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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Mark vs National 12 The Cochrane Gambit
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- - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 22:08
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7
Parent - By Regularuser (***) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 07:32
I am sure I have seen a game of Bronstein playing the white side of this, but when I went looking for it a couple of years back I couldn't find it. 

Anybody know the game?
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-06-25 22:09
Predicting 0-1 here :lol:
Parent - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 22:12
Maybe?:twisted:
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 22:14
I want to get to the true depths of this line. The best way is to play someone like Paul.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 22:37
ok give me sometime as i have never played it,thanks for compliment i will play my best.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 22:41
4...Kxf7
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 23:53
5.d4
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 00:06
i am not convinced by book line on current position maybe 5...c5 is right atm i just dont know.it could be some time before i post.i understand why you wished to test line against me.likewise me getting you to test Morra.:smile:
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 17:47
5...c5
Parent - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 18:34
6.dxc5
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-06 22:25
i just cant believe that i have busted this line,as you appear to think.busted a well known line on move 5,come off it.i think you maybe made other errors,would welcome Nelsons input here.

see Marks later posts in this game.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2011-07-07 03:56 Edited 2011-07-07 04:03
4.Nxf7 is just unsound.  Historically it has been a 45.6% move with 16.7% draws; the latter low number ought to clue you into the fact that almost exclusively humans play it, and primarily at the club level.  The obvious move for white if they want to adopt a low-risk, high-drawing strategy (the two objectives go hand in hand) is 4.Nf3.  A head-slapper, huh?  Of course, it is played 96% of the time, and when a move is played that often there is generally a reason.

5.d4 is the best available move among a few bad ones, instantly answered with 5...c5 (your move), which has 62% success.  By white's 6th move all moves in book (9) are marked red--not playable.  Big trouble.  The only reason I say d4 is best among bad is in the event you're playing weaker humans, though!  Against engines, forget about it!

5.Nc3 is another choice; after 5...c5 6.Bc4+ Be6 7.Bxe6+ Kxe6 8.O-O white has a shot at drawing, though white's development at this point is pitiful.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-07-07 06:48

> The obvious move for white if they want to adopt a low-risk, high-drawing strategy (the two objectives go hand in hand) is 4.Nf3.


I think the clinical database approach to opening analysis completely misses the point of gambit chess. Sometimes we gambit players will play an unsound opening just to see if we can get away with it. Living dangerously and surviving to tell the tale is one of life's great pleasures. Gambit chess has a certain élan that many, myself included, find irresistible.

Having said that, I never play these sorts of openings in any game that actually matters. But here in the correspondence forum where there are no rating points at stake, why not?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2011-07-07 14:41
I think you nailed it when you call it a "clinical database approach".  That's exactly right.  Any opinions I might add are just adding color to what are, essentially, cold statistics about the past which completely omit relevant factors in the present. 

It's like saying "the disease you have has in the past had a 75% mortality rate within five years".  Well, yes, but what if there is now a cure for the disease (a novelty move or a seldom-seen line that leads you out of trouble or to victory)?

So I am the medical statistician while you are the doctor.  The doctor gets paid more.  Stick with it.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-08 22:10
thankyou for your detailed replies Nelson.i also think 5.d4 was whites best move and likewise 5...c5 was blacks best reply.i have offered to play white after 5.d4 hoping  i can draw at least.i am unsure if i can as i have to improve on Marks moves.Moz has accepted my challange and game will start next week.I am playing devils advocate here so wish me luck.

saying that i have no doubt that my game against Moz will enrich your book and for that reason alone is worth playing.turbojuice can be over confident at times and atm i do not accept  that 4.Nxf7 is a loss,maybe OTB but this is a different game.

best Paul.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2011-07-07 13:33
It's very simple: 4.Nxf7? loses.
Parent - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-07-07 13:44
It would seem your correct. Nxf7 is only good for blitz or OTB games.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-08 22:12
we will see.
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 23:07
take as long as you like.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 23:15
i notice 5.d4 is most popular line but other moves have been played.
Parent - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 23:56
I was going to play Nc3.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2011-06-25 23:45
But better take no longer than 8 days, he gets harsh then... especially when its his own move! ;-)
(see http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=341968#pid341968)
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 23:53
maybe you played best moves,i dont know.expect i will win.now that puts cat amongst pigeons.:smile:
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-25 23:55
I said sorry for that mistake no need to bring it up again.
Parent - By Turbo (***) Date 2011-06-26 00:03
Mark, was just kidding... :-)
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-06-26 21:27
Nah, white can draw.  The Cochrane Gambit is surprisingly sound. White's formidable pawn center is difficult for black to overcome.

That said, I think 5.Nc3 is the way to go and don't know much about 5.d4.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-02 22:50
hope you Cochrane Gambit fans are watching this game.:smile:
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-07-02 22:56

> hope you Cochrane Gambit fans are watching this game.:smile:


I lost interest after the dubious 5.d4?!.  I've analyzed the Cochrane Gambit extensively and 5.Nc3 is the only viable way to play in a game where engines are involved.  Topalov was right.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-02 23:02
i think you are wrong,5.d4 is ok,imho Mark made later errors.Anyway lets see what happens in game i havent won it yet.
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2011-07-02 23:05

> i think you are wrong,5.d4 is ok,imho


It might be okay but I think 5.Nc3 is clearly better. At least according to Idea. I don't think I'm alone in this opinion either. I vaguely recall turbojuice saying the same thing at one time (though I may be hallucinating...I'm too lazy to check)
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-06 23:00
i will take white against you in this gambit if you wish and try to prove 5.d4 is sound.:smile:only fun remember.And i expect no more than a draw,but if it helps with theory fair enough.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2011-07-07 07:04

> i will take white against you in this gambit if you wish and try to prove 5.d4 is sound.:smile:only fun remember.And i expect no more than a draw,but if it helps with theory fair enough.


I accept the challenge but we'll have to delay the start until next week.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-12 21:59
hi Moz,can we delay game until one of my WBCCC games has finished.i feel sure you would like me to play at 100% and find out more about Cochrane gambit.
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2011-07-12 22:06

> hi Moz,can we delay game until one of my WBCCC games has finished


No problem.

Good luck with your latest WBCCC games.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-29 22:47
even by move 15 i think i can bust Marks line in Cochrane Gambit.:smile:just hope i am right and havent missed anything.
Parent - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-30 20:38
I think you maybe right?
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-07-10 22:54
right again Uly.:smile:
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2011-07-11 10:34
Congrats Paul :smile:
- - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 21:03
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7 Kxf7 5.d4 c5 6,dxc5 d5

rnbq1b1r/pp3kpp/5n2/2Pp4/4P3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R w KQ - 0 7
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 21:38
7.e5
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 21:49
7...Ng4
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-26 22:33
8.Bc4
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 07:48
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7 Kxf7 5.d4 c5 6,dxc5 d5 7.e5 Ng4 8.Bc4 Be6

rn1q1b1r/pp3kpp/4b3/2PpP3/2B3n1/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ - 0 9
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 19:11
9.Nc3
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 19:58
9...Bxc5
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 20:14
10.Bxd5
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 20:27
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7 Kxf7 5.d4 c5 6,dxc5 d5 7.e5 Ng4 8.Bc4 Be6 9.Nc3 Bxc5 10.Bxd5 Bxf2+

rn1q3r/pp3kpp/4b3/3BP3/6n1/2N5/PPP2bPP/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 11
Parent - - By Mark Eldridge (****) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 20:51
11.Kf1
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2011-06-27 20:56
11...Bxd5
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Mark vs National 12 The Cochrane Gambit
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