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Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-15 19:25

> You are using an utterly twisted definition of "unique".


You are "twisted"! :yell::grin::lol:
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-15 19:33
you and banned must be clones.  Both seem to resort to personal attacks when you run out of technical arguments.  In the current discussion, you both ran out of technical comments before you ever started, in fact.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-15 20:08
Yeah! It is all about that MAGNIFYING GLASS approach - so  technical- that it misleadingly (and intentionally so) leads the eye to particulars and not the whole picture. You are good -but not that good!  People actually will believe that you are giving them the whole picture when you are only showing them a spot on a fleas ass that sits on a dog.   You are a true Bullshit Artist!
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-15 22:11
And you give them exactly nothing but nonsense.  So even in your terms, I do give more than you give...  think about it.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-15 23:36
There isn't anything there that demanded the kind of action taken by the ICGA that you have been trumpeting since the posting of the  petition to the ICGA.  There is no wonder  that you would have it regarded as nonsense and have people trying rather to imagine the flea circus of scientific data that you are pedaling in minutia as incontrovertible evidence that Rybka is not Unigue as a body of work and a very original chess engine. That questions the ICGA's motivation and yours to tear it apart to make the assertion that it wasn't .

Bob, when they found that it was in fact unique and original- as a body of work. They knew they made a very big mistake in listening to you. You are here to cover up at whatever it takes as long as it takes the bullshit that you started.  Good luck! Jack!     Your proof is as  I repeat a speck on the back of a fleas ass siting on a dog.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-16 06:26
I have no idea what you are rambling about.  We simply looked for, and found, code that was copied from another program, which violates ICGA rule 2.  It was that simple...
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [es] Date 2011-07-16 08:26
But Bob, you guys looked for "copied" or plagiarized code (as you guys ended up calling it) from an executable that did not participate.  I know you find nothing wrong with that, and that you are assuming that the version that participated is also dirty ... that is just a flawed process and a non starter.  You can't fill in the gaps as you wish if you want to have a fair and just outcome.  If FSF had gone through earlier Rybka's and decided that there was something wrong with earlier versions, at least you would have some ethical cover that this is not some biased panel making up their own rules to lynch someone.  But I am sorry but the entire process by the ICGA was flawed and will only make sense to those that have a grudge against Vas or have something to gain from belittling his contributions.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-16 14:49
I find it quite interesting that this has become about perceived flaws in the _process_, as opposed to erroneous conclusions.  Apparently, copying in Rybka 1.6.1 is irrelevant, somehow.  (ok sir, we discovered that you robbed 3 convenience stores on your spree, but we don't hold that against you, we are only investigating the robbery at the local "candy R us" store.  That's nonsense.

Vas made a statement to the ICGA inquiry in response to our early request for him to join.  Namely that "_all_ versions of Rybka were 100% original except for public domain snippets..."  Mark Watkins decided to verify that statement with respect to early versions, and 1.6.1 was the first that was examined.  And found to be not just a "little bit of copied code" but "a _lot_ of copied code."  But apparently when someone makes a statement to the panel, we are not allowed to verify the statement as true/false, "just because"??

I also find it interesting that this wholesale copying in 1.6.1, a version that was distributed to rating list testers, in direct violation of Crafty's license, is considered to be "irrelevant and OK because this happened 6 years ago." 

You, and others, seem to adopt the reasoning "Anything is OK here.  Rules don't matter.  Copyright/GPL does not matter.  Common ethics in Computer Science don't matter.  Whatever Vas does is OK, period.

Why you believe that is beyond me.  And beyond a _lot_ of other folks as well.  You might ask yourself "why?" 

What is even stranger is that "outsiders" (non-authors) want to dictate to "insiders" (authors that participate in ICGA events and other events that use their rules) how we ought to do things, how we should change the rules, how we should interpret the rules and how we ought to compete.  As if we cared what _they_ think about _our_ competitions and rules of participation.  If a group wants to form a golf association where you can't use woods, when a right-handed person can only use left-handed irons, and where you can only use a sand-wedge for putting, more power to them.  People that like the rules will participate, those that don't, won't.  And those that don't will _not_ be continually telling 'em that they should change their rules, they are unfair, they make no sense.  If a group of people want to participate in some sort of contest, the first thing that is required is rules, so that everyone knows what is allowed and what is not.   In a horse race, no motorcycles or cars allowed.  etc.  Once the participants define the rules that they all agree on, then they compete using those rules and all are happy.  The "outsiders" should have no expectation that they can dictate the rules when they do not even compete.

This has been just about the strangest situation I have ever seen, even though several others have been barred from competing, booted from tournaments, exposed in public, etc.  But "this" case is different.  why?  Because this is a forum of supporters, some of which simply refuse to accept that something _bad_ has happened.  And they keep trying to find reasons that the "bad behavior" was exposed for every possible reason under the sun, the process was flawed, the people were biased, the investigation was biased, completely ignoring the small fact that a major rule was broken and that this was proven beyond a doubt to those that understand computer chess programming.

Strange is not really the best word, but it fits...

There was no "lynch mob."  Each time Vas opened a door, we chose to walk through it to see what we might find.  It really was a simple and straightforward investigation that required some pretty decent technical skills to pull off.  This has nothing to do with a grudge, otherwise we would have done the same to Ken when he dominated, or to Hsu when he dominated.  There is no attempt to "belittle his contributions" although we have shown that much of his contribution was tainted by rules violations that gave him a significant competitive edge.  I would never look at his contributions in the same light as those of Slate, Thompson or Hsu, because _they_ didn't cheat.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2011-07-16 15:37

> I find it quite interesting that this has become about perceived flaws in the _process_, as opposed to erroneous conclusions.


Well, I think this means you're starting to make progress...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-16 15:56
"What cracker is this same that deafs our ears with this abundance of superfluous breath?

William Shakespeare
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-16 16:02
Are you posting about yourself?  You certainly _never_ offer any technical information or refutation...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-16 16:12
You have nothing Bob just -the same blow  hard presentments found with your MAGNIFYING GLASS  flea circus scientific data collecting bullshit process out to con most in seeing a speck on a fleas ass sitting on a dog- as some kind of revelation that a complete body of work was not original and unique. Give it up Bob.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-16 17:22
I have a +lot+ more than you do.  But being a non-programmer, you won't ever understand or accept that.  Which doesn't change a thing, anyway.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [es] Date 2011-07-16 18:32
The process has to be accurate and fair for an outcome to come that is plausible for all.  By that I mean that there is nothing wrong with due process, it is expected and required to be convincing ... otherwise we can reach a situation where things don't seem fair.  I wish you would take up the suggestion of contacting the FSF for a definitive response either way.  This would take you out of the loop and thus you would not have to bear all this questioning and it would come from the horses mouth.  It is nothing personal but you have to understand that this is not designed for authors only but rather for the general computer chess enthusiasts.  I know it must be frustrating to not be able to convince all of us, but you have to bear with us a little more.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-16 18:54
The FSF has been contacted (not by me).  Everything takes time, and computer chess programs is most likely not at the top of their priority list.  Whether they will react or not is unknown.  Whether they will prevail or not if they choose to act is also unknown.  But I think the probabilities will favor Fabien...

I have long understood that the RF is a user's group rather than an author's group.  The ICGA has always been an "author's group".  That was who founded it, and that is who sustains it.  The process has been an author's process.  The tournament is an author's tournament.  Trying to make it something else is a waste of time, as it is what it is.  For those that don't like what it is, that's simply too bad...

And should the FSF choose to follow up, the _same_ discussions would be here, only addressing how stupid they are for filing a court case, how little they know about copyright law, about how the GPL can't be enforced, and such.  And if they won, then it would turn to the judge in the case and how stupid he was, and how he didn't understand the copyright law or the prior opinions that have been issued.  In short, anything that is against "Rybka" is wrong...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-16 19:01

> Whether they will react or not is unknown. 


You mean they may not even take up the case - it is unknown whether they will bother with all of this?  And, if they don't- then the ICGA has created a monstrous mistake. And, if they should and if Fabien should not prevail in this-you have no case at all.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-16 19:27
How can I answer?  I am not a part of the FSF.  They will do what they will do, and we will find out about it only after they decide.

If FSF declines to bother, it has zero bearing on the ICGA action.  The ICGA, an organization of programmers, concluded that rule 2 was violated, based on the evidence, and that, as they say, it that...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-17 04:51

> How can I answer?  I am not a part of the FSF.  They will do what they will do, and we will find out about it only after they decide.


At least that is more than we could say about how the ICGA handled this affair! We all knew how that would turn out before it began, while it was in progress and no secret how it ended. That is at least one entity that you don't have your hands in.
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-17 16:03
There was certainly a high probability on how this would end, based on the long investigation that started about 5 years ago.  There was a high probability on how the Bernie Madoff case would end as well.  I suppose that wasn't a fair investigation either, in your world?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-17 02:53
And should the FSF choose to follow up, the _same_ discussions would be here, only addressing how stupid they are for filing a court case, how little they know about copyright law, about how the GPL can't be enforced, and such.  And if they won, then it would turn to the judge in the case and how stupid he was, and how he didn't understand the copyright law or the prior opinions that have been issued.

If the FSF chooses to follow up, the discussion will not be the same because people take the FSF very seriously. The same people don't take you or the ICGA seriously because you haven't run a serious investigation.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-17 03:58
Has nothing to do with the investigative process.  Has everything to do with who was investigated.  Just watch.  FSF gets involved, wins in court, the ICGA decision will _still_ be wrong...
Parent - - By Graham Banks (****) [nz] Date 2011-07-17 04:01

> Has nothing to do with the investigative process.  Has everything to do with who was investigated.  Just watch.  FSF gets involved, wins in court, the ICGA decision will _still_ be wrong...


Only if people are really really blind Bob.
Parent - By Watchman (***) Date 2011-07-17 07:45 Edited 2011-07-17 07:47
Well Graham...

that is just one symptom regarding "cult of celebrity"

which is the driving force behind the sheer lunacy of so many posts here.

Edit:

Just watch Alan, Nelson et al. do exactly what Bob said "stupid FSF... bunch of idiots"
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-17 16:04
That's a pretty accurate description based on the arguments I've seen _here_.

Facts are irrelevant.  It just _can't_ be true.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-17 05:33
Not a chance. People take professional organizations like the FSF and court systems very seriously. The ICGA just doesn't register as a professional organization.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-17 16:01
Eh?  They've published a journal for 35 years.  Organized conferences for 35 years.  Held computer chess events for 35 years.  One doesn't "register as a professional organization."  One could go through the LLC or other form of incorporation if there were tax issues.  I don't know if that was done or not, since the ICGA doesn't "make money".
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-17 17:49
Doesn't register as a professional organization meaning that it doesn't operate in a professional manner.

The FSF is a fine organization, created to serve the public interest with clearly stated goals and objectives. The ICGA is a lynch mob that wouldn't know due process if they tripped over it.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-17 19:47
I have seen others call the FSF the same thing.  Vigilantes.  etc.  All depends on which side of the law you are on, I suppose...

I doubt if the FSF will be called a "fine organization" here if they follow through.   Latest info says that at least Fabien intends to push it with them...  We'll see...
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-17 19:55
I'm sure whatever FSF decides to do will be fine. But you will probably be very disappointed because they have a history of trying to work things out, rather than relying on cheap publicity stunts.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-17 20:19
I'm not going to be disappointed nor elated, because it doesn't matter.  I didn't copy anything, and am therefore outside of that ugly box.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-17 20:21
I am sure that if the FSF takes it up, it will be settled amicably. This is the norm when people like you are not involved.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-18 02:15
There is no amicably with the FSF.  You conform to their rules, or sit in court.  Not a friendly "let's have a drink and chat about this at all."  You have no clue.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-18 04:36
Bullshit. They pride themselves on staying out of court. As they should. You are an idiot.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-18 05:29
Staying out of court does _not_ mean "amicable".

Lots of DA's "stay out of court."  But I doubt the people they are prosecuting and plea-bargaining with would call the process "amicable".

Try again.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2011-07-18 08:33
There's no state sponsored DA to prosecute the case. The FSF is reliant on pro bono hours from its legal staff, so having more common sense than Bob, they try to work out an amicable settlement, i.e. one agreeable to both parties. They succeed the great majority of the time. Given the minor nature of this matter, it's almost certain to be settled with a handshake.
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-18 14:52
I will say this one more time.  They do not work out an "amicable solution agreeable to both parties."  The infringer either complies with the GPL, or it goes to court, _period_.  If you call that "amicable" you don't understand the term.  They don't "agree" or modify the GPL or anything else.  The infringer either complies or is forced to do so.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-18 22:15
I wonder how your colleagues at UA would view your participation and comments regarding this issue if they had the opportunity?
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-19 01:56
I imagine they would not care, since the investigation was done by a group, not a single person, and I've been involved in CC long enough to be well-known enough for "most" to realize what _I_ am about.  Can't say the same for you, however, but that's yet another story.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-19 02:01
The way you handled your participation in this issue is ethically questionable.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-19 02:18
No, it isn't.  You can state that as many times as you want.  Won't make it true.  Won't even convince many to believe it.  But feel free to keep trying.  I doubt you have a real idea exactly what "ethics" means in this context anyway, because you _certainly_ are exhibiting none at all.  Copying is OK.  Etc...

righto...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-19 02:27
Don't you think that should have been left up to the FSF to decide first, Bob?
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-19 05:30
Why?  ICGA has an explicit rule.  They are responsible for their tournaments.  They are the ones to deal with participation protests.  What if the program Vas used was mine, which is not GPL?  Then the FSF would not step in at all.  The ICGA should just "sit around"?

Makes no sense.  Olympic committee did not sit around to wait to see if Ben Johnson was tried and convicted for some illegal substance use.  They acted once they had evidence to support them.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-19 05:40
You haven't read my last post-
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-14 02:25

> Because it is not original and contains parts of the program fruit.
>
> Now wasn't that simple???


Nothing is ever totally original!

Now wasn't that painlessly simple???

Probably not for you uh Bob!
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-14 02:30
Original as in "written by myself?"  Want to bet?
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-14 02:40
We are back to "your" interpretation.  I already said that you are full of shit bob! Don't you get it?
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-14 17:43
I do get it.  "shit" is about the only subject you know anything about.  Why that is, I can only imagine...

Do you know "jack shit" by the way?  Should be a close friend it would seem...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-14 18:08
Getting testy Bob! :grin:
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2011-07-14 18:21
Nope, just honest...

as always.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2011-07-14 18:17 Edited 2011-07-14 18:20

> I do get it.  "shit" is about the only subject you know anything about.  Why that is, I can only imagine...
>
> Do you know "jack shit" by the way?  Should be a close friend it would seem...


You happen to be the subject under discussion Bob! :eek:

I can sure recognize shit when I see it and you are it! So do I know Jack Shit! Haven't met him unless he's someone you intend to introduce me to and quite honestly anything you have to say may as well be coming from any Jack Shit!
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Support / My 2 cents on the Rybka - Fruit GPL violation (if any)
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