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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Opening Books / book condition
- - By manos (**) [gr] Date 2010-05-08 08:57
hello to the forum,
after a lot of learning from database, my book (almost 18GB) is in terrible condition. I attach 2 photos of move 1e4.e5  .
tell me what you think please....



Parent - By Mark Mason (***) [gb] Date 2010-05-09 07:50
Manos,

I think maybe it looks messy as you have it sorted by Performance column. Click on the top of the N column where the number is and this will sort the moves into a more sensible and clear order which may help you to see the effects of the learn from database. By the way you have 1.d4 as the only green first move. This means using tournament moves, the engine will always play this. If you want it to play other moves like 1.e4 you need to mark those green by right clicking on the move and selecting main move.

Mark
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-05-09 20:36
It is in very strange condition.  Clearly you have it ordered by the Av (Avg ELO) column, which is unconventional but does not affect play.  More interesting is your assortment of first moves.  Notice over 45,000 h3 moves but only 435 Nc3 moves...that's out of synch.  Ditto for your Nh3 and f3 moves, which are ordinarily the rarest moves in any book, superseded here by Na3.  But biggest of all you have over 21 MILLION 1.e4 moves and over 3 MILLION 1.c4 moves against 204,580 1.d4 moves.  What the...?!

Looks to me that you have to completely consolidate and reorganize your database, eliminate duplicate games, and reload the book from scratch.  Trust me, this is the weirdest .ctg book I have ever seen.
Parent - - By manos (**) [gr] Date 2010-05-10 09:22
Do I need to reset the weights?
all the information will be lost, or do I need to import more games with the missing moves?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-05-10 11:41
No and no.  I am saying you need to erase this book from your hard drive and start all over again.  Obviously you are importing the same games over and over again.  Think about it.  If you add up all the numbers in the N column what do you come up with?  About 30 million, right?  (I haven't added them, but it is a huge number.)  And do you have 30 million unique (i.e. non-duplicate) games in your databases? 

The whole source of your problem is not in the book, it is in the way you manage your databases and how this interplays with how you add games to the book.  Don't worry about the learning.  That's icing on the cake.  You first need to get the cake right.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2010-05-10 12:00

> You first need to get the cake right.


The current cake is a lie?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-05-10 12:14
Cakes don't lie, generally, but they can be deceptive.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-10 13:29


*shot*
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-05-10 14:25
Brilliant.  For those of you who think Vytron is a mad genius and don't get the references, here's a great site that will clear up the "cake is a lie" trope.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the+cake+is+a+lie
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-10 22:53

> For those of you who think Vytron is a mad genius


Also, it's Randall Munroe and his comic xkcd.

Vempele taught me that sometimes posting a xkcd comic is mandatory :)
Parent - - By BrandonSi (***) [us] Date 2010-05-10 13:06
I agree, it's a mess. It could be useful an an analysis tool, but I would not use this in an actual match.

18GB is pretty over-kill. More information is almost always better than less information. However, that assumes the information is well organized, and easily usable. In normal match play, I would imagine you're only using at most, 1%-2% of the information in that book.
Parent - By BigBen (****) Date 2010-05-10 13:22
Hi,
   This has to be the best or should that be worst example of why you should not simply import game databases and learning into an opening book :) unless of course you just simply want the biggest book ... It boggles the mind about thinking how to stop it simply playing down lost lines against half decent books

Regards
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-05-10 14:08
I daresay that in match play most books would use close to 0% of the information.  Think about it: if I stay in book 15 moves that means I saw 30 positions.  Out of how many stored in book?  A very large number.

'Useless information supposed to fire my imagination' is not the problem.  The problem is redundant information.

It appears that our friend has mashed together public books indiscriminately.  Can you imagine?  It's a head-slapper.
Parent - - By BrandonSi (***) [us] Date 2010-05-10 14:19
Yes, you're probably right, closer to 0% than 1% for sure.

I think we should standardize on a few book-development stages for people, in order to identify progress.. (a la 5 stages of grief).

1 - Oh, I can just import games and it's a book?!! This is easy?!

2 - Where can I get MORE GAMES?!

3 - Wait.. Why did my book just stay in-book when I was losing by 3 pawns..

4 - What is this green and red stuff..?

5 - Maybe I need to be more discriminating about the information in my book..
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-05-10 14:24
LOL, perfect.  I am a mutant: at stage five I just said "this book format SUCKS", then had someone else work on that problem, and then regressed back to stage two, where I have stayed for the past almost six years.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-11 05:42

>tell me what you think please....


I think you should have asked for help a very long time ago. This is a disaster on comic proportions.

This reminds me of the time my girl decided to bake me some cupcakes even though she had never made cupcakes before. After reading the directions she got to the part where she was supposed to add eggs but realized she did not have any eggs, she thought about it and decided that the eggs could not be that important and skipped that step. When I took the cupcake wrapper off and tried to eat one they fell apart like sand :)
Parent - By manos (**) [gr] Date 2010-05-11 07:07
now I deleted and started a new one.
I've loaded Hs masterbook.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-11 07:37
Was the sand tasty? :)
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-05-11 07:40
Nope. I used the rest of them as coffee table decorations until they got to old to look good anymore. As long as I kept them in their wrappers they held together and looked like perfectly good cupcakes.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-05-11 07:43
So now I know the recipe for good looking decorative cupcakes ;)
- - By manos (**) [gr] Date 2010-05-11 15:09
thank you for your answers here.
I have some questions about the new book that I use, as i said in a previous post, I loaded HS masterbook 2.0
do you think that I shall not import any other moves (games) ?
if I import new moves do I need to reset the weights ?
moreover will I ruin everything again if I would import 2-3 more books?
Parent - By Moz (****) Date 2010-05-19 05:05

> moreover will I ruin everything again if I would import 2-3 more books?


Probably.  Importing is bad juju.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Opening Books / book condition

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