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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Hiaka or Rybarcs
- - By Razor (****) Date 2007-07-26 17:57
Hi Vas,

What about teaming up with Mark to produce the next major improvement; don't let the name get in the way!  :o)
Parent - - By revengeska (**) Date 2007-07-26 18:46
Nah that'd never work, it's a complete clash of philosophies.  The Hiarcs team is out to alienate customers and get every last penny for their product, even if it means major user inconvenience, while Vas is more about improving strength and gaining customers, while building name and reputation.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 18:59
Fully agreed.

Mike
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) Date 2007-07-27 07:27

> Two planets meet: "How are you?". "Oh, I am feeling bad. I was infested with homo sapiens!".


with a reply like "Oh, no fear, shurely that diseasy will not last long..."

Quap
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-27 18:10
Yes, indeed.

Mike
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-26 19:11

>The Hiarcs team is out to alienate customers and get every last penny for their product, even if it means major user inconvenience,


What does that mean with more details.....?

In my opinion Hiarcs product is one of the best as a product:
-Superb engine.
-Free updates.
-Nice customer support.
-AND: It's one of the few engines that guarantees REAL engine strength improvement between different versions.

I'm a bit ashamed i'm still at the older Hiarcs 8 and Hiarcs 7.32, but after Rybka 2.1i i don't feel the need for now for something stronger. When i will buy a multiCPU PC then i will start thinking again about buying Hiarcs 11.1,Rybka 2.3.2a, Shredder 11,Deep Fritz 10, etc....
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 19:29
In my opinion Hiarcs is one of the worst as a product:

Mediocre engine
Insulting customer support
Intolerable copy protection

It seems that you don´t read this forum very often.

Mike
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-26 20:23

>In my opinion Hiarcs is one of the worst as a product:


>Mediocre engine


Why do you say that?
This is OBVIOUSLY wrong!
It is 2nd or 3rd in most lists and anyway inside top 6 in all lists.

If you call Hiarcs engine, mediocre, than automatically Zap!Chess, Shredder, Fritz, Loop, Junior, Chess Tiger, etc are mediocre too.
Also The King, The Baron, Movei, an all other engines that are lower than the top one's, are bad engines.
Also Petir,Delfi,Colossus etc that are even lower, are a disgrace of the humanity.
So Micromax's RomiChess's, Arion's etc authors, should be executed immediately for the amazingly bad engines they have created.

Only Rybka remains from this, but since Rybka is living in a world of mediocre engines and beats these mediocre engines, then Rybka is not so good as we thought it is..... She should play against some good engines to show her strength.....

All that according to you.....

I disagree completely. Hiarcs is a super engine and you know it. Of course i may be wrong and if you explain me the reasons you say it is a mediocre engine in the Chess strength area i may change my mind.....

>Insulting customer support


You can change my opinion about this too, if you tell me some examples.....

>Intolerable copy protection


I agree that that kind of copy protection is very bad and i dislike it but since it protects Hiarcs from being pirated, i think i can justify them for using it....
Fruit 2.2 had a similar copy protection and suddenly stopped working in my PC asking for the code and since i couldn't find where i had the code i was without Fruit for about 3 weeks. Thankfully they released Fruit 2.2 for free so now i have again the Fruit....

>It seems that you don´t read this forum very often.


I read it every day, but i don't read all posts people make here and also my memory for that kind of things is not the best there is....
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 20:31
Sorry, but you are not very well informed and obviously you also don´t run engine vs engine matches. Just run Hiarcs against Rybka and you know all you need to know. And yes, nowadays every engine besides Rybka is mediocre. Rybka is not only the #1, it is the #1 by a huge margin.

And no, I don´t give you examples of insulting behavior of Team Hiarcs against heavily disabled persons like me. You can find it yourself on this forum. If you don´t know it by now then only because you did not want to know it.

And no, there is no justification at all for such a behavior or applying such rude business methods. The Hiarcs key which locks Hiarcs to a specific system and rendering the engine completely useless if changed made me run away from Hiarcs and the insults from Mr. Williamson and Mr. Uniake made me to never ever buy Hiarcs again, no matter what achievements could be made.

And no, you simply can´t judge if there are regular improvements in strength with Hiarcs when you only own V7 and V8.

Your statements are unfounded and far off reality.

Mike
Parent - - By -valdimor- (**) Date 2007-07-26 20:44
pfffffffffffffff

you can beat HIARCS i don't think so just try if you beat it i will make a video of myself stripping to some gay song and upload it on youtube
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2007-07-26 20:48
Come on Michael, you can do it!. 
LOL
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 21:10
Forgive me, but the least thing I want to see is him stripping his clothes off!

Just let me give some additional comments for enlarging the contrast between (Team) Hiarcs and (Team) Rybka:

IM Vasik Rajlich knows the game of Chess himself very well. He earned his title with his brain alone and his chessic skills using no computer assistance like it is usual nowadays in the so called correspondence chess. When the first Rybka beta came out and smashed any opposition encountered a lot of people argued that this is due to the symbiosis between Rajlich´s chess knowledge and his programming skills. A combination incorporated in one person which was definetely new to the engine scene back then. First he wanted his beta to expire but later he decided to let us have it for free and as long as it seems to be useful for us.

He the worked very hard to constantly improve his engine and not only by some small margins but in huge steps, providing major versions for the more serious ones and a lot of betas for the engine fans and more experienced users. He did his best to satisfy every part of the variety in his customers. He constantly refused to apply any sort of copy-protecting mechanism arguing that it is an everyone´s waste of time which gave him huge credibility amongst the Chess players around the world. More and more titled players started to use Rybka too. It supports the nowadays common standard UCI format and is easily installed under many GUIs.

Vasik Rajlich then assembled a team of most competent people in order to have them help foster the strength of Rybka and they all did a superb job. And in vast contrast to team members of other engines, I never saw Vasik Rajlich make any human disdaining comment, any flaming comment, any trolling comment etc. No, he was always helpful and I never saw anyone going finally away with no support at all. Yes, it´s the job of Convekta to deal with the commercial aspects of the enterprise, but if everything fails, Vasik can and will sort it out for you. He even helped me with technical issued during the Ehlvest matches where he surely had other things in mind than explaining me the specialities of the CA-browser and cross-chatting with the people responsible.

Rajlich never released dead old code for reviving his campaign or even loudly advertised his engines in other fora. He never was that desperate. His engine always was on top and he deserved every single bit of success and fame because he rather puts efforts, energy, sweat and blood in his "little baby" than trying to push it with questionable methods.

I don´t say that Rybka has everything I want to see in a chess engine and that there is no longer room for improvement, but it is the closest match to my needs I could find - and I certainly will recommend it on my website when I had time to properly work over the pages.

Vasik once said that in engine chess the so called "mouth to mouth propaganda" should not be under-estimated and I agree. And all this is the reason why it works for him driving the customers towards Rybka while on the other hand this mouth to mouth propaganda drives people away from Hiarcs.

Mike
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-26 21:27

>When the first Rybka beta came out and smashed any opposition encountered a lot of people argued that this is due to the symbiosis between >Rajlich´s chess knowledge and his programming skills.


Perhaps it is for this reason. But i don't agree. I don't think Rybka's so big superiority it is because it has special knowledge about some things, that other engines don't have it and that is because Vasik is an IM. I think it's a "programming" thing that makes Rybka so much stronger..... Perhaps i'm wrong of course.

>I never saw Vasik Rajlich make any human disdaining comment, any flaming comment, any trolling comment etc.


You are not 100% correct. I agree that Vasik is a very very clever in his answers person and also he is a very very calm person, generally an amazing personality, but to say he never made any flaming comment is wrong since once for example replied to Vincent Diepeveen that Diep is from the  TSCP family. It was a very good joke of course if you read the whole topic but it was a bit flaming.....

>His engine always was on top and he deserved every single bit of success


This is not correct since Rybka existed before 3-4 years too, but it was not a top engine back then.....

>I don´t say that Rybka has everything I want to see in a chess engine and that there is no longer room for improvement, but it is the closest >match to my needs I could find - and I certainly will recommend it on my website when I had time to properly work over the pages.


Yes Rybka is definitely the best option out there. But it is not the best option for every reason one could think of. It is the best option by far, but generally, and not in all areas.
Also the fact that it is the best option the strongest Chess entity does not mean that other engines are mediocre and can't help in Chess analysis etc. Hiarcs, Shredder etc are of super GM strength too. You can't call that mediocre.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 21:54
Are you Uri and only here to disagree? If there wasn´t the flag of Greece ...

I already told you that I respect your opinion although I don´t think you are correct. And if you want to call Hiarcs a good engine, do it, but others may have different opinions which you should respect also. And if you want to buy an engine which is locked to a specific system configuration and take the risk to simply get insulted when you have complaints, just do it - but also respect people who do not want to buy such stuff nor want to be treated that way.

Mike
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-26 22:09

>Are you Uri and only here to disagree? If there wasn´t the flag of Greece ...


I don't understand this comment. Did you think that Uri is me or me is Uri or whatever?
This is obviously wrong i assure you. :)

>And if you want to call Hiarcs a good engine, do it, but others may have different opinions which you should respect also.


And how you got the impression i don't respect their/your opinion?
I respect it and i understand that you have this opinion and i have no problem with it. I just disagree with it and i already told you that you just can't call Hiarcs mediocre because things are relative and you should say in what areas is mediocre.....

An opinion is not always subjective. If it is related to some facts and it contradicts these facts then the opinion is wrong.
If you say Hiarcs is mediocre in every area because Rybka is much better from it in engine-engine matches, you are wrong, since the fact that Rybka is much better from it in engine-engine matches, does imply that Hiarcs is mediocre in comparison to Rybka in engine-engine matches, but it does not imply that Hiarcs is mediocre in beating human IM's or does not imply that Hiarcs is mediocre in King attacks, so there is at least an area where Hiarcs can't be called mediocre, so the statement "Hiarcs is a mediocre engine" is wrong....
Of course if you say that in engine-engine matches in comparison with Rybka, Hiarcs is mediocre, then you would be correct. Is this what are you saying?
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 20:49
Where did I say that I can beat Hiarcs? Even the most lousy chess engine can move my Patzer-a** off the board. I was talking about engine vs engine.

Mike
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-26 21:02

>Sorry, but you are not very well informed and obviously you also don´t run engine vs engine matches. Just run Hiarcs against Rybka and you >know all you need to know.


No. The fact that i don't usually run engine-engine matches is irrelevant, since there is another way: Downloading games from various sources(CEGT,CCRL,other player tournaments etc) and watching them. It is equivalent like having the engine and play engine-engine matches.....

Also the engine-engine matches is not the only criterion about when an engine is mediocre or at super level. The analysis each engine provides is the other critical factor. Rybka is best there also, but lacks ability in some areas like tactics and especially in King attacks. I guess there you can't call Hiarcs mediocre right?

>And yes, nowadays every engine besides Rybka is mediocre.


Well it's your definition of mediocre that it seems strange to me and i disagree with it. You believe that if someone is much better than all others are mediocre. I disagree with it.....

My definition of mediocre is to have 100 engines and:
-First group of ELOs(for example having the same range of ELO)= I call them top engines(in strength area).
If we have Rybka in them then we define another level of super and unreachable engine.
-The next range of engines with a specific ELO range = I call them very good engines(in strength area).
-The next range of engines with a specific ELO range = I call them  good engines.
-The next range of engines with a specific ELO range = I call them mediocre/medium engines.
-The next range of engines with a specific ELO range = I call them weak engines.
-The next and final range of engines with a specific ELO range = I call them very weak engines.

>And no, I don´t give you examples of insulting behavior of Team Hiarcs against heavily disabled persons like me. You can find it yourself on this >forum. If you don´t know it by now then only because you did not want to know it.


No. I don't know it, but not because i don't want to know it. I don't know it, because i haven't read any posts about it or because i have read and i just don't remember anything about it....

>And no, you simply can´t judge if there are regular improvements in strength with Hiarcs when you only own V7 and V8.


I disagree. As i have said having the engine is not necessary to judge about its strength. I have downloaded almost all games from various sources and also i see the behavior of each engine people post at forums on solving testpositions.....
Also i'm able to read the rating lists, for example CEGT and CCRL. These lists if you see them too, show a +30 to +80 ELO increment for a Hiarcs to its predecessor's version.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 21:15
Sorry, I am not interested in information how engines perform on computers of other people. I only go with information how engines do on my system.

You can split up the groups of good and bad engines in whatever you like, but I think when there is such a superior engine all other engines are at least mediocre. Either superb programs can define new standards or not. If not, Fritz 1 still rules.

Besides, initially we were talking about team Hiarcs alienate their customers ...

Mike
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-26 21:46

>You can split up the groups of good and bad engines in whatever you like, but I think when there is such a superior engine all other engines are >at least mediocre.


Everything is relative.
I guess you can call Hiarcs mediocre in comparison with Rybka in engine-engine area.
But you can't call Hiarcs mediocre in comparison with Rybka in King attacks area.
Also you can't call Hiarcs mediocre in comparison with other human GM's.
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-26 21:57
Now what? Are you now going for errors in punctuation too?

I call Hiarcs mediocre in general and especially in comparison to Rybka in terms of engine vs engine. I don´t have a problem to admit that any engine has some advantages over any other engine in some fields.

Mike
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2007-07-27 00:33
My opinion is that Hiarcs is not a mediocre engine but Rybka is of course a stronger engine and by a good margin. This is this way, since the version 1.0 came out. 
 
Rybka has been distanced too much of all its competitors, and it is certain that today per today, there is no engine that can play against Rybka in a long match and have positive results. But even this way, Hiarcs is very strong and it fights clearly the second or the third place with Zappa or Shredder.  
 
I also, dislike the Hiarcs protection. That is a problem and something that should be changed. Unfortunately, there are many ways  to remove these protections and in nowadays it is too easy. So, why to worry about these kind of things? Note that I am NOT in favor of the piracy but, this is quite certain.  
 
Regards, 
Gambito. 
Parent - By revengeska (**) Date 2007-07-27 15:48
I agree with Michael except for the mediocre part.  Sure, it's a decent engine, but when you surround it with all kinds of laws and copy protection that severely restricts what the customer can do, it's really not worth taking out your hard earned cash and putting it towards something like that.  And copy protection isn't going to stop anyone from copying it anyways, that's just a part of closed software.  If people want it bad enough, they'll pirate it, no need to bring your actual customer base down for a fruitless cause.
Parent - By chesstango (**) Date 2007-07-27 01:09
I agree.
Mark gives me: -state of the art engine.
-Free updates.
-Very Nice customer support.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-07-27 05:21
Hi Razor,

I think you should stick with Hiarcs as its an acronym. The name would, of course, have to change from High Intelligence Anti Rybka Chess System to something like Hiarcs Intelligence And Rybka Chess System.

;-)

Harvey
Parent - - By BigBen (****) Date 2007-07-27 09:41
Hi,
    I think HIARCS has always been a good engine ... I can remember the battles of Mark Uniacke, Richard Lang (chess genius) and other programmers like Dan and Kathy Sprachlan (chess challengers) ... Many of these programmers have vanished from the chess scene but HIARCS is still here which I think speaks volumes ... I think Eric Hallsworth still does the HIARCS book and before the Internet became what it is today his magazine  selective search http://www.elhchess.demon.co.uk/sscontnt.htm was one of the few lights in the dark concerning computer chess, I met him a couple of times when he was at the Red House when the Mephistos ruled :) and he always seemed a decent person ...

HIARCS is the only what I call mainstream engine that constantly plays against Rybka in tournaments where others duck and dive (you know who you are) ... Vas can answer this but without HIARCS and others I dont think Rybka would be here? ....

Yes Rybka is the strongest engine but still has plenty of bugs

When you sell a product you cant please 100% of your customers and Michael falls into this catagory but look how many complaints about Convekta we read about on this forum and everyone moans about chessbase at some time or other lol ...

I think the HIARCS team (Mark I guess) was probably wrong with the way they tried to protect there software from piracy but it is a tough call especially when you see people even in the playchess engine room blatently asking for someone to send them an engine or asking where can they download it from. I have not purchased the latest HIARCS because of the protection as I change hardware at times more than some change underwear.

Just me 2 pence worth

Regards
Tony
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-07-27 10:28
Hi Tony,

Hiarcs 11.2 will probably be released today with modified protection - so you may now decide to buy!

Thanks for your remarks I will make sure Mark and Eric see them.

Best Wishes,

Harvey
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2007-07-27 19:58
Thanks to you too Harvey. 
 
Hiarcs is a great program and it always has been one of my favorites programs since 1997, when Kasparov used it regularly before their second match against Deep Blue.  
 
Greetings to Mark. 
 
Regards, 
Gambito.
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-07-27 18:13
Yes, but for Chessbase engines it´s just enough to have the CD/DVD inserted once for a quick check up. I don´t say that they perform any better against Rybka, but still ...

Mike
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2007-07-27 21:50
Very good!  :-)
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2007-07-28 16:44
Hiarcs 11.2 is very good too; noticeably better than 11.1
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-28 17:30
Do you have any early results that supports your claim.....?

Or you are speaking about stability etc....?
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2007-07-28 21:32
Just my own assessment - I have only used it for one day.
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2007-07-28 21:41
Can you give us some examples of the improvements?.
Parent - By Razor (****) Date 2007-07-29 11:26
Many examples - perhaps the most obvious ones to me so far relate to openings that favour the attacking player!  Such as, for example, the Morra.  I reached the following position from a club match I was involved in a couple of weeks ago.

wKg1,Qe3,Nc3,f3,Bb3,Rc1,d1,Pa2,b2,e4,f2,g2,h2/bKg7,Qe8,Nc6,Bc8,e7,Ra8,f8,Pa6,b5,d7,e6,f7,h6,h7

Hiarcs 11.1 finds the move I played (14.e5) after about 120mins on my machine.  Hiarcs 11.2 finds 14.e5 after 50mins on my machine.  It is also worth noting that Rybka 2.3.2a finds 14.e5 around the same time as Hiarcs 11.2 - although it took Rybka two half plys further before selecting e5.  Rybka's similar time was achieved as Rybka achieves a greater depth than Hiarcs 11.2 using the same time - looking at this conversely you could say H11.2 has found e5 using fewer search plies.  Similarly, Hiarcs 11.2 obtains a greater depth than Hiarcs 11.1 on my machine, due mainly I guess to the improved MP capabilty of H11.2.

As I already owner Hiarcs 11.1, H11.2 was a free upgrade and certainly so far looking to me to be a very good tool to add to my toolkit of chess analysis software.
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