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- - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-29 05:00
Here is a few questions that I have after a few days of use....

#1) I have Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit OS and am unable to complete the instructions for enabling "Large pages" because I don't have access to the "Local Group Policy Editor". Supposedly if I upgrade to Windows 7 Professional($69) or Windows 7 Ultimate($120) I will be able to use the group policy editor and therefore enable the use of "Large Pages". My question is before I spend $69 on an OS upgrade is there any possible way of using "Large pages'' without "Locking pages in memory"? Obviously this is a "WTF" question since "Large pages" was called a "new feature" during the beta-testing causing some to be more interested in buying Rybka 4(because of the so called 15% speed-up that was advertised).

#2) I decided to test out the new Rybka 4 by using it for analysis in some of my current correspondence games. Over the last two days I have been encountering a very annoying habit that Rybka 4 shares with Rybka 3(but worse). When I run infinite analysis the engine zips to a certain depth like 18-20 then stalls for hours on end before advancing to the next depth. This bad habit happens when I use the default settings and when I enable "Always score main move" and "Display upperbounds". It makes Rybka 4 almost impossible to use for analysis because it stalls at depth 18 whereas Stockfish or something better gets to depth 30 by the time Rybka 4 goes from 18-19. I guess this really isn't a question but a big "gripe/complaint".

Because of these two problems that I have encountered so far I would advise nobody who uses Windows 7 Home Premium/Starter 64bit to buy this engine if you plan to use it for deep analysis/correspondence chess until the problem is solved. For use on playchess playing blitz games and making "playchess" books this engine's 60-80 elo improvement is probably worth the money it costs.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 05:17
#1) Probably the easiest OS to use huge (intel) or large (ms) pages with is XP64. All you have to do is start your gui and engine right after booting up. So if you used to use this, you might consider downgrading to it. I've been using huge pages with all my other engines for years now using a third party memory controller (7-max). This program has a memory defragmentation built into it, which should be added to R4 so that you don't have to reboot so often.

#2) If you use sampled search, you will see what it is stalling on and you can check it out manually. Not a complete solution for sure, but better than just staring at the screen.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-29 07:43
My previous OS was Vista x64 and I'm not going back to that. As far as number 2 is concerned I am having a bigger problem then I described. I have sent screen shots for Vytron to look at but basically here is the run down......

I begin to analyze a position with infinite analysis, I move up and down the lines while also switching from single to multi-pv. When I return to the root position the engine acts like it never did any of the work I just put it through and starts from scratch until about depth 18 and then it locks up and the kn/s count starts rising infinitely. The kn/s are normally about 350-400kn/s in the average middlegame and after about 2 hours of stalling on the same move the reported kn/s has risen to over 900. If I hit the stop button and then the go button the engine spits out a different line at a much higher depth but then stalls on that too. This is really weird stuff....
Parent - - By irulats (****) [ie] Date 2010-05-29 08:25
Can you post a position for me to test on my setup?
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-29 20:18
OK, It's black to move. Black is in a favorable position but that isn't the issue. Start by using infinite analysis at the root position. When Rybka 4 starts to suggest Bc5 make it look at Ka8, after a minute or so of looking at Ka8 back up to the root and switch to multi-pv2. If multi-pv works fine go back to single pv and test there. You should be getting about depth 20 if it works on your system. The reason I came across this problem is because I was trying to force Rybka to look at both Bc5 and Ka8 on PV-2.

1kqr1b1r/p2b2p1/Pp3p2/3pnP1p/3Np2B/1RP1P1P1/2P2QBP/R6K b - - 0 26
Parent - - By bnc (***) Date 2010-05-29 21:13
I was able to reproduce this behavior on my system. When I switched back to the root and then to multi-pv2, Deep Rybka 4 appeared to stall. All 4 Rybka processes running at 100% which is normal. No changes in the engine window except the kn/s counter gradually increases from 450 kn/s to around 700 kn/s. Nothing changes in the sampled search window or the pv line display. I let in run for over 15 minutes in the stalled state.

My setup:
Windows 7 Pro x64
Intel I7-920 quad with 6gb RAM
Chessbase 12 GUI
Deep Rybka 4 SSE42 x64 with default options
Hash 1gb
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2010-05-30 00:12
Sounds like it's stuck in an infinite loop or something??
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [pl] Date 2010-06-04 14:36
I am aware of this issue now and will look into it.

Vas
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2010-05-30 10:29
I reproduced what you said on my laptop C2D with XP 32-bit and R4 appears to stall after going to 2 PV mode. Node count got up for a minute or so, now is going up and down, but generaly staying some 50-70% than normal. Still slightly going up now 4 minutes no change in SS window no nothing. Both processes on 100% (50% that is).
Parent - - By irulats (****) [ie] Date 2010-05-30 17:33

> When Rybka 4 starts to suggest Bc5 make it look at Ka8


I've had it running now on this position over 3.5 hours. I'm using Aquarium 4. There seems to be no movement for over 2 hours and I haven't got past Bd6. Kn/s are frozen. Weird!
Parent - - By irulats (****) [ie] Date 2010-05-30 17:35
Screenshot: The attach button is missing....
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2010-05-30 19:22
An oversight. I have enabled it now.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2010-05-30 19:59
Could you do the same for Drama Llama?

I wonder what happens when a post with an attachment gets moved there...
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2010-05-30 20:22
Done.
Parent - By irulats (****) [ie] Date 2010-05-30 21:09
Thank you.
Parent - - By irulats (****) [ie] Date 2010-05-30 21:15
Actually, a few minutes after my post, it jumped to d21 and now after 7 hours it's at d22. I'm not sure I have a problem. I can't replicate because it's not showing Bc5. :(
Parent - - By irulats (****) [ie] Date 2010-05-31 06:47
It eventually got to Bc5 after 7 hours so I forced Ka8 and went back a move. R4 forgot everything after move 19 but worse, wouldn't allow me to chenge it to MV. Now when I force Bc5 it's still evaluaing Bd6 so something is broken... :(
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-06-01 02:39
Yes it is broken but Vas apparently has called this "normal" behavior". People who haven't bought Rybka 4, DON'T BOTHER IT'S BROKE.
Parent - - By Tomas 667 (*) [us] Date 2010-05-29 12:21
I'm more of a computer novice,but I have a question for you or anybody....
I have an HP quadcore AMD Phenom X4 9750 system.Came with Windows Vista Home premium 64 bit which I still use with Ryb3 and have no problems(that I can observe anyway).I use IA as well as play coresp games using time settings.
Bob,can I expect some kind of problems like you have encountered if/when I purchase and start using Ryb4?Must I also fool around with this page stuff you are writing about?I have no idea about these page problems being a novice.Perhaps it will not be necessary to do anything with my setup?Yes,no?
Parent - - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2010-05-29 13:24
I've decided to wait before even trying the large page stuff.  It's not really worth the trouble at this point for an extra 10 or 15 % speed increase.
Parent - - By Tomas 667 (*) [us] Date 2010-05-29 14:22
I'm just wondering more if I have to do anything at all.I do not care about the increased speed ect.I have a quad and will buy Deep Ryb4,so I don't think speed is an issue with my setup.But there was "problems" above as mentioned in this thread regarding pg loading ect or the need to do certain things.If I do nothing,will I have a problem of anykind with this new Ryb4,i'm wondering?Again i'm on vista home premium.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2010-05-29 14:24
Apsolutely no problem, as long as you don't try anything with large pages. Although, a simple 2-step operation and if you're lucky could get you cool 15% more, but, feel free to disregard it.
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2010-05-29 14:28
Here, follow this for a while, you'll see it's simple and see for yourself what you might gain with just a little effort:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=250863;hl=
Parent - - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2010-05-29 15:10
Good to hear.  I probably will give it a try after awhile, but figured there's really no hurry.
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) [us] Date 2010-05-29 23:03
the setup is absolutely painless; it took me a couple minutes, three with the reboot. it's training yourself to never unload the engine once large pages are enabled that's the chore, as once you do you'll likely to have to reboot to get the option back. however, you can still load & unload various other engines, & stop & start LP rybka as you please -- you just can't close it completely. you -also- can't change hash or any settings once you've kicked it in, as this restarts the engine entirely.

so maybe all that sounds painful, but consider this -- i hadn't done the maths, but while 15% doesn't sound like much at all, kullberg pointed out it's like overclocking a 3ghz chip to 3.45 ghz. since i have a 3ghz computer & i've never messed about w/ overclocking that sounded pretty cool to me...all in all i've come pretty much all the way round to large pages within 24 hours. not a huge deal, i agree, but since it's there you might as well get the most of it if you can.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2010-05-29 23:30
Well, that does sound pretty good!  I probably only reboot once a month and never shut Aquarium down when the computer is running, so that would help.  Thanks for the info.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2010-05-29 15:18

> .If I do nothing,will I have a problem of anykind with this new Ryb4,i'm wondering?


No problem at all. I haven't tried it as well. I wonder if I will ever try it. :)
Parent - - By abc123 [lt] Date 2010-05-29 09:50
Is that really so simple on XP64? I start engine right after booting up and I see something like {Large pages not used - CreateFileMapping returned () invalid handle..}
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 22:37
I will do it and post the log in a few minutes...
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 22:46
4 processors, x64 3604 MHz
           Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad  CPU   Q9550  @ 2.83GHz, EM64T Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 7, GenuineIntel, level 6, revision 0x1707
           4094 mb RAM, 1642 mb available, page size = 4096
                Windows Server '03 x64
                Process priority: NORMAL_PRIORITY_CLASS
          
                Hash size set to 2048 mb
                Nalimov path set to C:\autoTB\TB4;C:\autoTB\TB5;C:\autoTB\TB6
                Nalimov usage set to never
               Child Process Priority set to Normal
               Always Score Main Move set to true
               Use Large Pages set to true
               Using large pages.

The key is to generate a copy of the engine with large pages set, so that you don't have to unload it and turn on hard pages and reload it. You also need to make sure that you don't have lots of other things running on your computer (look at task manager for this). If you do these two things, you should have enough non-fragmented space to put a 2GB hash into 4GB of memory, like I did a couple of minutes ago.
Parent - - By bnc (***) Date 2010-05-29 22:56

> Nalimov usage set to never


Thanks for posting your log and setup :)

If you enable Nalimov usage can you still get the Large Page option to work ?
How many gb of 6man Nalimov are in your config ?
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 23:52
Good question. I have 400 GB of Namilov, but only use them when I need them. I'll try this and post it here in the next 24 hours. I'm not sure it will work (at least if you set it to load during startup). Will have to try it and see...
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 11:21
Alan, I'm looking for the best windows version for 64bit.  I'm up grading from a full windows 98 disc, upgraded to  Windows xp 32 bit , so I'm out of the loop for an upgrade to Windows 7. I thought Windows Xp pro had some unresolved  security issues, or is it Window 7  Ultimate's xp mode that has the problem?
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2010-05-29 11:38

> Alan, I'm looking for the best windows version for 64bit.  I'm up grading from a full windows 98 disc, upgraded to  Windows xp 32 bit , so I'm out of the loop for an upgrade to Windows 7. I thought Windows Xp pro had some unresolved  security issues, or is it Window 7  Ultimate's xp mode that has the problem?


Ok, I'm not Alan, but jus go for Windows 7 Robert, it is quite good.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 12:17
Thanks IG! I finally found a site that actually tells you that fact. But here is my concern- I wonder if any of my old software from ChessOkey-dokey will still work? I'll find out!!!
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2010-05-29 12:30 Edited 2010-05-29 12:34

> I wonder if any of my old software from ChessOkey-dokey will still work? I'll find out!!!


I won't guarantee that :). Maybe it will run in the XP mode (which I don't like much :)).
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 12:34
What about this issue with "large Pages"? Are you experiencing any problems with that?
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2010-05-29 12:34

> What about this issue with "large Pages"? Are you experiencing any problems with that?


I haven't tried that yet, I've got Large Pageophobia :)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 22:35
Security is certainly better with Windows 7, but the lack of security makes XP64 much easier to use for huge pages. In fact, with third party software, you can run all of your non-Rybka engines on huge pages too, and get a comparable speedup for them too. The other reason I mentioned it to you is that you seem to be on a tight budget, and should be able to get a copy of XP64 that someone no longer wants, rather than buying Windows 7. Please note that I am not the only one using this. Lukas mentioned that he is using it too on his gaggle of computers.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 23:01
Actually Xp 64 was my first choice when I started looking for a 64bit OS. One other question I have- is Microsoft going to stop writing security updates on Xp64?
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-29 23:53
Yes, I don't remember when. I think in the next year or two...
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-29 07:03
As Alan said, if you have a XP64bit disk around, you can downgrade for free.

> Because of these two problems that I have encountered so far I would advise nobody who uses Windows 7 Home Premium/Starter 64bit to buy this engine if you plan to use it for deep analysis/correspondence chess


The first problem costs only about 15 elo, so I don't think the disadvantage is that big (e.g. if Vas didn't add the feature, would you also be giving advice about not buying the engine?)

As for the second problem, just, force the move, let it reach a relative higher depth, and come back to the root, new amazing hash management should make Rybka reach the new depth in minutes instead of hours.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-29 07:22
I've found a bigger problem. I am sending you the details, I want to make sure this isn't just a failure with my system and not the Rybka engine.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-29 08:07
Never seen such cases on my system, I suggested to try an GUI without Sampled Search as that's a main difference.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2010-05-29 08:28
I would like to see it too, if possible, as I also use R4 only for infinite. I've never had any of the problems described here.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-29 20:25
Ok, I posted it above. I was initially using Display upperbounds and always score main move. With Default settings it is stalling too.
Parent - - By bballplayer (**) [us] Date 2010-05-29 20:32
Bobby, its not just you.  I have noticed the exact problem that you are referring to.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-30 08:31
The count is now up to 4 people...

Bobby C (CB11 GUI)
bnc (CB12 GUI)
bballplayer
yanquis1972 (CB10 GUI)

I am starting to think it is a problem with multi-pv because I don't get any stalls at all until I start switching between pv's. I am also starting to think this is a CB GUI problem only but I am having a friend test this on some other GUI's that I don't have.
Parent - By bballplayer (**) [us] Date 2010-05-30 16:10
Bobby,  I am also running in chessbase (although the fritz 12 gui)
Parent - - By pokerpawn (***) [be] Date 2010-05-30 00:02
I was just testing this (as I have windows 7 premium X64)
and i get to depth 21 when on pv 1 quite easy then tried pv 2 and it slowly went back up , starting 15 or 16 ....
then back to 1pv again , and I got to 19 in 45 sec then took 3.5min to reach d20 so I don't know if this is long or not ? maybe that is a normal value ?
then after that almost 7 minutes to go from d20 to 21 ... so no idea if this is normal or if in your case it takes much longer?
Core I5 750 Quad 2.67Ghz
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