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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / omprakash Vs. Vytron (Muzio Gambit (AN) 6...Qf6 Challenge)
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- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-23 17:26
Muzio Gambit A Variation, part N (Leet for IV, that's 4 in roman numerals)

Results of previous games:

Part I - White wins.

Part II - Black wins.

Part III - Draw.

Part N - Recursion!

What will happen now?

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6

rnb1kbnr/pppp1p1p/5q2/8/2B1Pp2/5Q2/PPPP2PP/RNB2RK1 w kq -
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-24 04:22
rnb1kbnr/pppp1p1p/5q2/4P3/2B2p2/5Q2/PPPP2PP/RNB2RK1 b kq -

7.e5
by this move i am experimenting a new line lets see. I have never loss this from white in OTB. Lets see what happens.
I want to play another as black also.
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-24 21:45
Way to get me out of my preparation!

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5

rnb1kbnr/pppp1p1p/8/4q3/2B2p2/5Q2/PPPP2PP/RNB2RK1 w kq -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-25 04:59
Yes!!!!
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-26 04:54
8.Bxf7+!!!!
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-26 04:56
I have made the move.Are you surprised?. Don't care if i loose :-)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-26 17:46

> Are you surprised?


No, I'm disconcerted, I'd be surprised if you manage to draw this, astonished if you beat me in this line.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7

rnb2bnr/pppp1k1p/8/4q3/5p2/5Q2/PPPP2PP/RNB2RK1 w - -
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-27 03:11
9.d4!!
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-27 23:37
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-28 00:05
So you did not play 9.Qd4 . nice
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-05-28 01:11
rnb2bnr/pppp1k1p/8/5q2/3P1B2/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 b - -

10.Bf4!!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-29 07:50
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-06-03 03:44
rnb2b1r/pppp1k1p/5n2/5q2/3P1B2/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w - -

Sorry i will take some time Vytron as i was not expecting Qf5 from you. Need time for analysis. Sorry.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-03 05:42
Ah HA! So you will actually try to draw this :)

At first I was really mad since I thought you were letting me win, now I see these WTF sacrifices are actually playable and black has to be very careful. The engines greatly overestimate black, let's see how it goes.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-06-03 06:59
yes engines as well as humans under estimate it. American Corr player J Yoos is One of the exponent of these lines. I will try to win definitely if not(if you are too clever for me )then i will try for draw.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-07-13 01:16
I'm sorry for what happened to you, I'd like to offer you a draw on this game so you can focus on what really matters.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-07-13 04:40
I will continue this. Please wait a while. Its draw at rare cases in Correspondence.lets see.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-07-13 05:33
Of course take all the time that you need, specially now!
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-07-13 15:15
Thank you.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-04 05:54
Thanks for the patience Vytron . So lets Start and lets have fun.
rnb2b1r/pppp1k1p/5n2/4Bq2/3P4/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 b - -

11.Be5
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-04 19:36
Welcome back omprakash! The long awaited continuation of the game is finally here. This has been the deepest game I've ever analyzed, I've been going 20 moves down the lines and then some, making sure the position is won at all times, let's see if I have success.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3

rnb2b1r/pppp1k1p/5n2/4B3/3P4/5q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-04 20:28
12 Rf3
rnb2b1r/pppp1k1p/5n2/4B3/3P4/5R2/PPP3PP/RN4K1 b - -
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-04 23:38
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7

rnb4r/pppp1kbp/5n2/4B3/3P4/5R2/PPP3PP/RN4K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-05 01:35
13.Nc3
rnb4r/pppp1kbp/5n2/4B3/3P4/2N2R2/PPP3PP/R5K1 b - -
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-05 19:49
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7 13. Nc3 d6
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-06 11:52
rnb4r/ppp2kbp/3p1B2/8/3P4/2N2R2/PPP3PP/R5K1 b - -

14.Bxf6
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-06 17:03
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6

rnb4r/ppp2k1p/3p1b2/8/3P4/2N2R2/PPP3PP/R5K1 w - -
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-11 02:46
15.Raf1
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-11 05:02
Reply below.
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-11 05:02
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Raf1 Nd7
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-11 13:17
Reply Below.
- By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-11 13:17
r1b4r/pppn1k1p/3p1b2/3N4/3P4/5R2/PPP3PP/5RK1 b - -

16.Nd5
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-12 01:22
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Raf1 Nd7 16. Nd5 Re8

r1b1r3/pppn1k1p/3p1b2/3N4/3P4/5R2/PPP3PP/5RK1 w - -
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-15 16:19
I was not expecting this move from you.
- - By Chaotic Chess (****) Date 2010-09-15 20:59
This game is amazing.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-15 21:29
The thing you should know about this game is that it was a challenge game. It was played out to play this opening. I have the feeling that not many would try this in a real corr game.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-15 21:56
We agreed to play from this position:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6

However, I think omprakash added extra spice to the game, disconcerting me as much as playing the Muzio in a normal game, he like, played the Muzio of the Muzio :yell:

I actually don't know if Re8 is the best move, but from the distance it was the first move I considered and couldn't find a defense from white (i.e. I think it wins), let's see what happens, but I suspect the second piece sacrifice loses by force.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-17 07:48
Ya vytron it wins and Ke8 also wins. But later i found it was a better option. I have to ask. What is your analysis method ?. I used Idea in many games. But after talking to Jiri I found that IDeA is loss of cpu time. He always uses DPA in his Corr game and in analysis and that too in fritz GUI due to the branching factor . IDeA is good for opening Ideas and Analysis. I have to find good way of analysis. As eros used infinite analysis and he is pretty good and I AM CONFUSED.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-17 09:12 Edited 2010-09-17 09:14

> Ya vytron it wins and Ke8 also wins.


Oh boy omprakash! Are you resigning the game? :eek:

> What is your analysis method ?.


I had to analyze this game very differently than my other games, as I had to assume that the game was won, and go from that point, I only analyze like this when I'm think I'm winning the game, and those are very rare cases (usually I'm not sure I'm winning even when I'm winning, since the opponent doesn't resign I use a different analysis method that focuses on trying to find that "magic defense" that the opponent must be seeing that draws, if such defense doesn't exist, then I'm sure I'm winning and I switch analysis method).

In this game I did the following:

1 - Play from book (analysis from previous Muzio Gambit games)
2 - Then you shocked me with a move, so I did generic analysis (all purpose, no specialized)
3 - After it was evident the evaluations were going upwards, I used an analysis method that focused on finding what engine understood better the position, the engine that would suggest the moves that would make other engines' evaluations fall the fastest would be it.
4 - With the engine that I found at 3, I made "squeeze" analysis, that's just analyzing the variations backwards and forwards finding refutations until the evaluation raised to some point, just squeezing centi-pawns from the positions.
5 - Then came your very long absence, and when you went back I went with some 2 layer analysis:

a) Layer 1 : "Ping Pong" analysis, where I used the engine at 3 for the black side, and another engine (the one that was the most optimistic about white's chances) for the white side, just more squeezing,  but with specialized engines for the sides (terrible analysis method for normal games, excellent for finding new defending ideas that the winning engine gives up and doesn't consider.)

b) Layer 2: "Long range" analysis, this one uses the same engine but at depth handicap, that's first finding a plan that would win if you played low depth moves, then seeing if the same plan would work if you played high depth moves AND I played low depth moves. All plans seemed to win no matter what, making me believe that I had a won endgame, so I focused on going deeper instead of finding better alternative moves from the black side.

And that was it, I actually believed this game was going to be much longer and wasted a lot of time analyzing, since I found 16...Re8 was winning since the generic analysis!

Anyway, one thing I know is that if I told you the details of my analysis methods I'd alias you into something that may be uncomfortable or too complex to do, it would be better if you told me what are you doing and I'd tell you how to "improve"... lol, no idea if I'd be a good teacher! :yell:

I'll just say that I rely on Infinite Analysis and Exclude Moves for everything that I do.

Do you wish to continue the game?
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-09-17 10:26
I can agree with all the points above. I would like to add one thing. I usually like to look at the 3 top moves of each engine I have. You would be surprised what you may miss even looking at short depths. I found one variation in my game against Sekos in the opening that was pretty good. In fact a novelty, I look at 8 different engines at that time. And only one had found the move in the top 3! Unfortunately I had a bindspot in my AN and lost. Which would bring me to my second point you should always look at your AN more than once! No matter what you should check it. Because once a move is made you can't take it back.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-17 11:38
Hey!!. You wrote an essay!!!

>Oh boy omprakash! Are you resigning the game?


Na na. Not so easy. Still Ke8 was a better move than Re8 as i Feel.

>Anyway, one thing I know is that if I told you the details of my analysis methods I'd alias you into something that may be uncomfortable or too complex to do, it would be better if you told me what are you doing and I'd tell you how to "improve"... lol, no idea if I'd be a good teacher!


You did confuse me a lot. But how to do Exclude moves ?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-17 18:42

> Still Ke8 was a better move than Re8 as i Feel.


As I said, I never stopped to look back at black's alternatives, just analyzed Re8 deeper and deeper.

> You did confuse me a lot. But how to do Exclude moves ?


You can't do that with the Fritz GUI, if you use the Aquarium GUI, try asking on the support subforum on how to use Exclude moves, or "searchmoves".

On the Shredder GUI you use "SHIFT + MOVE", and this move would be excluded from analysis, so you can analyze some variation in depth, then go back to the root position and use "SHIFT + MOVE" on the move that you examined, and you can analyze several variations and then go to the root and use shift + move in all of them, the engine will keep telling you which move is the next best. This is like a delayed MultiPV, but each time you do it the analysis becomes faster, unlike MultiPV that slows you down every time you add a move.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-18 00:56
ok.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-18 04:37
Well then, you move! :smile:
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-18 07:23
Tonite.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-18 17:18
r1b1r3/ppNn1k1p/3p1b2/8/3P4/5R2/PPP3PP/5RK1 b - -

17.Nxc7
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-19 00:15
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Raf1 Nd7 16. Nd5 Re8 17. Nxc7 Rb8
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-23 02:16
1rb1N3/pp1n1k1p/3p1b2/8/3P4/5R2/PPP3PP/5RK1 b - -

18.Ne8
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-23 03:42
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Bg7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Raf1 Nd7 16. Nd5 Re8 17. Nxc7 Rb8 18. Nxe8 Kxe8
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2010-09-29 07:30
1rb1k3/pp1n3p/3p1R2/8/3P4/8/PPP3PP/5RK1 b - -

19.Rf6
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / omprakash Vs. Vytron (Muzio Gambit (AN) 6...Qf6 Challenge)
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