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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs TheHug (Battle of the methods match -> OpenChess) (locked)
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Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-22 20:55
I think that dark square bishop is in good shape. :wink: Its kind of like the KID light square bishop. Were they say its worth 6 pawns, Because it is one of the main pieces in the Kingside attacks. In this case the dark square bishop can also do that here.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-22 21:53
Good Bishops are overrated (eh, last time I sacrificed a rook for one I lost the game).
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2011-04-23 08:44
Now you made me lose the game!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-23 21:06
:lol:
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-22 20:58

>  Anyway, I didn't check b3 at all, but at least, Jimmy had problems picking his move as well.


As promised I haven't looked at any openings books or databases. But experience tells me I'm heading in the right direction. I actually hope after this match, we get in a match were you can use one of your interactive methods.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-22 21:55

> I actually hope after this match, we get in a match were you can use one of your interactive methods.


Oh, I'm highly interacting with the position, I guess you mean one where I dig for human moves. These tend to explode (as I have long periods of time without a main move, and no move at time out) so it would get more complicated.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-22 22:00
Oh ok thanks for the explanation. To be honest I think your method is a decent one with the details you gave about it.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-22 22:16

> To be honest I think your method is a decent one


Hopefully, it's the best I can do in one hour! :lol:
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-22 08:36
Wow, 3 moves of the same score and one that was .01 less :eek: Jeez! Lucky I had just enough time (about 20 minutes) to interact with one positon that I thought was superior so I got it down a few cent-pawns.

Breakdown:

1. Make root moves-20 minutes

2. Make main lines- 2 hours 20 minutes

3. Interact with one line- 20 minutes

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7
- - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-22 23:27
ana.log:

Main move found in one minute, 5 seconds.
Nc3 found in 4 minutes.
Main engine falls from the carousel at minute 23 (this keeps occurring in this game, though in others it's something rare), where Nc3 becomes main move.
Nc3 is found best at minute 27. The engine that found 7.Qb3 (let's call it... Berserker) becomes main engine again.
Carousel over at minute 43, finally I can start building the pyramid.
Nc3 fails low at minute 47, calling the Hero for help.
Nc3 recovers at minute 52, where the Hero becomes main engine for next move.

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3

r1bq1rk1/pp1n2pp/2pbpn2/3p1pB1/2PP4/1QN2NP1/PP2PPBP/R4RK1 b - -
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-24 06:37
Well I changed my tactics a little bet this time. :smile: Instead of using time for making root moves and taking time to make 4 or 5 main line choices. Previous analysis(last sires of main line trees) told me that on this move there was more or less one move that was played a great amount of the time here. So I went a head and made that my main line move and did interactive work form that point on and found some interesting stuff. To give you some info as you have been stating your whole log. On the next white move there is only going to be a few choices so I picked 3 of them and the breakdown was like 15/25/60% this is making a rough guess. There was one move that was decent form the other two and had to figure it was your best move. There is a few points down the "Main" line that I had did some interactive work added a move or two I thought was decent or interesting. And finally at the end of it I feel very comfortable in my position.

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6

I guess you can see why I didn't do a lot of work in the beginning if I choose this move. :smile:

Phase 1- After ..9.h6 I set 3 root moves for whites next move. (5 minutes)

Phase 2- Make main lines for 3 root moves. (1 hour)

Phase 3- Spent the rest of the time interacting with the lines thought DPA. (1 hour 55 minutes)

r1bq1rk1/pp1n2p1/2pbpn1p/3p1pB1/2PP4/1QN2NP1/PP2PPBP/R4RK1 w - - 0 10
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-24 21:54

> To give you some info as you have been stating your whole log.


Thanks Jimmy. Yeah, since you're going to provide the whole tree at the end of the game, I felt I had to provide as much info as I could :wink:
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-24 22:59
Yeah I had talked about this. And it will be a BIG tree at that. :lol: I don't have to much trouble for giving you the file. You probably can't prepare much with it as the settings can change at many points in the game. Pobably just making a file for it and attaching it here. If you wish me to give more details after the game about points in tree on how I got to a score. I would be willing to share :smile: part of this is a good learning experience for others to learn another interesting style of play. I may want to check the tree before I give it out just to make sure all the score are there. There was a couple of times that when I change the Main line, I came close to deleting the score.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-24 23:01
Sure. I'll wait till the end of the game to see the tree, now it could get distracting :wink:
- - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-25 00:23
Man, these variations are fun! :yell:

ana.log:
2 main moves found in Ponder Hit, the Hero starts building pyramid for the first one.
First floor built at minute 13, starts Ping Pong between Hero and Berserker.
Berserker defeats the Hero at minute 24, pyramid destroyed, a third move becomes main.
The Hero fails low and is kicked to last position of engine ordering at minute 28. Starts Ping Pong between Berserker and the Lancer for second main move (Bd2).
Bd2 is found best at minute 40.
Lancer defeats Berseker at minute 42 (what is going on?), back to carousel...
Bd2 fails low at minute 47, Lancer falls from carousel...
Bd2 is rescued by Berserker at minute 51.
Berserker finds key move and becomes main engine at minute 52.
Carousel over at minute 60 :lol:

I'm having problems, all these events and move flip flopping are abnormal, I guess the engines have problems understanding the positions.

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2

r1bq1rk1/pp1n2p1/2pbpn1p/3p1p2/2PP4/1QN2NP1/PP1BPPBP/R4RK1 b - -
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-25 00:40

>  I'm having problems, all these events and move flip flopping are abnormal, I guess the engines have problems understanding the positions.


Yeah it is a bit weird. I wonder what others are seeing on there engine outputs. :lol:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-25 00:47
Ya, it's the first time I have three engines fighting like that to lead the game, at least I don't have 4 :lol:

I should probably think about an analysis method like Ping Pong but for 3 engines, for these situations. If an engine is going to fail low it has to do it ASAP, engine ordering shouldn't be this critical (40 minutes to find the best move seems unreasonable when it came from ponder hit).
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-25 00:50
There is always something to learn. Really glad we chose this opening, I can probably see why HEM could win this kind of opening with black. :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-25 01:01

> Really glad we chose this opening


Yes, it's as flexible as it gets!
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-25 20:48
1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7

r1bq1rk1/ppbn2p1/2p1pn1p/3p1p2/2PP4/1QN2NP1/PP1BPPBP/R4RK1 w - - 0 11


Phase 1-Search for root moves

Phase 2-Made lines for root moves.

More are least the same as previous moves. But the last one.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-26 01:22
Key move (Bf4) found in Ponder hit. Starts carousel. The Hero finds transposition to pyramid's floor, skipping to Ping Pong Berserker vs. The Hero. The Hero explodes, back to carousel. Carousel over, but I can't construct a new pyramid with the old one in there, so it's back to Ping Pong. Time out.

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7 11. Bf4

r1bq1rk1/ppbn2p1/2p1pn1p/3p1p2/2PP1B2/1QN2NP1/PP2PPBP/R4RK1 b - -
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-26 02:14
Well met, this is the best move. And my move is close to being force maybe not completely. But

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7 11. Bf4 Bxf4

I know what your next move will be so this will be the current position I'm looking at.

12.gxf4

r1bq1rk1/pp1n2p1/2p1pn1p/3p1p2/2PP1P2/1QN2N2/PP2PPBP/R4RK1 b - - 0 12
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-26 04:41
Oh yes, I'm basically going to get 2 hours for next move, they will come in handy.

(Note that we just transposed to 10.Bf4 Bxf4, so Bd2 was just a kind of trap, in case you played something different from Bc7 or Bb8)
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-26 04:47
Well I tried to look for something besides Bc7 or Bb8 (Mainly Bc7) And didn't like the positions at face value.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-26 04:50
Well, worth a try! :wink:
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-26 04:53
I'll have my move ready in an hour or so I think.
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-26 06:45
Move to the left.
Parent - - By CumnorChessClub (***) Date 2011-04-26 06:17
I some times get this type of position as Black in my OTB games, so I will be watching this closely.
Hopefully I will pick up some ideas from this game for Black :wink:
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-26 06:22
I'm trying Kevin :smile:, Its not easy, but DPA is an interesting method.
- By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-26 06:56
1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7 11. Bf4 Bxf4
12. gxf4 Ne4

Phase 1- Looked for root moves (15 minutes)

Phase 2- Look at 3 moves to make main lines.

Phase 3- Interactive in 2 lines.

Phase 4- Spent a decent amount of time to interact in the main line.

I reach a position that was eval dead equal, but still didn't have enough time on to found a line that was giving an advantage to my side.

r1bq1rk1/pp1n2p1/2p1p2p/3p1p2/2PPnP2/1QN2N2/PP2PPBP/R4RK1 w - - 0 13
- - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-30 00:13
Just for clarification, you took 3 hours total for 11...Bxf4 and 12...Ne4 instead of 3 hours for each move, right? Which means that for being equal I'm taking one hour total for my 12th (forced) move and my 13th move, instead of 1 hour for each.

ana.log:

:00 ~ Main move found in Ponder Hit. Begins carousel.
:02 ~ Rac1 found.
:07 ~ Lancer falls from carousel.
:16 ~ Hero falls from carousel (at last the main engine didn't!). Pyramid destroyed.
:28 ~ Main move fails low. Dragon engine found (:surprised:).
:31 ~ Main engine falls from carousel (:sad:). The Dragon becomes new main engine (:eek:). Rac1 is found best.
:37 ~ Main line fails low.
:44 ~ Main line recovers.
:49 ~ Carousel over. The Dragon begins new pyramid construction.
:59 ~ Main line fails high.
:60 ~ Time out.

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7 11. Bf4 Bxf4 12. gxf4 Ne4 13. Rac1

r1bq1rk1/pp1n2p1/2p1p2p/3p1p2/2PPnP2/1QN2N2/PP2PPBP/2R2RK1 b - -


It's bad when The Dragon leads the game, as that tends to lead to self-refutation (finding lines that are good for you instead of promising lines for me), but at least your move isn't easy now.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-30 06:03

>  Just for clarification, you took 3 hours total for 11...Bxf4 and 12...Ne4 instead of 3 hours for each move, right? Which means that for being equal I'm taking one hour total for my 12th (forced) move and my 13th move, instead of 1 hour for each.


Yes because I knew there was nothing you can play, but gxf4 if I played Bxf4 just for forward reference. Maybe can give a heads up on this or something. Whatever you think is best.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-04-30 07:24
It's fine how things happened, our clocks are in sync.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-04-30 06:15

>  but at least your move isn't easy now.


I agree with this someway, I think I know what the best move for me will be with about 85% of knowing for sure. Keep in mind I haven't started the process yet. But I think Rac1 is a good move.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-05-09 23:50
Hey Jimmy it's your turn. :wink:

:wink:
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-09 23:55
Yeah I know, I'll post a move tonight. A early bird special, I believe we are both central time. So its almost 7 PM there? I will post at like Midnight or so. I just have been busy, clearly sometime up for the next round. Plus been liking about other things.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-05-10 00:12

> So its almost 7 PM there?


Yeah. And take your time, that's why we agreed that the analysis hour could be taken at any time, I just, couldn't resist :lol:
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-10 03:15
It will be a little longer I have to make the game threads for this next round. After I will work with my analysis.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-12 05:24
1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7 11. Bf4 Bxf4 12. gxf4 Ne4 13. Rac1 Kh8

Interesting analysis here, I actually rejected a couple of first choice moves and ended up with a move that doesn't seem considered. Will see how this goes.

Looked for roots moves- About 10 minutes

Worked on main lines for the top 3 moves- 1 hour 30 minutes

Finally rejected what I seen and used the rest of the time to look at Kh8 which was one of my "interesting" moves to look at.- 1 hour 20 minutes ~

I wasn't over. I was more likely a minutes behind.

r1bq1r1k/pp1n2p1/2p1p2p/3p1p2/2PPnP2/1QN2N2/PP2PPBP/2R2RK1 w - - 0 14
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-05-12 23:01
Surprise move, whoa! Kh8 wasn't in my 10 best expected moves.
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-12 23:19
Will see what happens. I have made some surprise moves before. :smile:
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-14 07:47
I wonder if you wish you had extra time on this next move. :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-05-14 07:57
Nah, it's not really different from starting from this position :wink:

rnbqkb1r/ppp3pp/4pn2/3p1p2/2PP4/5NP1/PP2PPBP/RNBQK2R b KQkq -
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-14 08:04

> Nah, it's not really different from starting from this position :wink:


Not sure were your getting at unless you mean this looks drawish.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-05-14 09:19
I mean, the part where I needed to start from scratch, as I had nothing for Kh8, or, that's what I thought :smile:

:00 ~ Begins carrousel (no main engine).
:01 ~ Rfd1 and main move found.
:07 ~ Main move is refuted.
:23 ~ It's found that Rfd1 transposes to the old Hero's pyramid from move 10 that, huh, I keep having to destroy :yell: - So, I didn't check Kh8 at all, but the resulting positions transpose to old analysis. Rfd1 becomes main move. Berserker becomes main engine.
:43 ~ Berserker is refuted, the Dragon becomes new main engine :sad:
(Around here the Lancer gives a great show, almost making me change move choice).
:54 ~ Carrousel over. Begins new pyramid construction over the old one (they complement).
:55 ~ Rfd1 fails low, out of nowhere Qc2 becomes main move.
:60 ~ Lancer refutes Qc2 just in time!

So this was a last minute move decided on the last seconds (though it was on the radar most of the time).

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. O-O c6 7. Qb3 O-O 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Nc3 h6 10. Bd2 Bc7 11. Bf4 Bxf4 12. gxf4 Ne4 13. Rac1 Kh8 14. Rfd1

r1bq1r1k/pp1n2p1/2p1p2p/3p1p2/2PPnP2/1QN2N2/PP2PPBP/2RR2K1 b - -
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-14 09:29
So up to this point, what do you think of DPA? I guess part of this is on me. But this is a pretty interesting position to say the least.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-05-14 09:48
DPA and these positions are giving me a hard time, it's uncomfortable to have 10 minutes left and not be sure of the best move, not to mention when I have 30 seconds left!
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-14 09:30

>  I mean, the part where I needed to start from scratch, as I had nothing for Kh8, or, that's what I thought :smile:


Oh ok now I understand. :smile:
Parent - - By Chaotic Chess (****) Date 2011-05-14 21:17

> The Hug


Will you use DPA exlusively on our game in WBCCC? :twisted:
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) Date 2011-05-14 21:27
Probably not friend. :smile: Most likely IA + DPA. Be careful what your wish for. I may have a couple of nasty opening ideas for own upcoming game myself. :twisted:
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Uly vs TheHug (Battle of the methods match -> OpenChess) (locked)
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