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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Vas, why not give us the best Rybka possible?
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- - By billyraybar (***) Date 2010-06-09 23:38
Please do not overreact to the threat of reverse engineering.  I am a loyal customer and believe I am entitled to the best Rybka possible.  Holding back innovation because of these hackers only hurts yourself and us customers.  In my opinion, those hackers are low life stealers (although the law is less clear http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi#QID191).  It seems the Rybka team was caught off guard some time back with the reverse engineering of their engine.  Was it really such a surprise?  Don't software developers expect their products to be reverse engineered?  I mean, it happens every day.  Microsoft, Apple, sony, and the like all deal with it constantly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design).  Of course you can do with your program whatever you want, but I will not rent Rybka.  No way.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-06-10 06:00
Unofficial answer: because of the rental model, that needs an edge over the commercial version for people to buy it.
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-06-10 06:05
Only partly true, the rental model should be superior based on cluster hw.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2010-06-10 15:19
Since people would rent on a "per core" basis, this shouldn't be relevant.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-06-10 17:04
This was one of the main rationales at the time; that people wouldn't have to invest in advanced hw anymore.

It will be very much price driven imo, with the prices suggested at the time it's a dead duck.
Parent - By Quapsel (****) Date 2010-06-10 06:34

> Unofficial answer: because of the rental model...


Maybe.
But I assume, if this would get visible a lot of up to now constant defraying UCI-Rybka customers will be 'not amused'.
Quap
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2010-06-10 08:08 Edited 2010-06-10 08:12

>Unofficial answer: because of the rental model, that needs an edge over the commercial version for people to buy it.


To rent it i guess, not buy it.

And if that's true then Rybka for me as a product is over. :-(

PS: I can see a line of emoticons along with the other tags for bold, italic etc.
But i can't use them. I press an emoticon and nothing happens.
Also an extra bad thing happened after this change they applied, is that pressing the bold or italic or the other tags does not work anymore. Nothing is happening. Before the change of putting the emoticons up there, all worked perfectly. That is on Mozilla Firefox 3.6 with all Javascript et al enabled for Rybkaforum.

PS2: I see that conventional text for emoticons is not transformed into the pictures of the corresponding emoticons. E.g i don't see a smile after :-)  nor a big smile after :-D.
What is happening?
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2010-06-10 08:21
:confused::cool::yell::wink::twisted::surprised::smile::slim::sad::roll::red::razz::neutral::mad::lol::grin::fat::evil::cool:
for me it works :smile:
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2010-06-10 08:29
Internet browser?

For me it works too on Chrome.:neutral::mad::slim::surprised::fat::fat:
But not on Firefox.:cry::cry::cry:
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2010-06-10 08:37
I'm at work now - so it is IE 8 :sad:
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2010-06-10 08:34
And as it happens always, a variation of Murphy's law i guess, after i've made the post on Chrome and returned here with Firefox, i can post emoticons with Firefox too!:twisted:
WTF????
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-06-10 09:17
You need to click on the buttons over the post, typing :) doesn't work anymore.
Parent - By Sesse (****) Date 2010-06-11 02:36
Good; I was tired of it converting my nice traditional smileys to HTML. =)

/* Steinar */
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-11 08:29

> You need to click on the buttons over the post, typing :) doesn't work anymore.


Aha! But why?

Vas
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2010-06-11 09:11
The forum software has been updated - the command for the graphic is :smile: now.

I kind of like that way of doing it, as I also prefer the old school smiley :)
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-11 09:18
Ok, thanks, I've got this working now. :cool:

I wonder if there is any reason not to automatically display both. :confused:

Vas
Parent - By sarciness (***) Date 2010-06-11 03:31
Usually, we use PPS (post-post-script) rather than PS2. Just thought you might find that useful/interesting, not trying to correct you.
Parent - By Schiffermueller (*) Date 2010-06-10 14:54

> Unofficial answer: because of the rental model, that needs an edge over the commercial version for people to buy it.


I think the main reason is not a commercial one but not to give the cloners new ideas.
Parent - By staylor (***) Date 2010-06-12 21:53
I would want the rental version, because of the great hardware. Not because I'm being tricked to pay by the minute, in exhorbitant sums.
Parent - - By Knight (**) Date 2010-06-10 06:48
Rental model needs 50+ ELO in software strength + 150+ ELO in hardware strength to have decisive advantage over Rybka 4. That should make few rich people willing to pay big money to use it in playchess..etc. Also some GMs could use it for training. The money that the Rental Rybka generates could make small customers even smaller! However, only time will tell if this will be a big innovative history making success :grin:, or just an Idea that seemed good :cry:, or anything in between :cool:
Parent - - By Eckeneckepen (*) Date 2010-06-10 09:04
I dont think that GM need it for training.

The strength of GM is sooooo low that a simple notebook with stockfish & r3/4  is enough.

Even Kramnik, Anand and Topalov dont need that.

Cloud Rybka is just a playing ball.

But why are we all buying that strong uci engines? Very easy answer: Because we enjoy having the world strongest engine on our own computer .

It makes no fun to know that there is a computer somewhere in the world with an engine installed with more strength where i have to pay for each single analysis.

I would never pay Chrilly a cent for asking him to analyse a single position with his hydra. Of course, the only thing I am interested in, is the overall playingstrength of Rybka Cluster and Hydra. Tested f.e. by CEGT conditions with 1000 games, not by developer assumptions based on a handful  games (hydra).
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2010-06-10 12:19 Edited 2010-06-10 12:22
I do not agree with you.

GM need the best possible program to give them the best move in the opening book that they remember.

Humans who memorize better lines can get advantage in the opening.
getting an advantage in the opening is important even if both you and your opponent play the middle game weaker than computers.
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2010-06-10 18:54
It is not necessary for a better opening move to be a better one played by the GM.
The move itself can be better for reasons outside the scope of an GM's understanding. So the GM has no advantageous way of following up on the move vs. a slightly worst move but has greater understanding on how to follow up on.

My point is exaggerated yet more understood here.

Assume chess is solved and white can always win with 1.e4
A GM knowing that would be to no advantage to him/her since he/she wouldn't know how to follow up on the move (the advantages of the move is beyond the scope of their understanding due to the complex nature of chess).
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2010-06-10 23:26

> Assume chess is solved and white can always win with 1.e4
> A GM knowing that would be to no advantage to him/her since he/she wouldn't know how to follow up on the move


So, what you're saying is that someone solved chess, but they forgot to check the "show main line" option when they started up the program??  :smile:
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2010-06-11 03:38

> So, what you're saying is that someone solved chess, but they forgot to check the "show main line" option when they started up the program??


I wrote:

"My point is exaggerated yet more understood here."
Parent - By Mark (****) Date 2010-06-11 10:11
I know.  Just my lame attempt at a joke...
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-11 08:32
Having the cluster is like having a really strong opening book for any new position. Every strong player who has tried it was totally blown away! :)

Vas
Parent - By Eckeneckepen (*) Date 2010-06-11 18:45
Ok Youre right.

For opening analysis its better to have a fast pc and the best engine.

If i would analye a opening i would take many pc's and let the engines calculate at different positions, manually taking moves forward, backward .... very dynamical, and i would also play many moves until endgame, just to evaluate a move in the opening.

Very often an engine avoid  a good move just because its 0.01 pawn worse than the mainvariant move ... so its important to take influence with manually making moves.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-10 08:31
Thanks for the comments. The situation with chess engines is pretty unique, I am not sure how well analogies from other fields apply. We will see.

Vas
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2010-06-10 15:28
as long as he makes it feasible, i am fine with renting...i actually like the idea of scaling hardware & no resource time. for example if a package is economically consistent you could allocate 100% of your computers resources to IDeA with R4 & have rental rybka, even on one core if it's strong enough, doing IA.  the problem is i'm not sure how cheap he can make it. since i can rent a 12 core mega-server 24/7 for $600/month i would hope the cost would be significantly less than that. but the only way would be if he is holding back 100+ elo. we don't know that is the case.
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-06-10 17:08
How many people are willing to pay $600,- per month for chess AN??

I guess $9,95 per month would be steep already for most.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2010-06-10 17:39
$9,95 per month would cover less than half of hardware and electricity costs of a single core of a 12 core computer
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-06-10 18:15
May be, but don't underestimate you will be fighting against
perception. Nobody is watching there electricity bill while using a computer.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-11 08:40
We'll have to operate on the premise that customers are enlightened. :smile:

Vas

ps. Finally got the :smile: to work! :grin:
Parent - By staylor (***) Date 2010-06-12 21:42
Not everyone who is enlightened, can afford everything.
And people are more likely to pay for Cluster rental, if they know that you are doing your best for them when they are NOT using cluster but their own Rybka 4 version. If they feel that way, then I believe they would then be much happier to save their special needs for cluster sessions, having convinced themselves that the only thing between what they have and something much better, is the actual hardware of the cluster, and not some trick to induce them to pay out alot of money. No one will blame you for making a cluster rental available, when they see you have done your very best for them besides that.
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2010-06-10 18:36
So we have to pay for minimum 2 computers ?

One to join the a cloud and a single unit in the could.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-11 08:41
The computer which connects to the cloud can be anything.

Vas
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2010-06-11 09:17
What ever it is, it consume electricity also.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-11 09:18
Yes, but much less than a serious computer running Rybka.

Vas
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2010-06-11 09:25
Ok, now I would wish you answer a serious question :

Will there be an access from an iPad ?

regards
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-12 07:37
This will be up to ChessBase and Convekta, I won't work on those tools.

I am quite sure that the answer will be yes, though. This is one of the key features.

Vas
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-06-12 08:32
I can't wait for a playchess client from an iPad.
At the moment I use remote-desktop from the iPad to my home-computer and run playchess from it.
I'm sure they can sell a playchess client on iPad for $10 and reach a very large customer-base they don't have access to today.
And in turn when they allow RaaS through playchess, it's better business for you ;) so if you have a word with them can you give them a hint they should port playchess for the iPad? :)
Parent - By Bouddha (****) Date 2010-06-12 10:32

> I can't wait for a playchess client from an iPad.
>


same here
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-13 10:31
Hopefully these clients will exist for every major platform. There is no reason against it (except time, which I am sure is a not a major issue :smile:).

Vas
Parent - - By Axel Caro (**) Date 2010-06-12 14:27
Hi Vas,

since Android seems to be the fastest growing (mobile) operating system and mobile access to such a sophisticated system would be great, will there also be chances to use remote rybka with mobiles? (e.g. my next gadget, the Samsung Galaxy S http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i9000_galaxy_s-review-478.php)

Regards
Axel
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-13 10:32
Hopefully. It depends on ChessBase and Convekta preparing a client for that platform.

Vas
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2010-06-14 08:18
By the way Tord mentioned that he will have a client based setup in his fantastic free Glaurung for iPhone.  I guess the port to iPad would be simple (probably only graphics mod).  In his setup you would have remote access to your home computer and thus your iPhone or iPad would have access to your biggest hardware at home.  It was actually one of the things that I mentioned to him would be a "killer application" and to be honest I was quite surprised when he mentioned that this was already being developed.  The weakness of the iPhone or iPad for chess analysis will always be the limited hardware strength and of course the quick draining of the battery for such a CPU intensive application.  With a client you have minimal battery drain ... just I/O and Wifi or 3G connectivity.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2010-06-15 05:59
Great!

Vas
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2010-06-10 19:10

> $9,95 per month would cover less than half of hardware and electricity costs of a single core of a 12 core computer


False. Actually it would cover significantly more. A 8 core cpu uses about 130watts. Electricity costs about $.12 per kilowatt hr. Assuming one runs their cpu for 4hr a day on average then the cost would be about $1.87 per month. And this is with 8 cores (not 1).
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2010-06-10 19:28
I wrote about electricity and hardware costs. Electricity here in Germany costs ~ € 0.24 per KWh. You can't build a 12 core computer using 8 core CPUs. And I wouldn't use AMD CPUs for chess right now. Btw. CPUs don't run without mainboard, PSU, RAM ... And we are talking about 24/7 usage. So your calculation is simply silly.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Vas, why not give us the best Rybka possible?
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