Not logged inRybka Chess Community Forum
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / "%t Val" and other non-readable stuff in PGN
- - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-03 19:13
After the game is analized, this is what I get with "Copy to PGN":

1. e4 g6 {[%t Val] :} 2. d4 Bg7 3. Be3 d6 4. Nc3 {N}  (4. Qd2 Nf6 5.
Nc3 O-O 6. O-O-O c6 7. f3 Qa5 8. Kb1 Re8 {...1-0, Kasparov Garry 2838  -
Manolessos George, Patras 2001 Simultan} ) 4... a6 {[%t Val] @} (4... a5
{+0.29} ) 5. Qd2 {[%t Val] 9} (5. Nf3 Nf6 6. h3 O-O 7. Bd3 Nc6 {+0.52} ) 5...
b5 6. O-O-O Bb7 7. f3 Nd7 8. Nce2 {[%t Val] /} (8. Kb1 Ngf6 9. g4 Nb6 10. a3
c6 11. h4 h5 {+0.29} ) 8... c5 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Bxc5 $6  (10. Nc3 $5  10...
Nf6 11. a3 Rc8 12. Nge2 O-O 13. Kb1 Qc7 14. Nf4 Rfd8 15. h4 Na4 {-0.07} )
etc...

What's "%t Val" and other non readable stuff?
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2011-03-03 19:34
I think [%t Val] is for displaying later evals, e.g. the +0.29 you see after 1...g6 in Aquarium comes from a later comment (4...a5). $6 is a NAG for ?! and $5 is !?
Parent - - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-03 19:48
Yes, but then - this is no PNG???
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-03 19:57
Actually it is. PGN is extendable
There is no spesification for storing evaluations (just take a look at the specification of PGN , for example here

Since there is no defined way, every program creates its own way to store and retrieve such information.

Thus Non Standard pgn values, cannot be shared among various pgn readers.

This is ofcourse expected, unless the pgn standard changes, to cover those areas too.
Parent - - By ventura07 (***) [ca] Date 2011-03-03 20:12
An attempt was made in 2001 for an extended version og PGN covering these issues (Victor was part of the group which included ChessBase). The details can be found at:

http://pgn.freeservers.com/final.txt

I recall that the ChessBase program Nimzo 8 used these characters.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-03 20:22
Interesting read. The strange thing to me is why the evaluations are stored in such a way. The "simple" examplanation would be, to use char variables to store evaluations (since evaluation in CA and aquarium are not continues but stored as %) to save memory?

Really do not know, but even this proposal does not say how an evaluation will be stored. It could be [%eval XX ] or [% ev XX ] or [% XX] or something else. Or i am missing something. They only agreed on %emt %egt %mct %clk (unfortunatelly....:sad:)
Parent - - By ernest (****) [fr] Date 2011-03-04 15:38

> Interesting read.


I get:   :sad:
Forbidden
You do not have permission to access this page or file
Data files must be stored on the same site they are linked from.
Thank you for using FreeServers
Parent - - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-03-05 18:04
use homepage http://pgn.freeservers.com/ then
click
Parent - By ernest (****) [fr] Date 2011-03-05 18:41
Thanks!   indeed that works!
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2011-03-03 20:14
True. It's PGN.
Parent - - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-03 20:58
Maybe it is standards compliant, but for me just - useless. I'd like to see numbers not machine codes.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-03 21:02
Inside Aquarium, you see numbers.
Parent - - By Marek Soszynski (***) [gb] Date 2011-03-03 22:32
"Inside Aquarium, you see numbers."

But how can you copy them? Besides "Copy game as PGN" in the Notation pane, there is needed "Copy game as text". This deficiency has been raised before, e.g. http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=257673;hl=
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-03 23:03 Edited 2011-03-03 23:05
i do not say i like , or dislike the system. If you want to use the pgn to another reader, you will not read them, as you will not see them in Aquarium from different implementations.

By the way, if one is interested, he could write (not hard i think) his one exporter, with custom pgn specs, using AquariumScripter.
Just browse a game, and export, move by move... comments.. evals... in the format you think is best.
For example you may want to export evals as comments, which is a bad idea, since you will not be able to convert them back to real evaluations inside a game, and will always be comments.

p.s  by the way here there is a discussion about a perl script, changing the format of the pgn. Check it out.
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2011-03-03 23:54
Still doesn't explain why between Chess Assistant and Aquarium you still can't import and export to the other the evals but instead get the NAGS.
Parent - - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-04 08:47
Definitely, all the comments are useless. Should I learn programming language to be able to really copy pgn analysis and send it over email to my friend? Or paste it to chess forum?

I would like someone from Aquarium development team to tell me loud and clear:

will you or will you not add this basic feature called "Copy to PGN"?
Parent - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-04 13:42
Please paste here what you think is a valid PGN (from any software you like) , just to see what you mean by "good pgn"
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-04 15:04
A question. Do you know that you can configure the pgn output, excluding all markup?
You have 3 options. Full markup, which is the default, caries all the information stored in notation. Moves , comments, arrows, evaluations. Everything. It contains slot of markup, and is useful only if you paste it to aquarium.

The other options, do not contain markups, and are plain simple pgn's
Parent - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-04 17:25
No, I didn' know about that. That's why I posted this questions here.

Will try, thanks.
Parent - - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-04 17:40
Ok, here is what I get with "Copy moves & text comments only":

6. h3 O-O 7. Bd3 Nc6 {+0.52} ) 5... b5 6. O-O-O Bb7 7. f3 Nd7 8. Nce2 (8. Kb1
Ngf6 9. g4 Nb6 10. a3 c6 11. h4 h5 {+0.29} ) 8... c5 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Bxc5 $6
(10. Nc3 $5  10... Nf6 11. a3 Rc8 12. Nge2 O-O 13. Kb1 Qc7 14. Nf4 Rfd8 15. h4
Na4 {-0.07} ) 10... dxc5 11. Qxd8+ Rxd8 12. Rxd8+ Kxd8 13. Nh3 Bh6+ 14. Kb1
Nf6 15. Nc3 (15. c4 e6 16. cxb5 axb5 17. Nc3 {-0.68} ) 15... Kc7 16. Be2 Rd8
17. Rd1 Rxd1+ 18. Nxd1 c4 19. b3 cxb3 20. axb3 Kd6 21. Nb2 Be3 22. c3 $2  (22.
Nd1 $1  22... Bh6 23. Nhf2 {-0.85} ) 22... Nxe4 23. Nd1 Bh6 24. fxe4 Bxe4+

This is much better now, I have my evaluation scores very nicely inserted as comments.
But: what's $2, $6, $5?
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2011-03-04 17:44
NAGs. They're perfectly standard.

> $2, $6, $5?


?, ?!, !?
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2011-03-04 18:15

> ?, ?!, !?


So why won't Aquarium print them like this, instead of as NAGS?
Parent - - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-04 19:45
NAGs? Are we supposed to know what they mean?
Why not just print !? !! etc...?
Parent - By nebulus (****) [no] Date 2011-03-07 00:30

> NAGs? Are we supposed to know what they mean?


Numeric Annotation Glyphs (NAGs)

> Why not just print !? !! etc...?


Consistency. If you are going to use NAGs for "White has a vulnerable first rank" or "White has slight counterplay" then you might as well use NAGs for "Good move" and "Questionable move".
Parent - By ventura07 (***) [ca] Date 2011-03-04 13:34
Thanks for pointing out these scripts.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2011-03-04 15:12

> I'd like to see numbers


If you like the following better, there is an option you can set in Aquarium.
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Be3 d6 4. Nc3 {N}  (4. Qd2 Nf6 5. Nc3 O-O 6. O-O-O c6 7.
f3 Qa5 8. Kb1 Re8 {...1-0, Kasparov Garry 2838  - Manolessos George, Patras
2001 Simultan} ) 4... a6 (4... a5 {+0.29} ) 5. Qd2 (5. Nf3 Nf6 6. h3 O-O 7.
Bd3 Nc6 {+0.52} ) 5... b5 6. O-O-O Bb7 7. f3 Nd7 8. Nce2 (8. Kb1 Ngf6 9. g4
Nb6 10. a3 c6 11. h4 h5 {+0.29} ) 8... c5 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Bxc5 $6  (10. Nc3
$5  10... Nf6 11. a3 Rc8 12. Nge2 O-O 13. Kb1 Qc7 14. Nf4 Rfd8 15. h4 Na4
{-0.07} ) *
Parent - By dand (*) Date 2011-03-04 17:24
This looks much better!
Parent - - By Marek Soszynski (***) [gb] Date 2011-03-05 07:30
10. Bxc5 $6  (10. Nc3
$5  10... Nf6


That still leaves $6, $5...

Regard this as a feature request. I'd like to be able to copy the contents of the Notation pane exactly as it appears. After all, when annotating a game, I go to some trouble to make the contents of the pane look exactly how I want - yet I can't copy it directly. You should retain the Copy as PGN, but add Copy as Text or Copy as RTF.

I repeat what I said months ago:

I don't want to create an RTF document, and then copy from that, which is relatively time-consuming; I want to right-click in Aquarium's notation pane in order to get something usable (humanly viewable) to paste into a document/program of my own choosing. The least that Aquarium should do in this regard is to have the possibility of copying "?" as a question mark and not "$2", and likewise for the other marks. It's frustrating to see the contents of the notation pane showing you what you want, but being unable to copy and paste it directly. So how about adding "Copy game as RTF"?
Parent - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-03-05 08:50
a customisable "copy as..." would be very nice i agree.

It would be a nice "script exercise" by the way
- By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2011-03-09 17:34
Thanks for the discussion. Next Aquarium will have advanced options allowing to improve readability of PGN.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / "%t Val" and other non-readable stuff in PGN

Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill