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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / If an IM can do this, how about a GM?
- - By SillyFunction (**) [th] Date 2007-07-10 15:09 Edited 2007-07-10 15:14
We all know that the quality of Rybka is significantly owed to quality of the IM programmer. I wonder if any SuperGM is as good in programming as Vas, would there be any SuperRybka?

As far as I know (which may be wrong), Botvinik and Karpov had tried to create the beast of this level but failed. Do any of you know some GMs interested in programming? You know, I used to dream about being a great chess programmer, like Bill Gates used to dream about being a chess world champion at his teen. But I realized that it was impossible, like Bill Gates realized that he should be a programmer/businessman. Programming the best chess engine should be a great victory. You beat the world with your creation! Why should it be so few who try?
Parent - - By bedouin (**) [gb] Date 2007-07-10 15:26
A GM on the chess board is not necessarily a GM in chess programming. Just because Kasparov was good at chess do you think he can get in the boxing ring and do the same? Did Michael Jordan do what he did in basketball in baseball?
Parent - - By Gr00vy (**) [us] Date 2007-07-10 19:24
Especially in the light of Josh Waitzkin's accomplishments this argument makes no sense.   And in Vas's.  There is only one answer to this question that makes any sense at all.  Maybe.
Parent - - By bedouin (**) [gb] Date 2007-07-10 22:12
Josh Waitzkin is not a GM and has not done what Fischer or Kasparov have done in chess so how does he come into the equation?
Parent - By Gr00vy (**) [us] Date 2007-07-11 00:14
Basically your argument has nothing to do with anything.   That was the point.  There is a possibility that a GM knows *more* about chess and could somehow get that *more* into a computer.  Regardless of whether or not Micheal Jordan could play basketball as well as baseball.   And the other point is that you can be world class in multiple different activities. It has been done before.  And it doesn't give any more credence to the original claim, as yours takes away from that claim.  It is especially not clear that you need to be a world class programmer to get your *more* into a computer.

The answer is... Maybe...   And it will likely always be maybe, until yes happens or no is proven. 
Parent - By SillyFunction (**) [th] Date 2007-07-11 00:30
As far as I know, Kasparov knows something about chess programming. He has a number of consultants for this. But he has never tried to contribute his knowledge to computer chess seriously. I mean he has never been a genuine consultant for any chess programmers even if his face and his name appear in several chess software. So forget about trying to create chess software himself.

And yes, I believe that if Kasparov is interested in chess programming, he would be somewhat good at it. He has no reputation about boxing but he's a good football player. He is versatile, you know.
Parent - - By SillyFunction (**) [th] Date 2007-07-11 00:47 Edited 2007-07-11 00:54
To tell the truth, Fritz, Junior, Shredder, Chess Tiger and some others used to interest me a lot. But now Vas himself interestes me. It's the first time I take a look into chess programmer's life. He's the first hero of this field for me. What he's accomplished is a true inspiration. But, well, one day I may have another hero. Vas has his own distinguished personality. And I guess that it takes another distinguished personality in chess world again to have another number one. Now that hero may be a child prodigy or something. Just want to share. I haven't been aware if the one exists already. If someone like Magnus Carlsen is interested in chess programming, I guess there must be another hero in some years ahead for sure.
Parent - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-07-11 08:30
Some of the best chess minds are not necessarily top 10 GM's.  To be a top 10 GM OTB you have to have incredible tactical ability as well as being totally up to date with the latest opening theory and ofcourse having basic good chess technique.  To be a top chess programmer, tactical ability and opening preparation is totally irrelevant and positional understanding and positional intuition of what position is better or worse is much more important.  This is true in all sports as well.  Tiger Woods swing coach doesn't have a better swing than Tiger, but he knows how to analyze a swing and see the strengths and weaknesses ... and works on that.  Vas might not give Kasparov a good match OTB, but he will surely have much better feel of how to translate chess knowledge into 1's and 0's.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-12 07:29
Generally, being stronger at chess would help. Everybody has some strengths and weaknesses, you can never find a completely perfect situation. The ideal would be a Kasparov-level chess player, mathematical genius, trained professionally as a software developer, and willing to devote all of his time to computer chess. Just don't hold your breath :)

Parent - By SillyFunction (**) [th] Date 2007-07-13 05:12

>> The ideal would be a Kasparov-level chess player, mathematical genius, trained professionally as a software developer, and willing to devote all of his time to computer chess. <<

In short, someone has to be a "born-to-be" :-) ur almost the one.
Parent - By garyf919 (**) [us] Date 2007-07-13 14:42
Why not invite Kasparov (or some other top 10 GM) to join your Rybka team
as a consultant? Fee would be to high? Get Intel to sponsor hardware and GM :)
Parent - - By Sesse (****) [no] Date 2007-07-13 15:18
I'm sort of surprised that after Kasparov-level chess player and mathematical genius, you list professional software development training as the key factor. My experience is that those who are good programmers after software-related education were programmers also when they started :-) (Of course, proper education helps; there are a lot of things that are rather hard to teach yourself properly.)

I might be reading too much into it, though.

/* Steinar */
- professionally trained software developer, quite good at maths, but lousy at chess
Parent - By SillyFunction (**) [th] Date 2007-07-14 01:40
My 2 cents, I think that Vas means "not an amatuer" in programming (I consider myself an amatuer even if I graduate in computer.)
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-14 07:24
Actually, I completely agree with this. Coding is 95% innate. You need about 1 to 2 years to get rolling, and the rest is just polish. I'm not sure I'm any better at writing software now than when I was 18.

Parent - - By Dhanish (***) [in] Date 2007-07-14 02:30
If only chess engines were open source, then the improvement could be much faster. Wishful thinking, of course.
Parent - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-07-14 04:41
Fruit is open source and is considered one of the best written most streamlined engines out there.  Every engine out there today has benefitted from it ... commercial or otherwise.
Parent - By SillyFunction (**) [th] Date 2007-07-14 10:37 Edited 2007-07-14 11:03
Unless you could donate $100M, then not enough incentive was there (if you're willing to donate 50 I will pay another 50 :-) ) It's like magic tricks business. You reveal it you can't make a living from it. Let it goes this way. It's beautiful enough.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / If an IM can do this, how about a GM?

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