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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Wild One: Sicilian Wing Gambit, Nanu variation?
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- - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-16 08:16
In keeping with the ongoing theoretical debate over the Wing Gambit I thought it would be fun to play the wild Nanu variation.  Anyone interested in trying to prove that white's rook offer is unsound?

1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6 9. Bxe4

rnb1kbnr/pp3ppp/5q2/8/1pP1B3/P4N2/3P1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq -


This is a torture test for black (and chess engines in general) so ideally the second round will be the same position w/ reversed colors (so the pain is distributed equally :wink:)
Parent - - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-16 08:50
I am game. But not clear about the background to this debate. Can you enlighten me?
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-16 09:13

> I am game. But not clear about the background to this debate. Can you enlighten me?


To my knowledge, this variation is new to the correspondence forum.  There's been a series of interesting Wing Gambit games played here recently and it was these games that I had in mind when I made the debate comment.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-16 09:56
Interesting gambit line. Not sure as what to think of this line for a corr game
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-16 10:05

> Interesting gambit line. Not sure as what to think of this line for a corr game


Imho, white is at least equal.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that white has a won game.  Needless to say, it's insanely complicated so proving anything will be next to impossible.
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-16 10:07
I may consider. I need to take a look at it.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-16 10:07
Do you want to start as white or black?  I prefer to start with white but will happily start with black if you'd rather take a crack at it.  I have some ideas that I'm looking forward to testing.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-16 10:10
oops i just seen indrajit_sg. Well if he wants to play ill let him. If he decide to not play I will take his place
Parent - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-16 11:51
Thanks TheHug. I'll play with Black :smile:
Parent - - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-16 12:15
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6 9. Bxe4 10. Qxa1

Looks like Black has a high chance of winning!

rnb1kbnr/pp3ppp/8/8/1pP1B3/P4N2/3P1PPP/qNBQ1RK1 w kq - 0 1
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-16 17:08
It depends on what engines you are looking at and how good your hardware is :grin:. This has a lot more pitfalls than you think.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-16 18:44

> This has a lot more pitfalls than you think.


That's putting it mildly! :grin:
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-16 18:53
I had just happen to look at the other forum I follow (That is about openings). And seen some interesting AN. To be fair I'm not commenting but this will be interesting
- - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-16 18:38
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O
Qf6 9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3

rnb1kbnr/pp3ppp/8/8/1pP1B3/PQ3N2/3P1PPP/qNB2RK1 b kq -
Parent - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-17 02:42
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O
Qf6 9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6

rnb1kbnr/pp3ppp/5q2/8/1pP1B3/PQ3N2/3P1PPP/1NB2RK1 w kq - 0 11
- - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-17 03:42
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O
Qf6 9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1

rnb1kbnr/pp3ppp/5q2/8/1pP1B3/PQ3N2/3P1PPP/1NB1R1K1 b kq -
Parent - - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-19 03:58
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-19 18:39
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4

rnb1k1nr/pp2bppp/5q2/8/1PP1B3/1Q3N2/3P1PPP/1NB1R1K1 b kq - 0 12
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-07 17:56
Ne7 was better I think.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-10-08 06:34
I think the a1 rook is industrial strength poison, so toxic that it's better for black to skip the offer and get on with development.  It's a blast to study and analyze.  It's also especially good at illustrating the downside of overzealous pruning...

Fail Low City.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-08 08:09
what is this u have shown ?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-10-08 08:46 Edited 2010-10-08 09:17
It's some Aquarium or IDEA feature.

IA: The score that the engine showed at infinite analysis when it saw the position for the first time.
MM: The actual score after Minimax, which means all the scores kept falling horribly (either a signal that the engine doesn't know what's it's talking about, or that the position is probably won for white but too complex for engines to see it).

EDIT: Or not...
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-10-08 09:07 Edited 2010-10-08 09:14
It's from IDeA's MM-Delta chart (Infinite Analysis accuracy report) and it shows all of the nodes in the tree where the best IDeA score  differs from the IA score by at least 10%.  I put the data into grid format by right-clicking on the bar graph in chart view and selecting Add to Notes which sends all of the info you see in the screenshot to the Critical note list.

You know you're analyzing a very strange position when 39% of Idea tasks trigger a False Alarm check.  And that's after I doubled and then tripled the analysis duration!
- - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-21 04:11 Edited 2010-09-21 09:26
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-21 09:09

> 9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 13. Kf8


Since this is a friendly game, I just want to confirm that you recorded the correct move (i.e. I'm not sure if you skipped a move or mistyped the move number)
Parent - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-21 09:27
Sorry about that. I have corrected it. The move stays the same.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-22 03:18
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3

rnb2knr/pp2bppp/5q2/8/1PP1B3/1QN2N2/3P1PPP/2B1R1K1 b - - 0 13
Parent - - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-22 04:22
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-22 04:34
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-07 17:58
I have Huge Doubts on this Kf8 move. Qf4 or Qd6 or Qb6 would have been better.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-10-08 06:41

> I have Huge Doubts on this Kf8 move. Qf4 or Qd6 or Qb6 would have been better.


I have an idea that I'd like to test in the Qf4 line so if you're ever interested in playing this beast let me know and we can set up a game.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-10-08 06:47
Maybe he should post his move in his Muzio game challenge against me first :smile:
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-10-08 06:56
:lol:
Touché.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-08 07:48
I am very sorry Vytron. Forgot the game. :grin:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-10-08 08:44
And I thought you were working really hard to find a drawing line :razz:

Anyway, here it is:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=281740
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-08 10:24

>And I thought you were working really hard to find a drawing line


I am working hard to find draw line. That was just an excuse.:roll:
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-08 07:47
I am ready
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-10-08 19:44
Ok.  I'll create a new thread but first - do you want to start at move 12 or use the same starting position that was played in this game?
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-10-09 01:28
first let me play the 12th move.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-10-13 06:26
I saw that you started a game with indrajit, then omprakash and then you accepted dragon's challenge, are you open to further challenges? We could play a normal match or a thematic Nanu, if you wish.
Parent - - By Moz (****) Date 2010-10-13 06:38

> I saw that you started a game with indrajit, then omprakash and then you accepted dragon's challenge, are you open to further challenges?


Sure.  I'm playing a total of 4 Nanu games at the moment so I prefer to play a standard game or a different thematic if there's something in particular you'd like to play.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-10-13 09:50
I actually enjoy more games starting from scratch, as I still have a lot to learn about openings, thematics tend to not teach me anything as the variations can be totally different from what I use to play (e.g. what I learned about the Wing Gambit remains only useful for the Wing Gambit).

I've created our game:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=19148
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2010-10-08 10:34
I have 5...e6 as better in my IDeA, though 5...e5!? is good for a winning attempt, which seems to have worked--white seems to lose now after the sixth and seventh moves, which are both very far from the main lines I have.  I have 8...Qf6 as a (correct) novelty in my tree.
- - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-22 10:00
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5 Qd8

rnbq1knr/pp2bppp/8/2P5/1P2B3/1QN2N2/3P1PPP/2B1R1K1 w - - 1 3
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-23 09:17
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5 Qd8 15. Bd5

rnbq1knr/pp2bppp/8/2PB4/1P6/1QN2N2/3P1PPP/2B1R1K1 b - - 0 15
- - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-24 06:04
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5 Qd8 15. Bd5 Nf6

rnbq1k1r/pp2bppp/5n2/2PB4/1P6/1QN2N2/3P1PPP/2B1R1K1 w - - 0 16
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-24 06:55
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5 Qd8 15. Bd5 Nf6
16. b5

rnbq1k1r/pp2bppp/5n2/1PPB4/8/1QN2N2/3P1PPP/2B1R1K1 b - - 0 16
- - By Indrajit (***) [in] Date 2010-09-24 16:43
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5 Qd8 15. Bd5 Nf6
16. b5 Bg4
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-25 01:07
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. a3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. Bd3 e4 8. O-O Qf6
9. Bxe4 Qxa1 10. Qb3 Qf6 11. Re1 Be7 12. axb4 Kf8 13. Nc3 Qd6 14. c5 Qd8 15. Bd5 Nf6
16. b5 Bg4 17. Ba3

rn1q1k1r/pp2bppp/5n2/1PPB4/6b1/BQN2N2/3P1PPP/4R1K1 b - -
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-09-25 01:11 Edited 2010-09-25 01:23
It seems to me that the principal problem with black in this entire line post-rook sacrifice is that his forces are incredibly difficult to coordinate.  The few squares that allow him to link up with friendly pieces are either in the path of the pawn storm or under heavy threat by superior numbers.  Very difficult position to play for the second player...

Basically, white sacrifices a rook in order to deny black the opportunity of using his rooks during the middlegame.  Crazy gambit.
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / The Wild One: Sicilian Wing Gambit, Nanu variation?
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