I dont know "c", but I would retract that. Because the perception could and should be that most anyone who had issues with any of the evidence would not be concerned so much about the "truth" as about "playing in fantasy-land". One of them would have been bad enough, where more than 1 could be a catastrophe. I seem to be getting the idea that the "real truth" did not have any business slowing the process down. And PLEASE do not tell me the answer to the question I will ask now is YES! Because if it is, as far as I am concerned, you can call the dogs on the whole deal. This would cause it to be tainted enough where any member should not want his name associated with it. Actually there are 2 questions. Both better be NO answers, but YES to the first question would make things "real iffy". YES to the 2nd question would be catastrophic for the panel.
Question 1: In the absence of Whittington (reasons not allowed), were any non-programmers on the panel?
Question 2: (Be real careful here) We know Whittington was absent, so did any non-programmers HAVE A VOTE?
gts
Question 1: In the absence of Whittington (reasons not allowed), were any non-programmers on the panel?
Question 2: (Be real careful here) We know Whittington was absent, so did any non-programmers HAVE A VOTE?
gts
![[us]](/mwf/v12/flags/us.png "United States")
In looking at the list, here are the panel members. I am putting a "=====================" beside the ones I would call non-programmers, although that is only a guess. But for "non-programmer" I am specifically applying that to computer chess programming, not programming in general. I have no real way of knowing who knows what in general. I have a better idea of who has worked on a chess engine, but I won't claim I know every author so this is only a guess that others might disagree with.
# Albert Silver [1]
# Amir Ban (author of Junior: World Champion 2002, 2004, 2006, World microcomputer Champion 1997, 2001)
# Charles Roberson (author of NoonianChess)
# Christophe Théron (author of Chess Tiger)
# Dariusz Czechowski (author of Darmenios)
# Don Dailey (author of Cilkchess, Star Socrates, Rex, Komodo)
# Eric Hallsworth (part of Hiarcs Team, Publisher of Selective Search magazine) ==========================
# Fabien Letouzey (author of Fruit)
# Frederic Friedel [2]==========================
# Gerd Isenberg (author of IsiChess)
# Gyula Horváth (author of Pandix, Brainstorm)
# Ingo Bauer (Shredder team)
# Jan Krabbenbos (Tournament Director of Leiden tournaments)=============================
# Kai Himstedt (author of Gridchess and Cluster Toga)
# Ken Thompson (author of Belle, World Computer Chess Champion 1980, Turing Award 1983)
# Marcel van Kervinck (author of Rookie)
# Maciej Szmit==================================
# Mark Watkins (MAGMA Computer Algebra Group, School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney)=============================
# Mark Uniacke (Hiarcs, World Microcomputer Champion 1993)
# Mincho Georgiev=====================================
# Olivier Deville======================================
# Omid David (author of Falcon)
# Peter Skinner (Tournament Director of CCT)================================
# Ralf Schäfer (author of Spike)
# Richard Vida (author of Critter)
# Richard Pijl (author of The Baron)
# Stefan Meyer-Kahlen (author of Shredder, multiple world champions in 1996-2007)
# Thomas Mayer (author of Quark)
# Tord Romstad (author of Stockfish, Glaurung)
# Tom Pronk (ProChess, Much)
# Vladan Vučković (Axon, Achilles)
# Wylie Garvin==============================
# Yngvi Björnsson (The Turk)
# Zach Wegner (author of ZCT and Rondo, which derived from Zappa, world champion in 2005, before Zach began working on it)
So, by my count, 9 out of 34 were at least non-chesss-programmers. Whether they know programming at all or not I don't know for everyone. Some are quite knowledgeable about programming in general, and assembly language specifically, like Garvin.
Every member of that group could vote.
# Albert Silver [1]
# Amir Ban (author of Junior: World Champion 2002, 2004, 2006, World microcomputer Champion 1997, 2001)
# Charles Roberson (author of NoonianChess)
# Christophe Théron (author of Chess Tiger)
# Dariusz Czechowski (author of Darmenios)
# Don Dailey (author of Cilkchess, Star Socrates, Rex, Komodo)
# Eric Hallsworth (part of Hiarcs Team, Publisher of Selective Search magazine) ==========================
# Fabien Letouzey (author of Fruit)
# Frederic Friedel [2]==========================
# Gerd Isenberg (author of IsiChess)
# Gyula Horváth (author of Pandix, Brainstorm)
# Ingo Bauer (Shredder team)
# Jan Krabbenbos (Tournament Director of Leiden tournaments)=============================
# Kai Himstedt (author of Gridchess and Cluster Toga)
# Ken Thompson (author of Belle, World Computer Chess Champion 1980, Turing Award 1983)
# Marcel van Kervinck (author of Rookie)
# Maciej Szmit==================================
# Mark Watkins (MAGMA Computer Algebra Group, School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney)=============================
# Mark Uniacke (Hiarcs, World Microcomputer Champion 1993)
# Mincho Georgiev=====================================
# Olivier Deville======================================
# Omid David (author of Falcon)
# Peter Skinner (Tournament Director of CCT)================================
# Ralf Schäfer (author of Spike)
# Richard Vida (author of Critter)
# Richard Pijl (author of The Baron)
# Stefan Meyer-Kahlen (author of Shredder, multiple world champions in 1996-2007)
# Thomas Mayer (author of Quark)
# Tord Romstad (author of Stockfish, Glaurung)
# Tom Pronk (ProChess, Much)
# Vladan Vučković (Axon, Achilles)
# Wylie Garvin==============================
# Yngvi Björnsson (The Turk)
# Zach Wegner (author of ZCT and Rondo, which derived from Zappa, world champion in 2005, before Zach began working on it)
So, by my count, 9 out of 34 were at least non-chesss-programmers. Whether they know programming at all or not I don't know for everyone. Some are quite knowledgeable about programming in general, and assembly language specifically, like Garvin.
Every member of that group could vote.
Bob, if each in your list had a vote, I am completely floored. Brush me off if you like, what do I know anyway. Look, catastrophic may not be strong enough to describe the trouble I see. What in the name of God were you- look, it makes me take a deep breath and look up and thank him that I was nowhere near this train wreck. I don't have a clue if Vas has seen this list, and it is way better if he never does.
Look, I think.... You gotta just be giving me this list as a sort of friendly joke, like maybe April's Fool, or something. Help me here. Show me the real list. I can understand now why the vote could be unanimous, if this is it. That had me bamboozled. Not hard to close my eyes and picture a unanimous vote now. Shit. This aint good. You got people with conflicting interests, one programmer I know that would have voted guilty if he slept thru the whole shit, 3 people at least who could have been shown a map of Norway and told it was code. You got the one person Vas trusted who turned the ultimate knife-in-the-back. Did they kill 2 birds with one shot- get him and the info at the same time? And I'm only stopping here because to go any further-which I could- is sorta useless. Look, if the same logic and reasoning were used on the judging & voting that went into picking the voters- you didnt sign the damn thing, I know. And if they didn't take any group pictures, it's your word ag. theirs. Try to scrap up anything left that might have your signature, and get the hell away from this bunch.
Christ,
gts
Look, I think.... You gotta just be giving me this list as a sort of friendly joke, like maybe April's Fool, or something. Help me here. Show me the real list. I can understand now why the vote could be unanimous, if this is it. That had me bamboozled. Not hard to close my eyes and picture a unanimous vote now. Shit. This aint good. You got people with conflicting interests, one programmer I know that would have voted guilty if he slept thru the whole shit, 3 people at least who could have been shown a map of Norway and told it was code. You got the one person Vas trusted who turned the ultimate knife-in-the-back. Did they kill 2 birds with one shot- get him and the info at the same time? And I'm only stopping here because to go any further-which I could- is sorta useless. Look, if the same logic and reasoning were used on the judging & voting that went into picking the voters- you didnt sign the damn thing, I know. And if they didn't take any group pictures, it's your word ag. theirs. Try to scrap up anything left that might have your signature, and get the hell away from this bunch.
Christ,
gts
George,
7 of the 34 members of the panel were people who had brought the original complaint against Vas, so I think that takes away some of the impartiality of the panel. On the other hand, Friedel of Chessbase, is one of the people who distributes Rybka (there are actually two Chessbase guys on the panel) , so having him there also is strange, but at least you figure Friedel was in a position to speak up for Vas.
7 of the 34 members of the panel were people who had brought the original complaint against Vas, so I think that takes away some of the impartiality of the panel. On the other hand, Friedel of Chessbase, is one of the people who distributes Rybka (there are actually two Chessbase guys on the panel) , so having him there also is strange, but at least you figure Friedel was in a position to speak up for Vas.
No one from Chessbase was on the panel - Albert Silver and Friedel were guests.
In the ICGA report, it lists them under panel members and says nothing about them being guests. Title of the report is "Rybka investigation and summary of findings for the ICGA."
If you go on to Talkchess you will see a post by Albert Silver directed specifically at that notation-where he makes it amply clear that he and Friedel were guests and not panel members. Why now would the ICGA continue to list them as panel members knowing that this according to Albert is not true?
Of course I don't know the answer to that. It's very interesting though and hopefully someone from ICGA will shed some light on this.
Did Mr Silver have anything useful to say on this whole issue? Where does Chessbase stand on this? They certainly have not said anything about this on their "news" page. Did Silver say why not?
Did Mr Silver have anything useful to say on this whole issue? Where does Chessbase stand on this? They certainly have not said anything about this on their "news" page. Did Silver say why not?
They did not say that when they joined the panel. The ICGA board as far as I know do not read talkchess so If they have a problem they should email David.
I find that hard to believe that you didn't even know who is on the panel and who wasn't ? What kind of operation were you running? 
what are you talking about. they applied to join and were accepted. After it was all over albert posted he was not really a member. He should email david and discuss being removed.
That isn't Albert's take -you need to take this up with him. Did he vote?
If he wants to be taken off the panel he can ask me or David. I have Albert on Skype and chat with him almost every day he has not mentioned it to me directly.
Fred also is on my Skype and he has not mentioned it either.
Fred also is on my Skype and he has not mentioned it either.
Did Albert Vote? Did Fred Vote? Were they told they had a choice to vote?
They were invited to vote.
So you knew they were guests and knowing their ties to Chessbase attempted to compromise them into being panel members and giving them a voting status? Fred was there to report and Albert to view?
you are a joke and can not read.
> you are a joke and can not read.
That's it Harvey go down get nasty now-come on!
if you can not understand that they joined the panel and then after it was all over albert posted somewhere they were only there to observe how were we supposed to know that when they joined?
No wonder Chessbase will have nothing to do with the ICGA panel's verdict in reporting. You almost compromised them! They must be pissed!
> They were invited to vote.
Now really....... since when is Frederic Friedel able to judge programmer stuff ?
Praise to Albert and Frederic they abstained.
I think the time has come to pick up my normal life again.
> Albert and Frederic they abstained.
Abstained?
If you could characterized the ICGA panel as a physical environment-
I'd say, Albert and Frederic, poked their heads in the door-saw what was going down -and put eggs in their shoes, and beat it the hell out of there!
You are totally ruining my diplomatic comment
Imagine they had voted "guilty" it would have been against their commercial interests. The "innocent" option is even worse, they would have been accused of 1) having commercial interests and 2) being not able to judge. Typical -/- situation.
Imagine they had voted "guilty" it would have been against their commercial interests. The "innocent" option is even worse, they would have been accused of 1) having commercial interests and 2) being not able to judge. Typical -/- situation.
I think that was the point of many non-votes. Most seem to be just like you. Too much trouble to actually read Zach's and Marks very long and technical presentations. And without reading and understanding them, voting would be senseless. So good for the ones that joined, then said "this is too much for me to deal with." We did not have subpoena power to demand participation. We did, multiple times, prompt everyone to vote on the final draft of the report. That's all we could do. Getting 14 agrees from a group with those technical skills was way more than enough.
Of course, I am sure people like Ken Thompson had an ulterior motive and wanted to "stick it to Vas" just like the rest of us supposedly did, right? I mean Ken has been competing actively in CC since Rybka came along and he was tired of losing to Vas just like the rest of us supposedly were? Etc.
The arguments used here are simply utter nonsense.
Of course, I am sure people like Ken Thompson had an ulterior motive and wanted to "stick it to Vas" just like the rest of us supposedly did, right? I mean Ken has been competing actively in CC since Rybka came along and he was tired of losing to Vas just like the rest of us supposedly were? Etc.
The arguments used here are simply utter nonsense.
Long tongue liar! That is what you have become, Bob, a long tongued liar.
http://youtu.be/6Bwfm7-uNS4
You can run on for a long time,
Run on for a long time,
Run on for a long time,
Sooner, or later, God'll cut you down.
Sooner, or later, God'll cut you down.
Go and tell that long tongue liar,
Go and tell that midnight rider,
Tell the rambiler, the gambler, the back biter,
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down.
http://youtu.be/6Bwfm7-uNS4
You can run on for a long time,
Run on for a long time,
Run on for a long time,
Sooner, or later, God'll cut you down.
Sooner, or later, God'll cut you down.
Go and tell that long tongue liar,
Go and tell that midnight rider,
Tell the rambiler, the gambler, the back biter,
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down.
That puny insult is the best you got? Glad to see you are finally scraping the bottom of your "barrel of crap".
Particularly when you have to resort to the old "God will get you one day" sort of threat. The end is near, as comments just don't get any more insipid than that.
Particularly when you have to resort to the old "God will get you one day" sort of threat. The end is near, as comments just don't get any more insipid than that.
You don't like Johny Cash? I'd think a back country boy like yourself would find some credence in the words of what he sings. You ought to take it to heart.
[edit] From Chris W.
"Bob Hyatt, you have been waving untruths at the citizens of comp chess for several weeks now in order to manipulate their view and condemn Vas. One of these untruths is particularly despicable - namely your repeated and repeated allegation that the PST tables, all of them, in Rybka consist of Fruit PST tables multiplied by a constant."
[edit] From Chris W.
"Bob Hyatt, you have been waving untruths at the citizens of comp chess for several weeks now in order to manipulate their view and condemn Vas. One of these untruths is particularly despicable - namely your repeated and repeated allegation that the PST tables, all of them, in Rybka consist of Fruit PST tables multiplied by a constant."
![[br]](/mwf/v12/flags/br.png "Brazil")
I already explained what took place, but will reiterate it as I've been asked about this numerous times, so once more for the record:
When I read about the investigative panel, it was my understanding that it was a fixed group of people (including yourself Harv) deliberating on the issue and examining the evidence, whatever it might be. I was linked some time later to a post in the Wiki where the debates were taking place, but could not access it. To do so, I was required to register to access the post, and of course found out that you were the moderator filtering who could or could not join. At no time whatsoever was it understood that I was joining the investigative panel, much less mentioned or suggested. I mentioned it to Friedel, with whom I work, who went through the same hoops and identical understanding. He actually took one glance at it, had no interest, and just asked me to explain it to him. I told him I read the one post, and explained that the Wiki was where it was being discussed, a private forum of sorts. When the conclusions were published it was a *shock* to discover my name (and his) listed as panelists condemning Vas.
You want to know whether I would like to have my name removed? I would. So would Fred for what it is worth, though he hasn't bothered to ask it as he thinks the whole thing is a bunch of bullocks anyhow.
That is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me ... my integrity.
As an aside, I do not blame you Harv, or the actual panel, for this, and believe it was just a gross misunderstanding and miscommunication, but those are the facts nonetheless.
When I read about the investigative panel, it was my understanding that it was a fixed group of people (including yourself Harv) deliberating on the issue and examining the evidence, whatever it might be. I was linked some time later to a post in the Wiki where the debates were taking place, but could not access it. To do so, I was required to register to access the post, and of course found out that you were the moderator filtering who could or could not join. At no time whatsoever was it understood that I was joining the investigative panel, much less mentioned or suggested. I mentioned it to Friedel, with whom I work, who went through the same hoops and identical understanding. He actually took one glance at it, had no interest, and just asked me to explain it to him. I told him I read the one post, and explained that the Wiki was where it was being discussed, a private forum of sorts. When the conclusions were published it was a *shock* to discover my name (and his) listed as panelists condemning Vas.
You want to know whether I would like to have my name removed? I would. So would Fred for what it is worth, though he hasn't bothered to ask it as he thinks the whole thing is a bunch of bullocks anyhow.
That is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me ... my integrity.
As an aside, I do not blame you Harv, or the actual panel, for this, and believe it was just a gross misunderstanding and miscommunication, but those are the facts nonetheless.
Hi Mr Silver, thanks for explaining that, and you just provided the forum material for discussion for at least two weeks.
Well, this is the first NOT GUILTY vote on an up to now "unanimous" verdict. If Mr Friedel was part of the panel, he is saying not guilty. If he wasn't, how can ICGA make the mistake of listing him as such? Either way, I think a whole can of worms has been opened. If I read between the lines correctly, Mr Silver is also saying "not guilty".
How about the other panel members? Do they even know they were listed as part of the panel??!! What kind of panel is this?
This is a game changer. I am not a lawyer, but doesn't this compromise the integrity of the whole "panel"?
>
> as he thinks the whole thing is a bunch of bullocks anyhow
Well, this is the first NOT GUILTY vote on an up to now "unanimous" verdict. If Mr Friedel was part of the panel, he is saying not guilty. If he wasn't, how can ICGA make the mistake of listing him as such? Either way, I think a whole can of worms has been opened. If I read between the lines correctly, Mr Silver is also saying "not guilty".
How about the other panel members? Do they even know they were listed as part of the panel??!! What kind of panel is this?
This is a game changer. I am not a lawyer, but doesn't this compromise the integrity of the whole "panel"?
You know, I'd love to know what you think your doing here. So far what I've seen is you playing both sides against the other!
>
> I'd love to know what you think your doing here
I love chess and I play a lot of chess. Once I saw the ICGA news, I decided to come over to this forum and take a look, see what everybody was saying. This also happened to coincide with an extended vacation, so I had time to read a lot of posts and I put in my two cents worth. I play chess online, couple of games, analyze them, then come over here, get caught up with the posts and go back to new games. I have no idea if Vas is guilty or not, and I could careless either way. I am not a partisan. My self esteem does not depend on whether he is proven guilty or innocent. Like I said, I just come here to relax a little and BS a little. I am sure my posts are totally worthless as are yours. Once I get back to work, I probably won't have a chance to even read anything here, much less post.
I do respect Dr Hyatt though. He is a living legend in computer chess as I said before. I don't hold the fact that he is a professor against him, in fact, I salute him for educating probably thousands of young people. Same goes for Harvey, he is a chess master and I believe a computer chess world champion. Same goes for everybody else.
Now getting back to the issue of the panel if I may. I think the panel has now been compromised. I am not saying the conclusions of the investigation were wrong, I am not saying the technical analysis was wrong (I wouldn't know that anyways), I am not saying there was a witch hunt. But I will agree to disagree with Bob and Harvey that the panel has been compromised. I think for their next investigation ICGA will make absolutely sure that the people who are on its panel actually know about it!
I don't think voting by proxy is allowed :) if Fred wants to say that he should do it himself.
Harvey, respectfully, isn't it just a little embarrassing to have people (owner of Chessbase no less) on the panel who didn't even know they were on the panel?
Harvey, elsewhere in a thread I alread asked you to supply me with the postal address of the ICGA and Dr. Levy. I asked for the address of Fabien too. -- Thanks. Until now you didnt reply.
Somebody else posted that here, already. All you have to do is look. I don't know why you can't find it with a simple online search...
i replied as did 2 other people.
Anyone think this might be the Chinmay?
I think you could be right maybe One of the mods can check his ip
What is Chinmay? Are you two talking about me? Are you asking the mods to check my ip? Hey, I gave you guys my real name, I live in the city of Visalia, California, USA. It's right near Fresno. I'll send Harvey my HOME phone number in a private message, I am not like the other guy who can't identify himself. I sure hope you guys weren't talking about me and not doubting my identity. Otherwise, I am gonna have to say there maybe something to this "witch hunt" theory. Am I gonna be the next guy you'll investigate?
That is what happens when you idol worship! You become suspect!
Robert,
were they talking about me? Who the hell is Chimnay? So they are gonna check my IP address? I can not believe this! You guys may be right about this witch hunt thing after all!
I already sent my real phone number to Harvey in a PM and I'll even publish it here in the forum if I need to. I hope this was just a misunderstanding.
were they talking about me? Who the hell is Chimnay? So they are gonna check my IP address? I can not believe this! You guys may be right about this witch hunt thing after all!
I already sent my real phone number to Harvey in a PM and I'll even publish it here in the forum if I need to. I hope this was just a misunderstanding.
I have no idea -no one from this forum. Why are you so worked up over what those two are spouting. If they don't come right out and suggest you directly then ignore. I certainly would not be giving out my personal info to anyone here.
I think he was joking, I think.
Whatever it was it has no relevance!
What was it for WBCCC or CORRES?
Have you been able to progress with your plans for introducing some top guys into the mix over yonder?
I am asking him about his panel and he jokes about checking my IP number? I don't get the joke. I am not Vas, If he tries to investigate me, I'll crush him. (maybe I am just joking too)
You won't have to worry about that, because he doesn't even get on this forum. It has been months since he has been on.
What that he gave his personal info- I don't think so! [edit] you're referencing Tom&Jerry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBMxCBIOtk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBMxCBIOtk&feature=related
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