This order does not mean that one is stronger than any other.
There are others, but these 3 are the best ones. Saddly enought the version of Fritz is a little frustrating, its UI is simple not good. It is not that bad, but...honestly I don't think you will like it. And then, there are lot of chess programs but none of them like those first 3.
But well, this is a good time to mention something....
An issue of all the available chess program for iphone: none of them let one to solve personal compiled puzzles in pgn files.
None of them have the following 3 features together:
1) Transferring files from/to Iphone through iTunes (bottom section in the application tab of iTunes) (Both Hiarcs and Stockfish for Iphone does support this)
2) When opening a game from a pgn file (both, from the chess initial position or a part of a game already initialized), displaying the first position of it. Instead, all the existing programs display the last position. This forces you to go back through the moves seeing the solution of the puzzle.
3) Providing an option to hide the notation with the moves of the current game. In order to avoid seen the solution of the puzzle.
It is incredible that almost all chess programs for (the now old) Windows Mobile do have this features together. Shredder for Windows Mobile have all of them, and Fritz too.
Just to add something, Shredder for Iphone does not have clocks!!! Come on guys, no clocks on a chess program? I couldn't believe it until I had an answer from Stefan saying that he will include it in the next version. What does it happen? Are Iphone users "special"?
And the story don't end there, those few reasonable chess programs that have clocks, don't have the option to set any custom time (like playing at 7 minutes or 9 or 11, etc). You have to selected either 5 minutes, 15, 30, and so on. With the option to increase some seconds per move.
Yes, you guessed it. After being the user of an Omnia and an Omnia 2 (both of them with windows mobile), I have just bought an Iphone 4. I'm really happy with my new Iphone. But I cannot believe that none of the available chess programs let me work on my chess tactical training on it. That sucks!
Sorry...I think I misunderstood your question... What was your question again? :-)
On infinite analysis I'm not sure which is stronger. hiarcs is tactically more aware, Shredder is better positionally.
Shredder's lack of timed levels is frustrating (we could have a definitive answer to this question if it had timed levels) although hiarcs only has timed levels going up to G30 which is also annoying.
Both are good programs, both have a long way to go.
the first one who does will be an instant hit imo.
perhaps a technical issue?
For a while now PC sales have been declining and I saw a study recently that 1/3 of all mobile phone users have a smartphone. That number is only going to grow exponentially. It amazes me that Vas has not joined the show. This seems to be the new tech wave. I recently got an IPhone 4 and it amazes me how many devices it actually can replace, like a camera, camcorder, GPS, IPod, PDA, laptop, etc. Also, with the huge success of Apple's IOS and Android's for smartphones, I'm not too sure how successful Windows mobile will be. I guess we will find out early next year.
> For a while now PC sales have been declining and I saw a study recently that 1/3 of all mobile phone users have a smartphone. That number is only going to grow exponentially. It amazes me that Vas has not joined the show. This seems to be the new tech wave. I recently got an IPhone 4 and it amazes me how many devices it actually can replace, like a camera, camcorder, GPS, IPod, PDA, laptop, etc. Also, with the huge success of Apple's IOS and Android's for smartphones, I'm not too sure how successful Windows mobile will be. I guess we will find out early next year.
I agree! I just got an Android and love it (although I also got it for free from Verizon...I guess they are getting ready for the presumed iphone on verizon)
What is funny is that I love my android but it only replaces my really good camera in instant situations. When I want to take pictures to take pictures I still use my good camera. Same with chess. I have shredder and droidfish (stockfish) for the android and they are both great. (Shredder is better because it has puzzles and limit strength).
But when I am at home and want to study or really play I still hit the PC laptop or a real board.
So at least for now the smartphone doesn't replace certain things (it HAS replaced a paper calendar!) but it does make me able to do certain things easier and more often without having to lug my camera and/or laptop everywhere.
But I do love my Droid phone---A LOT!
And I am eagerly awaiting Hiarcs for android!!
> What Droid phone did you get? All the latest smartphones are amazing. I really like my IPhone 4 but already told my wife that when I upgrade in 1 1/2 year I am going to want a 4 in screen.
I got the Droid Incredible. I love it!! The camera is pretty happening, even for a camera snob like me. :)
The screen is pretty big (not 4 inches though) and it is really easy to sync with google calendar and google documents so I can be productive, check my calendar AND play chess against Shredder or Stockfish (droidfish).
As I was a bit of smart phone skeptic I am AMAZED at how quickly I have adapted to it and truly love it. I might not even take my laptop with me on my next trip!! :)
For some reason I always prefer the Iphone.
Sounds like you've been spending too much time with your wife picking out handbags!
I put it just here perhaps anyone knows something
I have a samsung smart phone without keyboard, if I want to write I have a virtual keyb on the display but only for the action and then I must put it off because I want to see the display again; the system is the rare bada with a lot of samsung widgets but how could I visit playchess with my own account? is there a prog like the portable hiarcs who does it? I dont want to play long games against humans or the prog itself, because I dont visit a cafe for long hours and for blitz games the handling is impossible IMO, what I want is just looking for these transmissions e.g. the Amber right now.
the chessdom that transmitted on Suzy Polgars site is very good because of the evaluation with stockfish I guess. It's a bad situation without enough informations. Any hints?
I would pay for some tools for sure but why is there such a silence, it's like wanting to enter a drug scene what it really isnt all about. The market with users is there, why nobody offers something to play with or just to enter online places? think of all the senior players who have time enough, drinking something, chatting. I dream of a civil priced cluster mega machine where I lend a postbox and can store some games, order some analyses, store that and later at home in the evening I download or look at it on a bigger notebook display. There a world waiting for ideas in our hobby. talking about people who once played chess OTB themselves and now wished to get some news, follow some matches and get a new judgement in a favorite line.. Sorry, just wanted to give some feedback to whom it may concern.
Perhaps there is someone who listens and who has the idea for an extra income. Thanks for reading.
The online apps are for playing at ICC or FICS or Chess.com that I have seen.
Stockfish is limited to only 2500 elo
> Glaurung claims to have an elo of 2450, but I'm not sure if that is a generic number for all recent smartphones or if it is specific to the IPhone 4g.
It doesn't really "claim" to have any specific Elo, or at least that was never my intention. Such a claim would be meaningless. An Elo number like 2450 has no meaning without a point of reference. Elo ratings are relative, not absolute. It is the difference between two rating numbers, not a rating number in isolation, which has a meaning. Glaurung at a strength setting of 2450 claims to be 250 Elo points stronger than itself at a strength setting of 2200, and nothing more (but this claim could be wrong or inaccurate, mind you). If you are talking about the strength in term of FIDE ratings, nobody knows even the approximate strength of any recent chess program. This is just as true for PC chess engines as for iPhone apps. Chess programs don't play in human tournaments, therefore we have no idea how strong or weak they really are.
I made a quick and dirty experiment recently to get a very rough estimate of Glaurung's (really Stockfish 1.8, which is the included engine in the latest public version) strength on the iPhone 4. I played two test matches on my 2.8 GHz i7 iMac, against Kiwi 0.6d (2526 on the CCRL list) and Glaurung 1.2.1 (2771 on the CCRL list). In both matches, SF 1.8 had 20 seconds per game, while the opponent had 5 minutes per game. This simulates the 15x speed difference between the ARM CPU in the iPhone 4 and a single core of the i7. The results were:
Stockfish - Kiwi 0.6d: 88-12 (+83,-7,=10)
Stockfish - Glaurung 1.2.1: 39-61 (+25,-47,=28)
These results don't really add up. If you calculate the performance ratings, you'll see that SF is 346 Elo points ahead of Kiwi 0.6d and 78 points behind Glaurung 1.2.1, which shouldn't be possible, because the gap between Kiwi 0.6d and Glaurung 1.2.1 isn't anywhere near that big. I've chosen to just disregard the result against Kiwi. If we look only at the result against Glaurung 1.2.1, and keep in mind that a single core of the i7 is considerably faster than the CCRL's 2.4 GHZ Athlon X2, we arrive at an estimate of around or slightly above 2700 on the CCRL scale for SF 1.8 on the iPhone 4. Of course, with only 100 games played, this estimate isn't very reliable, but at least it's not hundreds of Elo points off. And as explained above, this has nothing to do with human ratings. It would probably be better if the CCRL, CEGT and other organizations lowered the level of the ratings by 2000 points or so, to prevent people from confusing the ratings with human ratings. Perhaps I should do the same with the "Strength" setting in SF, for instance by subtracting 800 from all numbers to make the scale start from 0.
> Stockfish is limited to only 2500 elo
I don't think the 2500 in the options means "limited to 2500." I think it means "full strength." Tord's estimate of the strength of his program on the iPhone is generally lower than what others believe, hence the 2500 in the options.
I am impressed with Shredder on the android. No pgn handling but I don't need that on a smartphone.
I haven't tried Chess Genius on android.
Seems to have a good pgn database handling system.
It depends on what you want out of the iphone chess app, many will play at GM strength and give analysis, set up positions, load games.I have bought or downloaded free versions of 3 brands.Chess Genius was my 1st, then Glaurung (free) and Shredder and the update to Glaurung (StockFish).My favourite is Stockfish.I must say though that I now play online at FICS more so don't really play games against the device.Iphone online chess apps are also dissapointing with none that can post seeks, see seeks, save games, analyze the games played.Also move entry on the iphone is a tad awkward with the screen just a bit too small for fast move imput as I have found many times that the wrong square is selected (I have big fingers) leading to horrible blunders.
You can't imagine one thing...It simply does not open a game which begins from other position than the default chess (initial) position. If you try, it just does nothing or it gets frozen.
what I'm looking for is a program that let me open some personal pgn files which include different tactic themes puzzles like pin, x-ray, double-attack, etc. I used to train myself (with my Omnia 2) in tactics using Pocket Fritz and Pocket Shredder. I want to do the same with my Iphone, but it is still simply not possible.
The workaround that I found is really awful:
I have to create a pgn file, with the following sequence of games:
first a game which only has the position with the puzzle and no moves,
and then a game which has the same position plus the solution/move sequence
I need to do this because the programs always open the games in the last position (no way to configure this), --> to see the position (the puzzle) you have to move back to the initial position seeing the solution
and the notation is always displayed (no way to hide it) --> you see the solution in the notation window
So, I work on the problem and when I think I solve it, I open the next game in the pgn file to check the solution.
It is unbelievable that I have to do this.
Any ideas, info is more than welcome!
> Tord commented earlier on a different thread that Stockfish is probably around 2700 ELO.
I am not sure what thread you are referring to, but I think you must have misunderstood whatever I wrote there. I would never make such a claim, for the simple reason that "2700 Elo" is completely meaningless without reference to some specific rating list. The general level of a rating list is completely arbitrary. You can add or subtract 1000 or 1000000 to all ratings on the list, and the ratings will be just as correct as before. Only the difference between two ratings on the same list has a well-defined meaning. A rating number in isolation tells us nothing. 2700 could be the strength of a beginner, or far stronger than the world champion.
I think I'll adjust the ratings in Stockfish's "Strength" setting down to a range of 0-2000 in the next version, in the hope that fewer people will then confuse the ratings with FIDE ratings.
> He has also stated several times that Hiarcs is stronger than Stockfish.
Well, it depends on the hardware. On the iPhone 3G and earlier, they aren't even remotely in the same league. Hiarcs is much stronger. On the other extreme end, Stockfish is stronger on fast desktop computers, as you can see on the CEGT or CCRL lists. The iPad and iPhone 4 are somewhere in between speedwise, and it's too early to say how the two programs compare there. I personally feel that Hiarcs should still be a bit stronger, but I don't have enough data to back this up. At any rate, both programs should be strong enough for almost anyone.
> For a while now PC sales have been declining and I saw a study recently that 1/3 of all mobile phone users have a smartphone. That number is only going to grow exponentially. It amazes me that Vas has not joined the show.
You are absolutely right. It boggles my mind that commercial programmers still try to sell UCI engines, and completely ignore the platforms where all the money is. Hardly anyone plays chess on a PC anymore, and even those who do usually have no clue what to do with a UCI engine. Meanwhile, mobile chess programs are ridiculously popular. Stockfish for iOS consistently sees about 1000 new downloads (I don't count updates) per week.
Regarding new features: I'll keep adding them, but slowly and conservatively. Trying to pack too many features into an iPhone app would lead to a user interface disaster, and in most cases I'll focus on features which are of interest to a significant fraction of the users (most people who read this board are -- unfortunately -- very different from the typical user). The iPad version has a lot more room to grow in terms of features; some of the new features in future versions will almost certainly only be available on the iPad.
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!
> I think I'll adjust the ratings in Stockfish's "Strength" setting down to a range of 0-2000 in the next version, in the hope that fewer people will then confuse the ratings with FIDE ratings.
Why not make a best guesstimate at what the Stockfish FIDE rating would be and use that! When most people talk about the "elo" of a program, they're referring to a FIDE rating anyway.
> Why not make a best guesstimate at what the Stockfish FIDE rating would be and use that!
Because such a guesstimate would be utterly worthless -- the margin of error would be something like +/- 200 or 300 Elo points. Besides, my guesstimate would be no better than that of anyone else. Nobody has any data to back up their guesses. It's therefore better to give a number that obviously isn't an estimate of a FIDE rating, allowing every user to come up with his own guesstimate (which would be just as good as mine), and mentally add whatever number he prefers to Stockfish's ratings.
Claiming a super high rating without solid evidence to back it up tastes strongly of dishonest marketing. It's very common practice, but I personally don't want to do it. The current max of 2500 in Stockfish on the iPhone is perhaps already a bit too high, from this point of view. It is possible -- perhaps even likely -- that Stockfish is indeed at least this strong at fast time controls, but claims of high strength deserve extraordinarily strong evidence. In this case, we have hardly any evidence at all.
> When most people talk about the "elo" of a program, they're referring to a FIDE rating anyway.
Probably, and we should do our best to help people understand that we have no clear idea how strong current chess programs are in terms of FIDE rating. It would therefore be better if the public computer chess rating lists would adjust the level of the ratings in such a way that it is immediately clear that the ratings have nothing to do with FIDE ratings. By making the numbers superficially resemble human ratings, we only confuse people by giving the illusion of knowing approximately how strong the programs are. In an ideal world, we would be able to keep the computer rating lists calibrated by playing frequent matches and tournaments against strong human players. Because this obviously won't happen, it's better to make it immediately evident that the computer and human lists are completely unrelated.
> It's therefore better to give a number that obviously isn't an estimate of a FIDE rating, allowing every user to come up with his own guesstimate (which would be just as good as mine), and mentally add whatever number he prefers to Stockfish's ratings.
If you make it 0-2000, it'll still be non-obvious to many people. How about -2000-0?
>How about -2000-0?
Eerily, I had exactly the same idea.
a 2600+ GM told me this week at the London Classic he sometimes beats hiarcs on his iPhone. But he gives Hiarcs 5 minutes and he takes up to an hour.
> a 2600+ GM told me this week at the London Classic he sometimes beats hiarcs on his iPhone. But he gives Hiarcs 5 minutes and he takes up to an hour.
I think this says even more about the strength of Hiarcs on an iPhone than the results of short tournaments. Thanks for sharing this, Harvey.
In the present century he would have thrown his phone...and hopefully that phone would be protected by something like the Otterbox Defender.
Both Pocket Fritz and Pocket Shredder for Windows Mobile have really good (or at least decent) UI design, with a lot of features.
Shouldn't it be possible to have the same features in an program for Iphone?
- one full version with an "Advance options" option (that opens a big screen with a loooot of features to configure the program) which is what you call a user interface disaster. But, which has all the features needed by people who are in this forum. You can call this version whatever you want to e.g. "Stockfish for Iphone Advance".
- another version, which is identical to the later but which has the "Advance options" option hidden. You call this version "Stockfish for Iphone".
the only difference between them is: 1 menu item.
The link above is from Anandtech and provides some benchmarks for various smartphones. The IPhone 4 does very well considering that it is more than likely underclocked to 800 MHz while most of the others are at 1000 MHz. I believe battery life was the reason for underclocking and it is fantastic with the IPhone.
I hope that both Tord and Harvey input some more since they are experts in this field. Tord, I understand the Elo dilemma but basically everyone assumes (wrongly) that Fide Elo and computer Elo are equivalent and you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage by doing the right thing and lowering that number or creating a different scale. Harvey, Hiarcs impressively won that tournament with something like a 2900 Elo performance. How much faster is the IPhone's hardware in comparison with what was used in that tournament.
If its not the best engine, what about features of the program? -I ask this, since lack of features seems to be a running theme in the thread here.
As WM 6.5 is now obsolete I think that Chessbase has to try and give users on iphone the same type of experience as WM users have had.I think they are going to run into the same problems that other iphone developers are having, that is there is too many controls on what can and can't be done due to the iOS.
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