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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / My reaction: Hiarcs forum and to Chess Vibes' open letter
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Parent - By bob (Gold) Date 2011-03-09 21:51
Easy.  The issue is "plagiarism" and that has been shown to be a clear violation, based on ICGA tournament rules.  Not to mention the minor issues of copyright and GPL.
- - By siam (**) Date 2011-03-04 09:12
Ok now we know Jeroen his thoughts about it.
But what we really like to know is Vas opinion.
He is the accusee...

I have a simple question for him: is there a truth in the letter or is it all nonsense.

It is just as easy as that.

Regards
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2011-03-04 14:10
I think Vas has been very clear on this and will not react on any public forum, if at all.
Parent - - By siam (**) Date 2011-03-04 14:32
I am not sure about this, I cannot find any statement of him (Vas) about this peculiar letter.

I bought the Rybka series and I like the Rybka series and I want to know if the allegations are true.
Did I payed my hard earned bucks for a program that was partially copied?

A simple yes or no please.
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2011-03-04 14:42
There is no simple yes or no.
Check the Chessvibes website with the original Levi article, a response from Vas to David is quoted there.
Parent - - By Indrajit (***) Date 2011-03-04 16:47
Yeah, the original website was not opening - so I opened the cached one instead. Vas himself admits he went through the Fruit code and took many things from it. Is there anything else he needs to say?
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2011-03-04 18:42
Is that a rhetorical question? He already said as much years ago.
The whole issue focuses on copying code vs building on existing ideas, which all chess programmers have done.
I don't have the answer, but there is nothing new under the sun other than the ICGA now turning it into a big publicity stunt and casting doubts on themselves as to how unbiased they are as the 'neutral' computer chess body.
Parent - - By POSITRON (**) Date 2011-03-04 16:16
i have 2 child, when something is broken in the house i normally aks they if they did it,  and they normally dont respond when they are guilty.

i dont know if this is same case, but know expresions that saids something like this:   "silence implies o gives consent"

Manuel
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-04 19:52
Manuel, are you willing to make an extraordinary effort with me?
First, let's seperate two different issues.

A.) in a legal court trial Vas is asked some questions:
     Vas will answer like he answered some questions from David Levy,
      who is a nice guy.

B.) in a lynch justice people ask questions like
     "Vas, when did you slap your mother into her
     face for the last time"?

Could you tell me how you could answer the dirty allegation in Question B)?
Am I right if I argue that if Vas would answer such a dirty question that he would
agree that he usually slaps his own mother??

Let me teach you another lesson. There are not so nice people in our scene
who insult others like Vas, that he's this or that, just because he's the Champion,
you know what I mean, they are eaten up by their envy. And then the same people continue 
by asking Vas to defend himself, to show that he's innocent.

In our Law there is no obligation that you must
defend yourself in private lynch courts.

It's better to simply ignore such insults. If David Levy and his Tribunal
had honest questions, they would enter a court so that the questions
out of a yearlong campaign could be clarified.

But they dont want to do it, because they know that Vas
had all the right to ignore private lynch questions, because
these are not asked out of honest interest but with the
idea to defame and humiliate a decent Champion.

As I said Vas had answered Levy's questions. Know what? Instead
that Dr. David Levy continued to ask more questions, he accepted that
his most important aids like Prof. Hyatt said that Vas didnt answer
the questions at all. Perhaps this shows what a strong authority
the President of the ICGA really has. He asked questions that got
no answers and then he created a Tribunal to join the movement of
Champion Bashing.

Only fools would be interested to answer private lynch questions
if the hidden policy isnt Finding Justice by the Law  but
Intensifying the Campaign with Private Lynch Justice.

In German we have a saying by Friedrich Schiller 1759-1805:

The best man cannot live in peace if it doesnt please his evil neighbor.
Parent - By DeletedAccount (**) Date 2011-03-05 08:00
"Let me teach you another lesson."

Polite, fair, objective, wise and omniscient - impressive!
Parent - - By POSITRON (**) Date 2011-03-05 15:29
Hi, First you have nice name too, can i have your real ? i feel in disaventage :grin:

/Manuel, are you willing to make an extraordinary effort with me?
/First, let's seperate two different issues.

/A.) in a legal court trial Vas is asked some questions:
/ Vas will answer like he answered some questions from David Levy,
/who is a nice guy.

/B.) in a lynch justice people ask questions like
/"Vas, when did you slap your mother into her
/face for the last time"?

/Could you tell me how you could answer the dirty allegation in Question B)?
/Am I right if I argue that if Vas would answer such a dirty question that he would
/agree that he usually slaps his own mother??

i think you are not right here, but i respect your opinion.
also i think vas will respond soon or later no matter was dirty or not dirty questions.
also when you get dirty questions is more easy to defend yourselft relate to that dirty questions no?   i mean while more dirty the quesion more easy to defend, the dificult begin when the questions are justifed ones, thats is a problem for defend.

/Let me teach you another lesson. There are not so nice people in our scene
/who insult others like Vas, that he's this or that, just because he's the Champion,
/you know what I mean, they are eaten up by their envy. And then the same people continue
/by asking Vas to defend himself, to show that he's innocent.

Well, thanks, i liked very much lesson, i am always dispose to learn from it, by the way do you have more lessons there i am interested... :grin:

/In our Law there is no obligation that you must
/defend yourself in private lynch courts.

/It's better to simply ignore such insults. If David Levy and his Tribunal
/had honest questions, they would enter a court so that the questions
/out of a yearlong campaign could be clarified.

/But they dont want to do it, because they know that Vas
/had all the right to ignore private lynch questions, because
/these are not asked out of honest interest but with the
/idea to defame and humiliate a decent Champion.

is my opinion that here you are a litler confuse, lets clarify:  (i am polite like you :lol:)

1) if i acuse or insult vas, vas can ignore and smile, nothing happend, but when the 90% of word best chess programers and others are aporting evidence and acused him, also when the most important computers chess institucions is taking part in whole thing then you have to admid that Vas had to defend.   i am not telling you the way vas have to do that, but soon or later he have to take actions for defend himselft.

2) about if the acutations and proof are strong, valid or not, well we will see it in near future, in both case vas have to respond in my opinion.

3) about enter a court, i dont know your experience in that part but mine said that normally both part try to clarify matter with out court, and if not agreement reach then the matters translate to court.  maybe in your country this procedure is diferent.  :grin:


/As I said Vas had answered Levy's questions. Know what? Instead
/that Dr. David Levy continued to ask more questions, he accepted that
/his most important aids like Prof. Hyatt said that Vas didnt answer
/the questions at all. Perhaps this shows what a strong authority
/the President of the ICGA really has. He asked questions that got
/no answers and then he created a Tribunal to join the movement of
/Champion Bashing.

well you write: "Perhaps this shows what a strong authority the President of the ICGA really has ", the problem here is : "perhaps"  i explain with the follow example:

"perhaps i am an alien who knows"    got it?  (i am again polite like you  :lol:)

/Only fools would be interested to answer private lynch questions
/if the hidden policy isnt Finding Justice by the Law but
/Intensifying the Campaign with Private Lynch Justice.

same response as paragraphs before.

/In German we have a saying by Friedrich Schiller 1759-1805:

/The best man cannot live in peace if it doesnt please his evil neighbor.

Great, here in this last 2 lines we are completely agree!!!   :lol:  also i like friedrich schiller the friend of Goethe
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-05 20:46
[quote]normally both part try to clarify matter with out court, and if not agreement reach then the matters translate to court. [/quote]

There is no agreement between the lynch justice people and the World Champion. The difference between lynch justice and court trial is the Law. Lynchers normally dont seek support by a court. Either they are anons or they must fear the verdicts for their own criminal activities.

The five year long dirty campaign, software theft and its publication, anonymous programs on the base of the stolen stuff, the arbitrary examination of just one single commercial program, now the tribunal by the commercial competitors whose programs were never examined, all this is against the Law.

Excuse me, it's strange that smart people like Levy or Hyatt should believe that they could find a judge who accepted that sort of case. Lawyers must make money, so they wont avoid suing Vas that's for sure. May nobody accuse me of not having warned in time about the nonsense of the lynchers. It will cost them a lot of money and probably a big part of their head, they will lose face!
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2011-03-05 20:57 Edited 2011-03-05 21:00

> now the tribunal by the commercial competitors


The list who signed and the members of the panel seem like a good balence betweem commercial, non commercial and on the panel 2 programming experts now with no direct Chess experience.

> all this is against the Law


Are you a lawyer?
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-03-05 21:47 Edited 2011-03-05 21:49
Harvey,

What are you worried about? If you are so, absolutely, sure of what it is you and this panel are doing-then go do the nasty.  A great many people are not convinced that this is at all justified. That's  just the way it goes.  I don't care how many experts you have and what the balance you deemed appropriate for the verdict of guilty that it won't stick in the craw and gag so much as it goes down- It's okay! You certainly didn't need anyone to qualify what has transpired so far, why start now?
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-03-05 22:54 Edited 2011-03-06 02:32
Harvey - (thank you lord B.  for code. that made this Eulogy possible.)

Hipsters, flipsters, and finger-poppin' daddies,
Knock me your lobes,
I came to lay Vas out,
Not to hip you to him.
The bad jazz that a cat blows,
Wails long after he's cut out.
The groovey is often stashed with their frames,
So don't put Vas down.
The swinging Panel hath laid a story on you
That Vas was hungry for power.
If it were so, it was a sad drag,
And sadly hath the Vas cat answered it.
Here with a pass from  Levy and the panel,
For Levy is a worthy stud,
Yea, so are they all worthy studs,
Though their stallions never sleep.
I came to wail at Vas’ Verdict (even before the trial).
He was Cool cat, and gave us much.
Yet Levy digs that he has eyes for power,
And Levy is a solid cat.
It is true he hath returned with many freaks in chains
And brought them home to Cluster .
Yea, the looty was booty
and hipped the treasury well
Dost thou dig that this was Vas’ groove
For the putsch?
When the cats, on the list, with the empty kicks hath copped out,
Yea, Vas hath copped out, too,
And cried not up a storm.
To be a world grabber a stiffer riff must be blown.
Without bread a stud can't even rule an anthill.
Yet Levy was swinging for the moon.
And, yea, Levy is a worthy stud.
And all you cats were gassed on the WCCC
When he came on like a king freak.
Four  times was laid the kingly wig on him,
And why should he put it down.
Was this the move of a greedy hipster?
Yet, Levy said he dug the lick,
And, yes, a hipper cat has never blown.
Some claim that Levy’s story was a gag.
But I dug the story was solid.
I came here to blow.
Now, stay cool while I blow.
You all dug him once
Because you were hipped that he was solid
How can you now come on so square
Now that he's being tapped out of WCCC-
The Chess Community has flipped
And swung to a drunken zoo
And all of you cats are goofed to wig city.
Dig me hard.
My ticker is in Rybka there with Vas,
And, yea, I must stay cool til it flippeth back to me.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 02:27
OUTSTANDING!  I know Lord Buckley's riff almost by heart and consider it one of the great comedic achievements of all time, his rendition of Marc Antony's funeral oration in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar!  And you did so well in transmuting Vas into the (character-)assassinated Caesar and Levy into Brutus!  Very appropriate!

One minor thing, "and hip the trays we weld" is incorrectly transcribed.  It ought to read "and hipped the treasury well".  And Vas did indeed hip the treasury well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw1eSo8-Zns&feature=related

Here's the man sparring with Groucho Marx.  Buckley cites the first few lines of this masterpiece. 

Did you know Buckley performed in front of Al Capone and his capos in his youth?  One of his patented pranks was to ask the gangster molls to pile all of their fur coats onto the stage.  He then unexpectedly (but deliberately) set the furs on fire!  There was bedlam as the women were outraged and their gangster-boyfriends were chasing Buckley around.  Capone supposedly split a gut laughing.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 02:32 Edited 2011-03-06 02:37
Made the correction! (I knew there was a question mark there for a reason) No, I had no idea- but I do know Enrico Caruso did.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 03:23
You were right! It wasn't Caruso-Capone might have crossed paths with him at Colosimo's Cafe when he first arrived in 1920.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 05:55
Buckley was 15 years old in 1920.  This must have been 1929-30, just before Capone was put in The Rock in 1931.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 06:05
I'm probably off he mark here- It occurred to me that jive is to the written word as scat is to jazz!?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 06:44
Scat singing, as you probably know, was first recorded by Louis Armstrong in 1926 in the tune "Heebie Jeebies".  Louis pretty much started jive as well, bringing to popularity such jive words as "cats" and "swing".  This spoken idiom was popularized by black jazz men from the late 1920s and was continually elaborated for the next 20 years or so. 

Cab Calloway sang a few jive tunes which are still enjoyable to hear such as "(Hep-Hep) The Jumping Jive" and "Are You Hep to the Jive?"
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-06 10:58 Edited 2011-03-06 11:15
Thank you guys for leading my attention in Europe to this marvelous fellow whose roots came from Cornwell, England and whose death in 1960 caused the USA to close another chapter of their evil lynch justice climate of bigotery and censorship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Buckley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Cabaret_Card

In return I want to inform you about an example for the true background of a public "Tribunal" which was created by another Englishman and Lord. Talking about Bertrand Russell and his "War Crimes Tribunal On Vietnam" in 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Tribunal

That Tribunal was held because of the censorship of the USA Government and Military who didnt want to be held responsible for their War Crimes in Vietnam. So, such a Tribunal is a form of civil resistance against the medial silence about crimes against humanity.

The Lynch Tribunal of Dr. David Levy against a World Champion, artist, sportsman Vas Rajlich is itself a crime by an organization, a private club whose President  (Levy) is mainly organising international sites for the yearly dinner event. Once it was held in Jakarta during a war that cost thousands of massacred victims in East Timor. No matter where the computers played chess, Levy disabled the correct transmission of the moves. His philosophy is 'dinner instead of playing chess'. He could have lived this way forever, satisfaction guaranteed. Now he's called "The Lyncher".
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 14:07
While we agree on the matter of the ICGA's assuming quasi-legal powers to offer a public lynching a cloak of respectability, one does have to conclude that your jumping from Lord Buckley to Vietnam war crimes to the ICGA is, shall we say, disordered.
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-06 17:14
Probably you are too young to understand the European contempt for alleged wars for democracy and freedom by our American partners who themselves suppress freedom of speech in their own country. This is just schizophreny pure. At first the McCarthy scandal, race discrimination and now for the first time I read about such restrictions against artists and comedians in the case of Buckley. Actually Vas suffers under that same undemocratic hate climate. Now a better explanation for you? Of course Hyatt is the driving force behind the actual defamation. Alabama and lynching isnt exactly an outlandish combination to figure.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 17:29
I am 54 and unusually well-informed for an American.  All I can say to you is that history did not start in May 1945, and wars for democracy and freedom are not "alleged" but quite real.

I should also point out to you that McCarthy was publicly discredited in 1954 (never mind that the larger substance of his allegations, that the U.S. government was penetrated by hundreds of Soviet agents in the 1930s and 1940s, has been redundantly proven in the Soviet archives).  Further, race discrimination is something we struggled with for a very long time and finally resolved by the 1960s.  If you don't believe that consider who our president is.  I think freedom of speech is not a big problem in our country, actually, as there are no end to the outlets where people can speak their mind in opposition to the government, a privilege I have exercised on many occasions.  Just last year something like a million people from all over the country peacefully gathered in Washington who overwhelmingly opposed Obama.  Try to picture that in Russia or China.  So I think your anti-Americanism is about 50 years out of date.

The Rajlich case has simply nothing to do with global politics or American wars of aggression.  For you to draw that comparison is, again, disordered.
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-06 19:47
My word of honor, I dont even know how I could be infected by what you called Anti-Americanism. I like everything of the USA but perhaps this is the reason why I suffer so much if eternal principles are violated. Please understand me. As a German I was told how and why the Nazis did evil things. And then the US tried to poison the Vietcong with  gas (Agent Orange). Posoned their trees and still today the people are suffering because of the chemical fall-out, causing genetical damages.

What do you mean with being informed, Nelson. That is only part of the medal. The other is being educated so that you can differ between right or wrong. And the prejudging against Vas is a terrible mess. Look, the guy has a private life. That's why we have a legal system, so that nobody could be harrassed through the mud endlessly (the actual campaign lasts for 6 years) by others who hate to follow the Law. Theron, Hyatt, Wegner etc could all have made a civil case but they didnt and this is private lynch justice if they then continue their public campaign. The Tribunal of Levy is just another form of public defamation. That must stop.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 20:06
We agree in everything except for your characterization of Agent Orange as "poisoning the Viet Cong with gas".  That's actually not correct.  Agent Orange is a defoilant.  It is intended to kill plants for the express purpose of making it harder for the enemy to hide.  I also believe that it is generally agreed that using this substance was ill-conceived considering its long-term effects to the environment as well as the many American troops who suffered from exposure to it.  Guerilla wars are pretty messy affairs.  Problems emerge when the politics make them unwinnable.  Take Afghanistan: a ghastly mistake, in my view, because there are only two choices that guarantee a definite outcome.  Either don't go there at all, or pursue a war policy of such ferocity that it would amount to genocide.  As the latter doesn't play well in a democracy, it is obvious that we should cut our losses and go home, adopting a Festung Amerika approach to foreign policy.
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-06 21:01 Edited 2011-03-06 21:12
[quote]We agree in everything except for your characterization of Agent Orange as "poisoning the Viet Cong with gas".  That's actually not correct.  [/quote]

Please read instead about the Napalm

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm

http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/as/vietnam/vietnamkrieg-fotos-d/napalmopfer-verkohlt-aufgehoben.jpg

http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/as/vietnam/vietnamkrieg-fotos-d/napalmbomben-fluechtende.jpg

here the complete collection of photos

http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/as/vietnam/vietnamkrieg-fotos.html
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2011-03-06 23:03
Now you are changing the subject.  You forget I am a Vietnam-era Army veteran.  You think you're teaching me something?
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-07 00:12 Edited 2011-03-07 00:20
Please excuse me if that hurt you. The only reason for the data is my wish to clarify why the Antiwarcrimes TRIBUNAL of Lord Russell was a justified event because the US government was hiding the truth and the truth was war crimes. If you compare this with Vas and the alleged wrongdoing you might agree that this is not worth such a Tribunal but after these 6 years of campaign it would be better to stop further diffamations and going for a court trial that will then show if there is a case at all and if something could end in a legal verdict. If not, the whole character assassination is over IMO.

I wanted to express my own shock when I saw these photos because I didnt see them at the time. The genetical defect pics are newer dated but I havent seen them before. I didnt want to shock you but to make an argument for the difference of what we are talking about here. Making a tribunal against Vas is IMO very strange but ok it's part of the witch hunt.

Let's come to a peaceful end of our exchange. For you it would be much more content-related in debates with other experts. Because I am more an outside observer who is interested in the aspects of private justice.

What I am expecting is that now all other commercial authors are examined on the question how much they adopted material from other programmers. This would be very easy to do and if the result would be that all took from others the whole propaganda will stop.

If the Vas competitors would denyy access to their engines I wanted to see David Levy to stop the Tribunal and to sharpely condemn the hypocrits with a fee of each programmer of 5000 € otherwise they would be excluded from further participation in ICGA events.

BTW I have asked the examination of other engines long ago. You dont have to be a programmer to understand the prejudiced behavior of hypocrits. :cool:
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2011-03-07 00:25

> I wanted to see David Levy to stop the Tribunal


You need to get up to date with the facts. Tribunal was mentioned in the original article by David as an idea. What was actually set up was a panel(now 25 people) to produce a report after all sides have had their say to the ICGA.

The ICGA will then decide what to do with the report.
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2011-03-07 11:26 Edited 2011-03-07 11:46
The number of the people in this panel cant substantiate legal effect if those who report about an out-singled subject and his actions, might be identical or similar to their own, so this is exactly why I call this private lynch justice and until now it's all part of the year long campaign.

Harvey you could set a good role model if you started to explain the sudden strength increase of HIARCS and others will soon follow suit. Perhaps this way my legal argument is better understood. Because it's about commercial chess programming, not chess programming as such, so that all the programmers on this panel are wrong-placed if they have no business at all.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2011-03-07 21:10
I would be more worried about the loss in playing style of Hiarcs after the Paderborn 2007 version.
Parent - By Watchman (***) Date 2011-03-07 00:51

>You dont have to be a programmer to understand the prejudiced behavior of hypocrits


And you don't have to be a psychiatrist to see through someone's feeble attempt to mitigate their own personal feelings of guilt by a pathetic attempt to guilt the people who hammered in their atrocities decades ago.

How about do us all a favor Rolf, drop all the military / government stuff and stick to chess. OK?
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2011-03-05 09:07

> i have 2 child, when something is broken in the house i normally aks they if they did it,  and they normally dont respond when they are guilty.


:grin::grin::grin::grin:
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2011-03-05 18:33 Edited 2011-03-05 18:50

>> i have 2 child, when something is broken in the house i normally aks they if they did it,  and they normally dont respond when they are guilty.
> :grin::grin::grin::grin:


IG you can paste all the :grin:'s you want down and across the post -but, this is clearly not my experience. In my house hold if something went down us kids were quiet for one of two reason - A) we didn't know who did it-and stood there looking at each other. B) we were waiting for one or the other of us to start pointing fingers. Then the fights would start.

Just humor! :grin: nothing more! :smile:
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) Date 2011-03-05 21:33

> In my house hold if something went down us kids were quiet for one of two reason - A) we didn't know who did it-and stood there looking at each other. B) we were waiting for one or the other of us to start pointing fingers. Then the fights would start.


In my household it was both yours and Positron's experience :lol:
Parent - By POSITRON (**) Date 2011-03-06 02:30
:lol::lol:
Parent - By JDrysdale (***) Date 2011-03-04 20:28
Vas is too busy with more important things.  Stuff like taking care of family, writing code, you know, important stuff.  This shit probably just rolls off his back.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / My reaction: Hiarcs forum and to Chess Vibes' open letter
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