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Poll Perfect "God" Play ELO... (Closed)
< 3800. 5 8%
<= 3800. 0 0%
approx 3800. 5 8%
>= 3800. 4 7%
> 3800. 35 57%
No Idea!! 12 20%
- - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-18 16:14
Let's vote! :eek::fat::cry:...:razz::red::roll:...:sad::slim::smile:...:surprised::cry::twisted:...:wink::evil::yell:...:confused::cool::lol:
Parent - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-18 16:20
Obviously we/mankind should be able to achieve Perfect Play ELO in next 50yrs right?!!
Parent - - By dcorbit (***) Date 2010-09-20 19:59
The very idea of voting on mathematics makes me ill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
Parent - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-20 22:35
:eek: Extremely funny!! :lol:  I suppose you are CORRECT. [:mad:]  Typo-Correction:  Let's Guestimate!! :lol::grin::razz::cool:
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 04:40

> The very idea of voting on mathematics makes me ill


Take heart, Dan- Indiana in the 1890's was still in the shadow of the indian wars.

The wars, which ranged from the 17th-century (King Philip's War, King William's War, and Queen Anne's War at the opening of the 18th century) to the Wounded Knee massacre and "closing" of the American frontier in 1890..."

Pi, for most of the citizen's of indiana probably was thought to be something one ate for desert.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 05:00
Commentary on Kings I 7:23 shows how to derive pi as 3.14151. Not too bad for thousands of years ago...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 05:39
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 06:55
I was thinking of what you see at the bottom of the page at this reference:

http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/pi.htm
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 09:31
I was going to say that the Egyptians had a better estimate way before that, but your posted page retrorefuted that...

And I believe the Mayans had a much closer approximation at a much earlier time (what with their invention of the 0 and having the most exact calendar, and whatnot), but that's just unprovable, well...

!זיון
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 12:56
btw., how many digits of pi do you know? I know 161, but only 111 of them quick, don't know the last 50 well and need to look for a short time on them before I can tell you all 161 digits :)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 12:59
Two part answer:

When I was your age, I knew more than 200 (which I learned to win a bet). Right now only 31 though. :surprised:
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 14:06
aha, ok, around 200 seems to be the limit of what you can learn without too much training :)

I just learned it to see how easy it is to memorize a long number - not too difficult ;)
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2010-09-22 15:04
I can quickly rattle off 1000 digits of pi in order.  Trouble is, though, I'm not sure where in pi my sequence starts.  :wink:
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 15:06
:lol:
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 15:10
Yes, it was not as difficult as I imagined it would be. I would remember it by chanting it in 3-digit groups which had to start at the beginning. (This is something they used to go through in elementary psychology classes, where most people could only recite the alphabet quickly going forward, but had to search when going backward, but some people could do either easily, indicating a different memory structure).
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 15:16
well, I tried to do it with patterns, like "265" (like 365 days, but with a 2) and so on. but it were sometimes 4 digits like "3993" or 5 in"34211"

There are some strange methods some people tried, like building long sentences, but they fail for me. but I'm sure there are better ways to remember it than what I learned.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (*****) Date 2010-09-22 20:19 Edited 2010-09-22 20:51
Daniel Tammet had the European world record for recalling Pi digits, his number synesthesia has him visualize pi as some kind of elaborate landscape. He did a small water color to give an idea of what this looks like for him:

Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 20:33
mmh. am I supposed to understand that system after looking at that picture? :)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 20:35
Wow, pi turns into a really ugly painting! :eek:
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 22:31
Pi à la mode du paysage!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 22:06
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

From the link:

"in ordinal linguistic personification, numbers, days of the week and months of the year evoke personalities."

Oh my grapefruit! I wasn't aware of that illness at all, but I must had have it as a child, I even made comics about the personalities of numbers and letters, and they were very strong, e.g. 2(f) was with 1(m), but would cheat him with 5(m), I actually felt some attraction to 7(f)'s personality (and it's still my favorite number, I even take time to write it detailed every time), 4(m) used glasses and was a nerd-type that always carried a huge book around, 9(f) would be very aggressive and cause usual fights with the other numbers, and so on.

The strange thing is that I used to perceive the numbers' personality depending on their pronunciation, since all of them were in Spanish, once I learned the number's pronunciation in English I made duplicated numbers with different personalities, often gender switched (Four would be female and would become the girlfriend of Cuatro, Seven was male and the brother of Siete).

The letters were too many to recall all their personalities now, but 8(f) and B(f) had similar personalities (both old maids :lol:).

I couldn't imagine them being any other way, when they married and had children it was also easy to imagine their children's personalities, no idea all that was due to my synesthesia.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 22:52
Gives painting by numbers a whole new meaning!

Do these folks have their own Gallery of numerical Synesthetic  art?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-09-22 23:29 Edited 2010-09-22 23:32
I'm more interested at other people with Synesthesia's take on numbers' personalities :smile:, strangely, numbers above 9 or even the number 0 never caused anything on me, so I guess numbers and letters don't cause anything in other people! :lol:
Parent - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2010-09-22 15:31
Not too difficult only because the long number is not long enough.

Try to remember the first 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 digits of pi.
This problem is so hard that even your computer cannot memorize them.

There are other problems for your computer to solve even without the need to memorize and I am not sure if calculating the last digit of the
200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 digits is a problem that the computer can practically solve
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2010-09-22 20:34 Edited 2010-09-22 20:41
What do you mean by 'perfect play'?
- best possible move at each position?
- win every game?

If the former then we have people/engines today that achieve this; their ELO is measured on results, not on finding the best move from a chess position.  If you mean the latter then it is ELO difference that matters not an ELO absolute, i.e., Player A with a 2500 ELO will beat a player with a very low ELO rating {say 150 ELO} as far as makes no difference, all the time, yet Player A with the same 2500 ELO rating will not beat a player with say 2400 ELO most of the time - so we have a different result for Player A yet the ELO rating is the same.
Parent - - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-22 20:49
"Perfect Play" = Highest Possible ELO Play without making losing moves. :grin:
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2010-09-23 05:05
We already have that.
Parent - - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-23 14:58
"Perfect Play" = Highest Possible ELO Play without making losing moves......as in......The Solution To Chess!!!  We do NOT have that...yet! :grin:

Check this out though--we DO have the Solution to Checkers!!!
http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~chinook/project/
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2010-09-23 17:05
I stand by my statement; we have today humans/engines that play the best move in some positions - not all positions - just some positions.  So I repeat, if you are only interested in finding the best move for all positions encountered during a game then ELO is not the measure to do that.  ELO is actually a rather crude way to measure results performance; you certainly cannot use ELO to identify move choice performance.

Perhaps a good way to think of this is imagine measuring the speed of a bullet exiting the barrel of a gun to determine the impact penetration of the bullet entering a target - there are so many other variables that come in to play, not least of which, in my example, is the direction the bullet is travelling in respect of the target, i.e., if you don't hit the target then measuring the speed of the bullet to determine target penetration is rather pointless!  :o)
Parent - - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-23 20:14 Edited 2010-09-23 20:22
Perfect "God" Play = wrt ALL Positions!

1600 players can play some positions perfectly!  (eg. many checkmate-in-ones).

>  ELO is actually a rather crude way to measure results performance; you certainly cannot use ELO to identify move choice performance.


Elo IS supposed to be the BEST way to "identify move choice performance" generally though.  I guess you are arguing with this about Elos on a move-by-move basis.

Note:  move choice performance leads to results performance, so no results performance ALSO means no move choice performance! [:evil:]
Parent - By Razor (****) Date 2010-09-26 14:50
If ELO were supposed to be a good way to measure move performance then why can a 2800 rated player make a move a 1200 rated played would have been embarrassed to make?  Answer: because ELO does not provide any guarantee whatsoever when it comes to making a move!  :o)
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) Date 2010-09-26 18:03
I have spoken with God about this issue, and he stated that his rating is infinity, unquantifiable.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-26 18:12
I believe God's rating is approximately 1600, but I can't prove it.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-09-26 22:51 Edited 2010-09-26 22:54

> I believe God's rating is approximately 1600


Huh, why not 1400? It would be really funny being able to beat God OTB :smile:
Parent - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-26 18:54
Although my poll here was for Chess, what does he say his ELO is for Tic-Tac-Toe?  Is that infinity too?  Actually, you should read some of the responses. :yell:  There has been note of material imbalance equivalence!  Perhaps ELO infinity would only need QueenSIDE's Odds against to win?  Actually, we are pretty sure the ELO scale does not go that high and is indeed finite. :sad::cry:
- - By Christoph Fieberg (*) Date 2010-09-18 17:31
About 10 years ago I calculated together with a mathematican that perfect play is about Elo 5.600.
The formula which I do not remember was based on the search depth increase and the correlating Elo increase.
Parent - By BankShots (***) Date 2010-09-18 17:49
Fritz6 ~ 2600?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-09-18 18:03
that is most probably wrong, it would mean this best play would win every game against the Rybka cluster. That sounds not realistic.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-18 19:50
it would mean this best play would win every game against the Rybka cluster.

Not much doubt about that. In fact, I'm sure that if Vas continues working on Rybka full time for five years, the 2015 cluster will win against the 2010 cluster just about every game (assuming an opening book that left off in unclear positions). Even the current cluster software on 100X faster hardware would wipe the floor with its present day counterpart.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-09-18 20:53
let Rybka play 100 games against Fritz 5.32 . There will be draws.
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 00:29
I highly doubt my best contempt R4 would give up a draw.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2010-09-19 00:38
Okay, then make it 1000 games or 10,000 games.  If you're focused on contempt in particular, then there will be some losses eventually if no draws.
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 01:24
Wow! this is going much faster than I thought...if it makes it to late middlegame, it always does something dumb there.  25-0 so far.
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 02:02
50-0 hmm...I am having a bit of deja vu...where   have   I   seen   this   before...scratching head...ah! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpBkc2jK-6w
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 02:47
75-0, I almost fell asleep.  The depressing thing is that I am predicting most of Fritz's moves but am having trouble even making sense of Rybka's moves after they are played.
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 02:55
It got a draw!  game 78.  But will there be draws...plural?
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 02:57
Performance +883 Elo...so maybe one is not unexpected.
Parent - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 03:10
Actual Elo difference is about 756 according to my tests of the new R4 variant and the CCRL rating of Fritz 5.32.
Parent - - By mindbreaker (****) Date 2010-09-19 03:49
Draw attached.
Attachment: Thedraw.cbv (6k)
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Perfect "God" Play ELO = 3800?
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