> Interest in available engines to run on available software is practical. Interest in non-available engines is academic. The former is the domain of the practical, the latter the domain of the dreamer.
Very true! In my professional life I am a musician and I do dream and strive for things that are somewhat out of my grasp. (and often even manage to land them!!)
As chess is a hobby I choose to dream about the MOST LIKELY unattainable goal of becoming master strength.
> You are only interested in things you can / will own? That's hard to understand.
> There are so many things that I will never own - for example a war bird, a Corvette or a rocket. Still I think they are really fascinating.
Well actually all I said was that my interest in a cluster is negligible.
And the examples of a rocket and a corvette or not even relevant. Cars and rocket science are not my hobby. Chess and getting better at it is my hobby. That is what I find fascinating. So although the odds of me ever playing at Grandmaster level are obviosuly LOW, I still find that fascinating and worthy of pursuing and studying. So it would be wise to make sure that your analogies hold water before you throw them out there.
As I have limited time I WOULD rather focus on engines and software that will work and perform well on the hardware I have or would likely get in the near future. This again helps me to focus on what I find fascinating.
Another part of that hobby is following certain chess competitions. And as I stated earlier, I believe the spirit of competition is better when the hardware is level.
And in my reply to Felix's post if all the engines were running on a cluster of whatever size, I would think that was great.
![[kw]](/mwf/v12/flags/kw.png "Kuwait")
Today's cluster will probably have less computing power than a laptop a few years up the road. The cluster gives you a peak of what you can expect from the future. To be honest, nobody is interested in a tournament with equal hardware ... we already have several very good groups that do exactly that and do it in a manner that would give much more reliable results than a quick tournament with few games played. In most sport you have a weight class or division that is unlimited, and that is usually the most interesting.
> To be honest, nobody is interested in a tournament with equal hardware ...
I am. That is all I have ever said.
![[gb]](/mwf/v12/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
More than a few years i think! :o)
![[ae]](/mwf/v12/flags/ae.png "United Arab Emirates")
> Today's cluster will probably have less computing power than a laptop a few years up the road.
hope so...btw I dream of having the Rybka cluster so I can have run on 2,048 cores
![[nl]](/mwf/v12/flags/nl.png "Netherlands")
A Corvette must be within reach for you.
You can always sell the cluster :)
You can always sell the cluster :)
![[de]](/mwf/v12/flags/de.png "Germany")
No need to sell the cluster. But in the 1990s, when I told my wife I'd like to get a Corvette, she said that's a pimp's car. So there's no chance to get one
she said that's a pimp's car
This is wrong! It is a proven fact that pimps prefer large sedans to carry their hos around in. Any large Mercedes is ideal for this task!
This is wrong! It is a proven fact that pimps prefer large sedans to carry their hos around in. Any large Mercedes is ideal for this task!
No matter if it's right or wrong - if my wife says, it's a pimp's car I can't buy it
![[mx]](/mwf/v12/flags/mx.png "Mexico")
A Corvette must be within reach for you.
You can always divorce :)
You can always divorce :)
That would cost much more than a Corvette
I wonder what she would think about a large pink Cadillac?
![[us]](/mwf/v12/flags/us.png "United States")
Who needs it? Fast car=lots of tickets. My sister got an MR2 and $300 speeding tickets every-other week. Darn things just beg to be driven fast.
I don't need it anymore. I found out SUVs are much cooler
But do you know the German Autobahn? Many of them have no speed limit.
But do you know the German Autobahn? Many of them have no speed limit.
hmm, perhaps time to trade in the wife?
it's time for us men to regain some lost territory in the man/wife - what you can/what you can't do battle.
check out the movie Old School - a classic!
http://www.amazon.com/Old-School-Widescreen-Unrated-Caplan/dp/B00005JM1F/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286354915&sr=8-1
Hey and perhaps it's time your wife realizes she's married to a pimp!
She might even enjoy it
it's time for us men to regain some lost territory in the man/wife - what you can/what you can't do battle.
check out the movie Old School - a classic!
http://www.amazon.com/Old-School-Widescreen-Unrated-Caplan/dp/B00005JM1F/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286354915&sr=8-1
Hey and perhaps it's time your wife realizes she's married to a pimp!
She might even enjoy it
Your wife is outrageous. How could a Corvette be a pimp's car? A pimp needs four seats for sure. It can't be an SUV as that lacks the style elements a pimp needs to attract a stable of ladies.
A pimp's car is a Chrysler 300 with a custom paint job, spinning hubcaps and a clever personalized license plate. Here are some examples:
http://www.300cforumz.com/PHOTOPOST/data/2/medium/PimpDaddyRyansloanerChrysler300.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/i/stinger18la.jpg/
http://www.pinklimocompany.co.uk/pink-limo-company-vehicles.asp Definitely take the interior tour on this one. This is truly a pimp car, 100%.
The Chrysler 300 has long been an admired vehicle in the personal services industry.
A pimp's car is a Chrysler 300 with a custom paint job, spinning hubcaps and a clever personalized license plate. Here are some examples:
http://www.300cforumz.com/PHOTOPOST/data/2/medium/PimpDaddyRyansloanerChrysler300.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/i/stinger18la.jpg/
http://www.pinklimocompany.co.uk/pink-limo-company-vehicles.asp Definitely take the interior tour on this one. This is truly a pimp car, 100%.
The Chrysler 300 has long been an admired vehicle in the personal services industry.
Well - I guess Germans are different. The cars your links point to would here in Germany better match to gays - but not to pimps. No pimp would ever drive a pink car
German pimps love Corvettes, Dodge Vipers and Mercedes. I really don't understand this - but it looks like they don't like bimmers.
German pimps love Corvettes, Dodge Vipers and Mercedes. I really don't understand this - but it looks like they don't like bimmers.
You know more about German pimps than I do. I've only seen one in Frankfurt and he looked like a creep. And what he was selling that night was decidedly uninteresting.
The idea behind a pimp car is external ostentation combined with elaborate customized comfort and features, similar to the clothes a successful pimp wears. Hence the term "pimp my ride", which is the title of a television program here in the U.S. that ran for a number of years, where a group of mechanics dream up and execute incredibly creative custom designs.
http://www.mtv.com/shows/pimp_my_ride/season_5/series.jhtml
I think the big difference between German pimps and Americans is that on our side of the Atlantic when you think "pimp" you automatically think a black guy with multiple gold fillings wearing flamboyant 1970s clothes, as in numerous black exploitation films of that period. The current reality might be very different, but that's the stereotype. And of course, such a stereotype would drive a pink car. Famous owners of pink cars: Cab Calloway, Sugar Ray Robinson, Elvis Presley. I suppose it takes a big, undeniably male personality to deflect the gay connotations.
The idea behind a pimp car is external ostentation combined with elaborate customized comfort and features, similar to the clothes a successful pimp wears. Hence the term "pimp my ride", which is the title of a television program here in the U.S. that ran for a number of years, where a group of mechanics dream up and execute incredibly creative custom designs.
http://www.mtv.com/shows/pimp_my_ride/season_5/series.jhtml
I think the big difference between German pimps and Americans is that on our side of the Atlantic when you think "pimp" you automatically think a black guy with multiple gold fillings wearing flamboyant 1970s clothes, as in numerous black exploitation films of that period. The current reality might be very different, but that's the stereotype. And of course, such a stereotype would drive a pink car. Famous owners of pink cars: Cab Calloway, Sugar Ray Robinson, Elvis Presley. I suppose it takes a big, undeniably male personality to deflect the gay connotations.
Nelson sho knows hos!
It does seem like a lucrative business, especially at the high end...
Yes, there is lots of potential if you have clients like Eliot Spitzer and Tiger Woods, and you run the service out of a place where it is legal.
No, celebrities are too closely followed by reporters and paparazzi and when they blow up, they blow up everyone connected to them. I was thinking of very affluent but low-profile clients. Rich Middle Eastern and Asian businessmen, for example, with native-language speaking marketers paid on commission. The whole thing has to be run in a classic compartmentalized way with several buffers between the transaction and the mastermind, great communications discipline and ideally a domicile outside of U.S. jurisdiction, holding a foreign passport. If I wasn't so conventional I might have been a vice kingpin and you could have been my operations officer!
The problem is that this type of operation would only make sense where prostitution is generally illegal. Prostitution is much too widespread in Asia, Europe, and even in some parts of the middle east (think Dubai) for this to be a viable business.
You misunderstood me. Of course it would be a U.S. business. I am only saying that top management would be safely tucked away, leaving lower levels to assume the public face of the business. Hiring, marketing, coordination, etc.
OK, now I understand. You want to use the George Soros model, where you run your business out of a place like the Cayman Islands, so that if something goes awry, there's nothing that anyone can do about it!
on a more mundane level,an aquatint( misspelled i know) of mine owns a massage parlour about 50 miles from me,lets say he tests the goods first.
> A Corvette must be within reach for you.
just got an sms AED 39,376,609.83 is the available balance in your current a/c 101-xxxxxx-01
???? You have over 10 million USD in the bank?
peanuts
actually such a rule wouldn't change much, e.g. sjeng used a cluster comparable to Rybka's and so on. The teams with cluster support already get good hardware and there's no big unfair hardware difference.
> actually such a rule wouldn't change much, e.g. sjeng used a cluster comparable to Rybka's and so on. The teams with cluster support already get good hardware and there's no big unfair hardware difference.
That is fine and once again I would like to reiterate that I am not saying anything is unfair. All the participants entered knowing the rules. And the rules for that section were whatever hardware a team wanted was fine.
I just like the competitive idea of equal hardware. For me, it is more interesting to follow as a competition.
well, it's a fair competition, no big hardware disadvantages, that's what I'm saying.
> well, it's a fair competition, no big hardware disadvantages, that's what I'm saying.
To a certain degree I think you and are discussing apples and oranges.
If tournaments are going to have open hardware sections that is fine and that is the way it is. I would never call it unfair because any programmer has the right to participate or to not participate by the rules as stated.
And they all have equal chances to try and up their hardware.
I just find the idea of equal hardware more aesthetically pleasing from a competitive point of view.
well, and I say that the hardware is already rather "equal".
> well, and I say that the hardware is already rather "equal".
As I said we are talking about apples and oranges and different aesthetics.
i understand your points well.the average guy buying a chess program will say for example.i have a dual-core laptop or so and ask what is strongest program for my computer.
>
> i understand your points well.the average guy buying a chess program will say for example.i have a dual-core laptop or so and ask what is strongest program for my computer.
However 9 games or so will not answer this question, you need to play many more games to answer this question such as cegt and ccrl do. Just because shredder won the software section does not make it the strongest chess program out there.
mike
i am well aware of that,however the layman will only see Shredders latest add quoted above.
Lukas, with 200 cores, what is your average search depth?
For 1 min game, 5 min game and classic time controls?
For 1 min game, 5 min game and classic time controls?
whatever laptop hacked into Paul's computer:Pdont we all want it:)
I think its fair to have 2 tourneys one unlimited and one uniform.What is wrong with that?Organisers dont force you to play both? As Lukas mentioned Jonny was the biggest cluster and biggest cluster does not mean its the strongest as the tourney proves that.Also if rondo's cluster was tested enough and we had a bit more time to get it more stable to our liking then of course Rondo would have played on an ever bigger cluster than even Jonny perhaps.
Well, then we can hope that Rondo's cluster variant will be ready for next year and that you will have access to some amazing new hardware for it to run on.
time will tell:P
come on Felix you give more value to the fun blitz tour than uniform hardware tourney aka the software world championship. Just because rybka did not play it doesnt mean its crap.So if in the future rybka does play the uniform tourney what would your comments be?Rybka wins on all 3 tourneys including the uniform platform and bla bla bla....
Or if they won the uniform and came 2nd in the Cluster event, what then? As a Turkish nut we both know is fond of saying, 'No risk no fun.'
The blitz tournament is of no value, it's some kind of fun thing. I didn't mention is separately on the website for example.
Actually the main tournament is also not of "that" big value, as I said, rating lists mean much more to me.
I'm just no fan of creating too many world championships and making regulations that artificially change the competition.
Actually the main tournament is also not of "that" big value, as I said, rating lists mean much more to me.
I'm just no fan of creating too many world championships and making regulations that artificially change the competition.
![[in]](/mwf/v12/flags/in.png "India")
I think tomgdrums is right. In fact the ting is pretty simple. If the competition is between programs to find the better one.., equal hardware is must and if the competition is between the best program + hardware (open )available then no issue . But i think if program is weak even 800 cores cant save them and 4 cores can even beat 32 cores.
one game is a gamble but so many things play a part-luck,book line,engine crash,gui client....and of course the usual positives engine strength and hardware strength.
People might think running on 800 cores is a big advantage.I think one thing most people forget is Jonny was stable at 800 cores and that itself deserves a big round of applause.It is not easy to tune a cluster and it takes ages to really use a cluster as effectively as possible.
I am sure Lukas will agree but running the typical 1/0 test for cluster is pretty useless.
People might think running on 800 cores is a big advantage.I think one thing most people forget is Jonny was stable at 800 cores and that itself deserves a big round of applause.It is not easy to tune a cluster and it takes ages to really use a cluster as effectively as possible.
I am sure Lukas will agree but running the typical 1/0 test for cluster is pretty useless.
It's hard to get much reliable information from short tournaments, but so far, nobody has released a cluster based engine. As long as this holds true, these short tournaments will be the only basis for evaluating the relative strengths of these cluster based engines (Gridchess, rybka, Deep Sjeng, Zappa, Rondo, Jonny, Crafty). Drawing conclusions from this noisy data set isn't ideal, but it's better than anything else I can think of...
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