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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Chess / CCC & moderation (locked)
- - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-01-31 03:47
Actually it is only Graham Banks who is out to ruin the remnants of CCC. The others moderators would be okay - but on the other hand they had the power to outvote him and didn´t do that. And I agree, it´s deepest, darkest middleage reigning there.

Well, just post here. Nobody will bother you if you stay polite at least.

Mike
Parent - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-01-31 05:08
Maybe you could start up a new talkchess forum ( un-moderated @ minus the BS naturally )??? You would be surprised how many ppl would quickly become members.
Parent - - By stvs (***) Date 2007-01-31 11:16
tnx michael waesch,vas and all team of this free opinion and poilte forum.such progressive mans who listen seriously any polite opinion guarantee the success
of rybka.and for a man vs machine: count the total score not one single game-draw eg.what is the latest score in 40 matches pablo vs ebgines? 5.5%, vs chesstiger 2007 with antihuman mode; 0-14, 0%
man vs machine is dead. no??
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-01-31 14:06
I think that everything is already said concerning Pablo´s way of drawing engines. The ball is now in the court of the programmers to deal with fortress/stonewall positions. Personally I also find those games uninteresting to watch when you already know what´s going on and what the trick is - it´s always the same.

Mike
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-01-31 18:53
Mike,

Your most true and uncontroversial post ever, I think!  All three sentences are spot on and I am not being facetious!
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-02 04:14
Had to laugh at that. If people stayed polite on CCC, they wouldn't have a problem there either.
It's only abusive people with hidden agendas that get themselves into strife.
You're right about one thing though - CCC is run by a team of moderators.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-02 15:34
Laugh as much as you like, but since more and more people come up with complaints only against you, it seems to be a fair assumption that you are the only problem there only capable of banning people with polite criticizm either about Chessbase or Pablo´s hundred and one bragging about how he wins against engines - using huge and capital letters which is considered to be more than impolite on every serious forum.

So the only one with hidden agendas is you. No doubt about that.

Mike
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-02 18:48 Edited 2007-02-02 18:56
I actually am the only moderator who doesn't like Pablo's posts and I'm the one who downsizes his lettering, so it shows you how much you really know.

I've also stated several times that constructive criticism of any computer chess product is welcome on CCC. That includes Chessbase products. Or have you conveniently forgotten this.

Your personal issues with playchess.com are well known. That doesn't give you a right to slander the playchess sysops in public.
Nobody will bother you on CCC either if you're polite.

I was thinking of having a break from moderating, but after your remarks and those of another loudmouth, I've pretty much decided to run again if nominated.
In the event that I then get voted in again, I wonder if that would convince you that yours is a minority view. Probably not.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-02 21:27
Your posts show how less informed you are and probably also how low educated you are. Lying won´t bring you anywhere. It´s definetely you who constantly kicks people with polite criticism on Pablo´s constant bragging about exploiting GUI bugs. You never ever downsized anything as long as I was around there. concerning the low level knowledge and stoneage mentality over there on CCC, I wouldn´t be any surprised if they elect you once again. No problem at all for me. They pretty much deserve a guy like you.

Concerning my "private" issues with Chessbase you admitted with your unfounded posts that you must be connected with Chessbase in one way or another. They have so often been caught doing illegal things - actually with screenshots and other proof without no doubt, so the fact alone you tried to defend them or downplay the matter as "my personal issues" shows how far you are off reality.

You are pretty much like Richard Stickles a small little "dictator" who most probably compensates personal problems with the abuse of your current moderator seat.

It must be a torture for you that there are fora where your little abusive moderation rules don´t apply and where people may talk freely without being afraid of being pestered by you. Well I couldn´t care less.

Mike
Parent - - By Guenther RWBC (**) Date 2007-02-02 22:48
Isn't there any forum without this Gewaesch?

Guenther
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 00:28
Yes, go to Talkchess.

Mike
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-03 00:42
Quite frankly you're talking out of your rear end, but I guess that most sensible people probably realise this anyway.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 01:29
Nah, everyone can plainly read on Talkchess your statements and see for his/her own that it was perfectly correct what I have written. And besides, neither me or the pal from Greece are the only one criticising your weird moderation policies on CCC where use abuse your possibilities to discard the unwanted truth. Here it simply doesn´t work and your impolite tone of voice and your insults speak for themselves.

And now I think you´ll just switch over to CCC and kick another innocent to brush up your ego again ... Yeghhh.

Mike
Parent - - By Christopher Conkie (**) Date 2007-02-03 02:17
Mike?

Be cool.....

There is no need for this. Anyway, how are you? You vanished all of a sudden. Thought something had happened to you.

Have you been away or something?

;)

Christopher
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 02:44
Sorry to disagree here. I think this is necessary. If it was only me who got victim of Mr. Banks I just would say "Okay, bad luck!", but there are now many others who also got the same unfair treatment and if not made public he just will go on like that. And was he "cool" when he kicked all these people for nothing? Was he "cool" when he told me that I speak "... out of my rear end ..."? Was he "cool" when he continued his lies here?

Concerning the other questions: I vanished to rethink my position in engine chess, my website on this subject for coming to the conclusion that it is not worth the effort. Too many people like Banks and Stickles who severly damaged the reputation of engine chess players to a point where you are no longer respected as human being when admitting that you have fun seeing engines play each other. At this point where I closed my website, I got emails from people stating that they miss my site and all the advices there which helped them playing online and that they don´t find it fair that they also have to suffer now because of people like Stickles and Banks etc ...

You also shouldn´t forget that I am disabled too. I suffer from diabetes although I am very slim and because I got it when I was young there are now complications already that the diabetes brings over the time, so I have to see doctors pretty often. And when I chat with other people who also had the displeasure of dealing with RS and GB and Co, I often find out that they are disabled too which lead me to ask myself if this is coincidence or intention...

Never mind. I am still here - and if it is only for proving people wrong when I think they really deserve it. I wouldn´t even have responded to Banks if he didn´t repeat his lies here. If he don´t stops, he gets screenshots, quotes etc. No problem at all. No effort at all.

Mike
Parent - - By Christopher Conkie (**) Date 2007-02-03 02:56
Agree to differ, no need to converse with each other if that is the way it is. Nothing left to say....let's talk about something else.....

You might be able to agree with the following concept anyway. I'd like to know your thoughts.

Does CB9 support CB native 64 Bit engines? You see Rybka x64 is UCI and so should not be affected....right?

Or?

I suppose i'm asking for someone else but logic dictates that CB9 is 32 Bit and therefore useless for x64 natives...yes? But UCI is OK....right?

Christopher
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 03:00
I use Chess Assistant and in some rare cases Chessbase 8, so I can´t answer your questions.

Mike
Parent - - By Christopher Conkie (**) Date 2007-02-03 03:27
Hehe......

I guessed you might say that....

:)

Christopher
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 03:31
I think that it wasn´t to hard to guess.

Mike
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-03 04:36
Genuinely sorry to hear about your health problems Mike.
My job involves organising educational programmes for students with disabilities, so you'll never find me with a bad word to say about people with disabilities.

I'm also genuinely sad that you really do believe all the things you've written about me as a moderator.
What I have tried to do as a CCC mod is to make the place more respectful and respectable. I have also been keen to see the spam account problem sorted out.

Personal attacks are against the CCC charta and that is why when people started attacking individuals, action was taken. Whenever such action is taken, it is with the approval of at least one other mod as Albert stated.
Same rule applied when I was moderating with Peter Skinner and Robert Hyatt.
The CCC mods work as a team, so no one individual is responsible for important decisions taken as Albert explained.

Although Chessbase GUIs are my preferred GUIs, I also run tournaments using the Shredder Classic II and Arena GUIs as you can see at the Arena forum or CCRL public forums.
I have stated that if the early draw option and extra pgn options can be added to Arena, I might actually prefer it over the Chessbase GUIs.

I can assure you that I'd never heard of Richard Stickles before the accusations against him were posted on CCC.
The only time I ever use playchess.com is to view big computer chess tournaments.
I basically see playchess.com as a place for boys with big toys.

I have also openly stated more than once that constructive and polite criticism of computer chess products is fine and Chessbase products are not excluded.
The Zap!Chess product was a disaster for example. Thankfully Anthony has tried to make amends for what was not necessarily all his own doing by releasing a free and very strong upgrade.

I am perfectly happy for you to post quotes or screenshots if you still think I'm the ogre that you portray.

However, we're both first and foremost computer chess enthusiasts and I'd like to think we could get along with each other.
I'm even prepared to apologise for my harsh words before.
Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Regards, Graham.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 06:42
Graham,

honestly, I don´t know what to think about you. On one hand you tell me that "my personal issues with Chessbase are well known and on the other hand you don´t know that I am disabled which is also no secret at all and could be read for more than a year on my webpage as crystal clear as my criticizm on Chessbase and especially Richard Stickles.

Your last posting is surely the most fact based and polite statement I have read from you for a while and I surely do not refute an offer of peace nor the opportunity to sort out misunderstandings if there have been some. I do not claim to be in possession of absolute truths and I always ask myself if it was my error when I get in trouble with others. I only take the offense when after thinking for quite a while and weighting the different arguments I have the impression my point of view holds firm.

And for one last time I will publicly go into the matter of Playchess and Richard Stickles - just to honor your lengthy and polite statement and give you a second chance to understand why criticism on these two are so persistent, and at least in my opionion important also.

At the end of the year 2005 I witnessed how multiple persons got banned from Playchess only because they stated publicly in the main chat of Playchess some bugs of Deep Fritz 8 and also stated that they can expect proper software for their money. I also knew that some of the banned were known to be rude, so I couldn´t say much about the reasons given for the bans, but some weeks later more and more people came up with the same complaints and even stated problems and bugs I also encountered. These people very known to me to be very polite - even in complaining about bugs. So I investigated the matter and wrote to Chessbase Hamburg and asked for a statement. They never answered, just like the complainers expected. Assuming that something really runs wrong on Playchess I investigated deeper and checked accounts and was merely shocked. There were people guested which never used a bad word. There were ranks given to people who simply didn´t meet the requirements and on top of that there was an account named "Joshua Stickles" which was given rank of Bishop for some dozens of engines games while the rules clearly demand a substantially higher amount of games.

At that point (beginning 2006) I was already playing on ICC for 2 months because I was sick and tired of such a company and their weird acting sysops. So having switched already to a proper server I thought it would be no big loss to find out the truth and so I posted all those ongoings backed with screenshots and other proof on my website and got instantly banned by Mr. Stickles. Officially he announced a 3 month suspension, but in reality he just guested all my (to him visible) accounts which equals a lifetime ban since you need higher rank for rated and/or engine play. Chessbase Hamburg hadn´t anything to say about that.

Since I switched to ICC and was fully satisfied with it and Arena too it surely was no big loss, but when I later learned that Mr. Stickles bannings found no end and often hit people with more severe disabilities - sitting in a wheel chair all day and relying on some fun with the computer on Playchess and then being banned just for asking for a bugfix??? This is harsh! Taking away one of the few remaining pleasures from disabled for that? Man, that´s why I only see red when someone mentiones Stickles. One of the more severe disabled who also got illegally banned by Stickles wrote me that he intends to even sue Chessbase for discriminating disabled - and the web is full of stories like that and you will read one name again and again, so this is the reason why I reacted somewhat allergic to your statement that these are "private issues" of me ... I still get mails from banned people, most hoping that I can at least helpt them to play on ICC and a minority to tell me that they got their 29 buck refund from Chessbase due to Stickles. That´s another reason why I closed my website. I have warned the people - they wouldn´t listen and when the ineviteable ban struck them they come on running to me ... Well, too late.

I also sincerly hope that the face you showed in your last posting is your real one and if you help disabled people, my hat is off to you. It´s just like I said and I didn´t ever change my mind. One can always talk seriously with me and I am always prepared to seek agreement when the opposite also comes a step towards me. I wouldn´t even refuse Mr. Stickles if he comes up with a reasonable proposal other than his ... : Now! Have you learned your lesson? You may come back under my conditions! Obey every word from me!

Mike
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-03 07:18
Hi Mike,

I am genuine in my intentions.

I must confess I hadn't visited your website, but wish I had done so.

From what you've explained to me, I can fully understand why you're unhappy about the playchess.com situation.
I can also understand now why you interpreted some of the actions taken on CCC as being hostile.

I have no ties with Chessbase or playchess.com, but just try to be part of a moderation team that wishes the CCC forums to remain polite and respectful.
I'm sorry that you felt there could be a hidden agenda. I can assure you there isn't.
I would like nothing more than for you to feel welcome there.

One of the students I'm currently in charge of is a 16 year old girl who only has months to live. She has advanced brochiecstasis, is mainly confined to a wheelchair and is on oxygen for 23 hours a day.
Such situations can be difficult to deal with emotionally.

Most of the students I deal with have learning difficulties though - Asperberger's Syndrome, autism, dyscalculia, dyslexia, dyspraxia, etc.

I again apologise for insulting you.

Regards, Graham.
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 08:11
I see. Obviously there have been multiple misunderstandings. But at least you are informed by now for there will surely come up other people on CCC with Playchess and Stickles issues and they will feel just the same like me if their words are just deleted ...

Mike
Parent - - By Albert Silver (***) Date 2007-02-03 02:04
I hate to say it, but you are so wrong. In fact, you have no idea what you are talking about. Really.

Decisions are almost all made consulting one another, and of the two of us, I was the outspoken Pablo sympathizer, not he. We talk via MSN regularly, and the subject of Pablo has come up more than once, obviously. You want to blame someone, be sure you have the right person.

It boils down to this: Pablo is gentle-spirited, if excessive. As his excessiveness is limited to his threads, and he doesn't actually flood the forums with new threads, and the material is on topic and non-abusive: He has a clean bill of health.

If you don't like his posts, or those of any member you find you just can't stand, my advice is: don't read them. If you dislike the material yet return non-stop to read more and dwell on it, you are either not very bright, or a serious masochist. I myself, actually never read them. Seen one, seen them all. If you apply this to yourself, it will also no doubt do wonders for your blood pressure.

Peace,

Albert
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-02-03 02:22
No verbal tricks or what so ever will turn the facts around, no matter how desperately you try. It was Graham who proudly announced here that he also thinks that using capital letters in postings are impolite and that he downsizes them. A plain LIE, nothing else. I just checked it out and found dozens of these posts with others also complaining. Never anything happened except that people were kicked by Graham either for criticism on Pablo´s myriads of posts or on Chessbase products.

He even embarassed himself by pointing out that he finds it okay to criticise companies as whole but not their employees totally neglecting (or not wanting to be true) that the people make a company and not vice versa. Such people demonstrate over and over again that they are totally ignorant and learn-resistent, so touch your own nose with your advice to be sure to get the real guy.

It was Graham and not you who pointed out that he thinks the matter about weird Chessbase sysops are my own private little issues in order to downplay his weird actions on CCC. He never ever bothered to also hear the other side or to read the given links in another big thread here where it is shown withut doubt that what I have written occurs daily and not only to me.

It was Graham and not you who chased away a bunch of people with substantial and good knowledge in engine chess who never ever will return to CCC. I didn´t compare Graham with Richard Stickles without reasons. There are too many parallels. When on CCC many people tell him "Yes, Sir!" or what ever he wants to hear and behind his neck they laugh at him.

It was Graham and not you who discarded many polite statements, although containing criticism on Chessbase, and got harsh answers from some users which he deleted also. But he wasn´t fast enough, so many have already read it and then thought due to his improper actions that it must be very true elsewise he wouldn´t have deleted it.

And you tell me that I have the wrong guy? Nah ...

I surely know that your job as moderator isn´t like licking sugar and that you have to deal daily with numerous complaints you have to find a way to deal with - but on the other hand nobody forced you to volunteer for that job and what Graham does goes far beyond anything a mod should do - even if he has a bad day.

Peace?

Mike
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-02-03 15:04 Edited 2007-02-03 15:11
Graham Banks , ......

just exactly @ whose tailpipes are you aiming the sunshine gun???
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-03 19:22
Very good!   :-)

The truth is that I'm a reasonable person who would prefer to be able to get on with everyone.
Unfortunately that's not possible because some don't allow it.
At least Mike and I have been able to sort things out so to speak.
However, somebody made a true statement on CTF about another member when they said:
"if you extend the hand of friendship towards them, it will get chopped off"
Unfortunately some people just don't want to "get on" with others.
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-02-04 07:49
Graham Banks wrote:

"if you extend the hand of friendship towards them, it will get chopped off"

hahahhahaha sure , sure.....

Were all reasonable according to our nature arent we? But that doesnt sound so reasonable to me Graham. I have no idea what you ment when you said " get-on" and to tell the truth , I probably dont want to know....

ewwwww....

I constantly see you and the rest of the trolls on ccc doing all sorts of things to glorify yourselves and shout anyone down that has an opinion otherwise. ( I won't list your names and try to belittle you and obtain the location of your home , like some ppl would )as if anyone would actually care lol. That just wouldn't make "reasonable" sense to me.

But sense your such a reasonable man Graham , I'm sure you already understand.

Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-02-04 08:08 Edited 2007-02-04 08:11
Like I said, some people just don't want to be reasonable, especially some who hide behind pseudos it would seem.
Takes a lot of guts to hide behind a pseudo and cause trouble.
At least Michael and myself were able to have an adult conversation.

Regards, Graham.
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-02-04 09:19
Graham ,

Changing the subject is not going to work. It never does...I know what Graham Banks is all about and so does everyone else. I'm not about to listen to your BS any longer. What I have written , I have written.
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-02-04 09:23
BTW , personally , I can give two less ____s about someones real name. I just don't see the importance. It doesn't change one single thing about a person's nature. Get real brother...
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-02-04 09:45
And in the event that you should respond to my posts graham , don't bother . My BS filter is running at 100%.
Parent - - By nuff (**) Date 2007-03-10 10:41
I'm new to TalkChess and I thought I was the only one having problems. Some geezer called Terry McCracken makes a fool out of himself, calls me a jerk, troll in public and has no action taken against him? Is this Terry McCracken the owner of the site or what? If i do find his page on Wikipedia I would like do "do it" some justice.
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-03-10 11:23
Well , what can one say except that the audiance isn't blind......
Parent - - By sam_i_am (**) Date 2007-03-10 11:25
Even if it were an un-moderated forum , the level of profanity , insults and trolling all together would not change.
Parent - - By DamirD81 (***) Date 2007-03-10 17:38
Here is what some other people say about talkchess. What kind of place it really is.

This place is actually comprised of two subforums: The Computer Chess Club (CCC) and The Chess Thinkers Forum (CTF). Both components have in past censored slightly unpopular speech or ideas, especially with regard to world politics, and applied double standards. For example, the CTF moderators don't allow members whom they don't like to criticize others, deeming such posts "trolls", yet they allowed another more popular member to post a criminal libel against one of the talkchess.com founders, who has previously been conveniently banned from the forum (the fact that one of the founders is banned from the forum speaks volumes about how "excellent" that place is). The CCC moderators, on the other hand, didn't allow discussions about ethics of computer cheating in chess, deeming them "off topic" for computer chess, and banned the pertinent users. They even required users to use words in accordance with moderators' own definitions, rather than the dictionary ones - see http://s6.invisionfree.com/Free_FICS_Forum/index.php?showtopic=88 . Chris Whittington, one of the CCC founders said "I wrote the charter for the CCC forum, and if I had realised how bad it could get, I'ld have written in numerous checks and balances to deal with rogue moderators and group bullying. Even so the tendency to little Hitlerism is so strong here for some reason that I doubt anything much could ever have been done." CCC and CTF tend to resemble a democracy by allowing their users to elect the moderators for a 6 month term, however they seem to have forgotten that one of the essential values in democracy is Freedom of Speech. talkchess.com appears to have recently changed slightly towards a pro-free-speech forum though, and CCO welcomes this change, however this change is not enough and we expect and encourage more change in that direction in the future.
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-03-10 18:13
CTF = Chess Thinkers Forum ... This once led me to the conclusion that the brightest minds exchange brilliant ideas and insights, but in reality it´s only a trash dump for failed personalities - at least it seems so to me.

The CCC Forum looks to me like a beginners forum for people interested in computer chess, a platform to express their rookie-questions about which engine is good for what and what sort of chess computer to buy, often getting the weirdest answers one could not even imagine possible. Every now and then some of the more skilled people comes around and tries to help out, lifting the overall knowledge there to about lower mediocre, but all in all it looks like a circus where users have to always be aware of the "preferences" of the mods in order not be kicked or banned. And kicked or banned are always people with opinions that counter the ones of the mods, never ever any trolls posting myriads of content-empty nonsense get kicked. Best example: Terry.

Mike
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-03-10 20:35
What makes you think that no action was taken against Terry? There are always two sides to every story.

Regards, Graham.
Parent - - By nuff (**) Date 2007-04-06 00:18
How come Terry McCracken can repeatedly hurl insults and the moderators usually clean out his insults? This gives rise to the feeling that Terry McCracken is illegally "protected" by the moderators.
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-04-06 01:31
Terry has recently served a ban, so you're wrong.

As for cleaning out insults, it happens to others also, including yourself recently.

Regards, Graham.
Parent - - By Terry McCracken (**) Date 2007-04-06 01:55
Hi Graham...tell him if he keeps trolling, he's next.
Parent - - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-04-06 01:58
When "John" keeps on topic, his posts are welcome.

If he goes out of his way to target others, that is not welcome and will be dealt with accordingly.
Parent - - By z0qxz (**) Date 2007-04-06 02:34
u f**k idiot!!   snore!!! u mean nothing to me... just plain idiot.. i mean .. Terry
Parent - By Terry McCracken (**) Date 2007-04-06 05:25
That was intelligent...well Mr. Anonymous, you mean nothing to me as well, and you described yourself to a tee.

I think it's time this thread was locked as well.
Parent - By Henrik Dinesen (***) Date 2007-04-06 07:00
A warning to you here!

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