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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / [Challenge] Traxler with 5.Bxf7+
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- - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-09-13 11:49
I'd be willing to take the black side after Bxf7 against anyone, I didn't find much there than normal positions and failed white plans. Remember than extra two pawns are sometimes not enough for a win. I'm not sure if I could draw it but I think Bxf7 is drawn with perfect play. Uly

I would like to try my skills in this variation with white pieces. Three days on a move (usually I try to move faster). (Of course, I will agree to anyone, not just Uly. :smile:)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+
r1bqk2r/pppp1Bpp/2n2n2/2b1p1N1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 5
Parent - - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-09-13 18:23
Btw, I'm going to play 6.Bc4 (after 5... Ke7 or 5... Kf8). It's my favourite.

It's interesting that no theory can be found about this move. Is it so bad?
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2011-09-27 02:38

>> It's interesting that no theory can be found about this move. Is it so bad?


Among Traxler enthusiasts, there's quite a lot of theory on 5...Ke7 6.Bc4 and the consensus is that black's in serious trouble. It's playable against 5...Kf8 but I don't believe it's the best option.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-09-28 13:40

> Btw, I'm going to play 6.Bc4 (after 5... Ke7 or 5... Kf8). It's my favourite.


Conditional accepted.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8

r1b1q2r/ppppk1pp/2n2n2/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-09-13 19:12

> (Of course, I will agree to anyone, not just Uly. :smile:)


Why not Uly?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-09-13 19:53
He means that this is not only a challenge for me, but against anyone. Of course I'll take the challenge if nobody else accepts, but my original idea was to pick up the challenge after the WBCCC round was over or something.

I can always adjourn one of my inactive games and go with this, of course.
Parent - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-09-13 22:32 Edited 2011-09-13 22:46
Uly, accept it when it's best for you!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-09-26 14:46
I'm officially accepting your challenge, now, let me prepare properly for this game.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-09-27 02:42
Fair warning: 5.Bxf7! is significantly less enjoyable for black than 5.Nxf7?! :grin:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-09-27 06:43
Is black in this game worse than white in the Halloween Gambit? If so, I'm in deep trouble :surprised:
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-09-27 08:00

> Is black in this game worse than white in the Halloween Gambit? If so, I'm in deep trouble


I believe so. Engines don't struggle with the Bxf7 lines like they do with Nxf7 or the HG so it's much more difficult to make progress. It's more positional and far less volatile than Nxf7 so you won't see anywhere near the number of favorable fail-lows you saw in your game vs TheHug. I haven't studied it enough to say with confidence if black loses by force but I've spent enough time to know that a draw would be a major victory for black.  And like I mentioned in the WBCCC thread, there's no doubt that 5.Bxf7 is superior to 5.Nxf7.  When all is said and done, I think you'll agree.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-10-30 02:51

>there's no doubt that 5.Bxf7 is superior to 5.Nxf7.


I once ran Idea on traxler for 3  months (on my i7 that burnt later ) and found Nxf7 better.
Do you have some lines that proves so ?.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-30 04:22
This is what Moz said on the thread that produced up all these Traxler challenges:

"There's something to be said for courage. I think the time control got the best of Jimmy.

The Traxler is such an interesting opening that's it's always a pleasure to watch. Best of all, it's an opening that shows us that engines are still capable of being humiliated. Any time I read forums posts where some overzealous engine lover with no sense of scale claims that chess will be solved in the near future I immediately think of openings like the Traxler.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kf1 Qe7 7. Nxh8 d5
8. exd5 Nd4 9. d6 Qxd6 10. Nf7 Qe7!! {The mother of all fail lows. Down a
rook and yet black has more or less equalized. Believe it or not, white has to
play careful from here on out or he runs the risk of losing. Chess is a beautiful game. } "

~Moz

Does your IDEA tree have that line?
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-10-30 04:57 Edited 2011-10-30 05:01
I had that Line in my IDeA tree. Whole thing starts after d6, whether you are white or black!!!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-30 05:13
I see. Well, in what way is 5.Bxf7 better? Do you have both moves as drawing but 5.Nxf7 gives white more chances for a win?
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-10-30 05:55
I saw that in both lines i.e. 5.Nxf7 and 5.Bxf7 was equal when an middlegame -endgame transition  is reached. But Nxf7 had slightly better scoring than Bxf7.
The main point I found was There was more chances black going wrong in Nxf7 than in Bxf7.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-30 06:30
I was afraid of that, but that would mean 4. Ng5 is busted and drawn, and I doubt we're yet at that point, probably Moz knows better.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-10-30 07:10

>4. Ng5 is busted and drawn


That is why i was running Idea for 3 months 12 x 7. But its not busted yet thats for sure. IF both play accurately its may be draw. I didnt analyse endgame where black was exchange down.
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2011-10-30 17:30

> Do you have both moves as drawing but 5.Nxf7 gives white more chances for a win?


No, after Bxf7 black will face a number of really uncomfortable endgames if white knows what he's doing. After Nxf7 black is nearly guaranteed at least a draw. With Bxf7, he's hanging on for dear life. 

The differences in computer terms are stark -- after Nxf7, the scores quickly converge on 0.  After Bxf7, the score will quickly approach 1.00 and constantly threaten to go even higher.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-10-30 17:19

>> I once ran Idea on traxler for 3  months (on my i7 that burnt later ) and found Nxf7 better.


I also spent considerable time analyzing the Traxler and my IDeA results are completely different. Bxf7 is clearly better in my opinion. That's an opinion shared by the Chesspub community, Kaissiber and nearly everyone else that's ever spent time serious analyzing the opening. Nxf7 is just bad for white.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-11-07 02:48
Its not the first time. I have many times analysed. I felt winning the exchange is the only way white can hold and that is what I found.
Losing the tempo with Bxf7+ although equally good I didnt find anything in IDeA running for 3 months with 120 secs and depth 1 settings. I used IA also. And I found both draw.
In chess pub many dont know how to analyse. They use Fritz 11/12 to analyse lol.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-07 05:59
After Moz beats me on this opening maybe you'd like to take your chance :lol:
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-11-07 07:24
Where Moz plays you ?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-11-07 07:38
Not where, when :lol:

In the future.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2011-11-07 08:46
Am waiting then!! :smile:
Parent - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-09-28 09:02
Cool! :)

No problem.
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-09-29 08:13
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3
r1b1q2r/ppppk1pp/2n2n2/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/2P5/PP1P1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQ - 0 7
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-09-29 16:12
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6

r1b1q2r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/2P5/PP1P1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-09-29 18:38
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. 0-0
r1b1q2r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/2P5/PP1P1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b - - 1 8
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-09-30 13:58
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8

r1b1qr2/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/2P5/PP1P1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w - -
- - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-01 09:44
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3
r1b1qr2/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/2P4P/PP1P1PP1/RNBQ1RK1 b - - 0 9
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-02 01:31
Lol, I spent so much time preparing for d3, Nf3, Be2, d4 and b4, and h3 got me out of my preparation :lol:
Parent - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-03 18:11
It is not good for h3. :smile:
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-02 11:31
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6

r1b2r2/ppp1k1pp/2np1nq1/2b1p1N1/2B1P3/2P4P/PP1P1PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w - -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-02 23:47
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4
r1b2r2/ppp1k1pp/2np1nq1/2b1p1N1/2BPP3/2P4P/PP3PP1/RNBQ1RK1 b - d3 0 10
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-04 01:17
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4

r1b2r2/ppp1k1pp/2np1nq1/2b3N1/2BpP3/2P4P/PP3PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w - -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-04 21:24
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4
r1b2r2/ppp1k1pp/2np1nq1/2b3N1/2BPP3/7P/PP3PP1/RNBQ1RK1 b - - 0 11
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-08 15:52
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4

r1b2r2/ppp1k1pp/2np1nq1/6N1/2BbP3/7P/PP3PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w - -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-10 17:21
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-15 00:51
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3

r1b2r2/ppp1k1pp/2np1nq1/6N1/2B1P3/2b4P/PP3PP1/R1BQ1RK1 w - -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-15 22:33
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-16 00:17
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6

r1b2r2/ppp1k1p1/2np1nqp/6N1/2B1P3/2P4P/P4PP1/R1BQ1RK1 w - -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-16 23:17
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3
r1b2r2/ppp1k1p1/2np1nqp/8/2B1P3/2P2N1P/P4PP1/R1BQ1RK1 b - -
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-16 23:45
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8

r1bk1r2/ppp3p1/2np1nqp/8/2B1P3/2P2N1P/P4PP1/R1BQ1RK1 w - -
- - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-17 00:35
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8 15. Re1
r1bk1r2/ppp3p1/2np1nqp/8/2B1P3/2P2N1P/P4PP1/R1BQR1K1 b - -


I offer a conditional 15.-- Bxh3 16.Nh4 Qg4 17.Qxg4 Bxg4 18.Ng6
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-17 04:20
I wonder what you have planned, the resulting positions seem quite defensible.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8 15. Re1 Bxh3 16. Nh4 Qg4 17. Qxg4 Bxg4 18. Ng6 Ne5

r2k1r2/ppp3p1/3p1nNp/4n3/2B1P1b1/2P5/P4PP1/R1B1R1K1 w - -
- - By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-17 08:50
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8 15. Re1 Bxh3 16. Nh4 Qg4 17. Qxg4 Bxg4 18. Ng6 Ne5 19. Nxf8
r2k1N2/ppp3p1/3p1n1p/4n3/2B1P1b1/2P5/P4PP1/R1B1R1K1 b - -


If 19.-- Nxc4 then 20.Ng6

My plans? They're classified. :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-17 19:28
I didn't really think you'd tell me your plans :lol:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8 15. Re1 Bxh3 16. Nh4 Qg4 17. Qxg4 Bxg4 18. Ng6 Ne5 19. Nxf8 Nxc4 20. Ng6 Nd7

r2k4/pppn2p1/3p2Np/8/2n1P1b1/2P5/P4PP1/R1B1R1K1 w - -
- By zaarcis (**) [lv] Date 2011-10-19 09:49
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8 15. Re1 Bxh3 16. Nh4 Qg4 17. Qxg4 Bxg4 18. Ng6 Ne5 19. Nxf8 Nxc4 20. Ng6 Nd7 21. Nh4
r2k4/pppn2p1/3p3p/8/2n1P1bN/2P5/P4PP1/R1B1R1K1 b - - 3 21
- By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-10-20 03:32
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. c3 d6 8. O-O Rf8 9. h3 Qg6 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Bxd4 12. Nc3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 h6 14. Nf3 Kd8 15. Re1 Bxh3 16. Nh4 Qg4 17. Qxg4 Bxg4 18. Ng6 Ne5 19. Nxf8 Nxc4 20. Ng6 Nd7 21. Nh4 Ke7

r7/pppnk1p1/3p3p/8/2n1P1bN/2P5/P4PP1/R1B1R1K1 w - -
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / [Challenge] Traxler with 5.Bxf7+
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