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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / Why a new GUI for Rybka ??
- - By thierrycatalan (**) [fr] Date 2007-06-28 06:12
A new GUI only for Rybka ??

There is today many GUI, like Chessbase, Shredder, Arena, ChessAssistant, scid, etc etc ....

Fritz 's GUI is for me the best interface in french to play chess , because i can load all my native chessbase engine, all my UCI engine, and some WB engine....and it 's very easy to find all functions .

I use only one GUI to play chess...and i don't need to have an other GUI only for Rybka engine !!

If convekta want a good interface GUI to play with Rybka, why do they don't use the ChessAssistant GUI ?? (like total chess training )...

ChessAssistant 's GUI will be a very nice GUI for Rybka...
Parent - - By Alkelele (****) Date 2007-06-28 13:16

>I use only one GUI to play chess...and i don't need to have an other GUI only for Rybka engine !!


I think the goal is to make you WANT to change from the Fritz GUI to the Rybka GUI :-). Not because you HAVE to, but because you WANT to.
Parent - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2007-06-28 13:51
Yes, you will not have problems in using other GUIs with new versions of Rybka.

But something seems perfect while you don't see more perfect things.

New GUI will not be released while it will not give new quality for most chess players. Open beta testing allows to select and to implement most wanted functions and to do them intuitive in use.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-06-28 14:08
But, as long as you can only use Chessbase engines on the chessbase GUIs, I don't think the Rybka GUI can make CB's obsolete (As in, to make that people don't want to use the CB GUI anymore).

Now, if Rybka becomes the sort of engine that only runs on its GUI, that would be different (But, everyone hates that idea, including me).
Parent - - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-06-28 14:17
Not because you HAVE to, but because you WANT to.

Not because you have to, but because they want you to. Money, money, money ...

Mike
Parent - - By rivaldo (***) [de] Date 2007-06-28 14:28
"Not because you have to, but because they want you to. Money, money, money ..."

what??

you earn money, if you have a good product to sell. the customers buy it, when they want it.

don't you think your offence would be much more appropriate to chessbase who sell larger quantities of their product for higher prices with lower quality and the customers buy every year their new fritz or shredder with more or less identical GUI and merely improved engine for 50€?

you really seem to have a bad day every day.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-06-28 17:06
Sorry, but:

- I do not need more and more different GUIs. If companies think they need that because only with the bundle they can get on the money of the people and a big slice of the market, well, their problem. I have functioning GUIs and just want the engine.

- I do not need one more proprietary new book format coming along with that GUI only being compatible to itself and nothing else.

- I do not need more and more designed and redesigned piece sets and so on.

So the question of the original poster is a valid one.

Mike
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2007-06-28 20:32
You will agree that there are certain things that can be improved in every GUI.
The book format is one thing, commenting moves in the book is a very nice feature in the new GUI, you will like it, too :). If the new format will be open for other GUIs... I don't know.
Piece sets: Yes, there will be some standard piece sets, Convekta isn't focussing on modeling a chess turk in 3d ;)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-06-29 23:14 Edited 2007-06-29 23:16

> commenting moves in the book is a very nice feature in the new GUI


Give me an option to add moves to the book by just moving pieces on the board, to add moves to the book by engine analysis (The moves are added to the book from the PV), to add information about the move (like Engine evaluation's score) manually, to allow color transposition (The position is the same with colors reversed), to allow mirror transposition (The position is the same but mirrored left to right), and I'll be very happy :-D

(Also, information should be "backsolved", meaning, if I'm ordering the moves by Engine evaluation, a new evaluation should update the moves back to the root, and reorder them :) )
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2007-06-30 00:18

> add moves to the book by just moving pieces on the board


> add moves to the book by engine analysis (The moves are added to the book from the PV)


> add information about the move (like Engine evaluation's score) manually


All of this will be possible.

> allow color transposition
>allow mirror transposition


I'm not quite sure what you mean, but you will be able search for mirrored positions and ignore colors in the search.

> Also, information should be "backsolved", meaning, if I'm ordering the moves by Engine evaluation, a new evaluation should update the moves back to the root, and reorder them :-)


You will be able to use the minimax algorithm to compute minimax values for all nodes in a tree.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-06-30 00:38

>> allow color transposition
>>allow mirror transposition


>I'm not quite sure what you mean, but you will be able search for mirrored positions and ignore colors in the search.


Suppose I have a big book for the 1. e4 e5 position, then if 1. e3 e5 2. e4 is played, all the information from e4e5 is displayed, as if color reversal didn't matter.

For the mirror transpositions:

r1b2b1r/1p1p1kpp/1p2p3/4P3/6n1/8/PPPB1PPP/RN2R1K1 b - - 0 12


And:

r1b2b1r/1pk1p1p1/1p1p2p1/3P4/1n6/8/PPP1BPPP/1K1R2NR b - - 0 1


Would "transpose" and all information of the book from one position would work on the other.

As of now, I have to use Chess Assistant for analysis and Bookup for storing the information (It supports all the stuff I've been talking about), so having to use only one GUI would be great :)
Parent - By Alkelele (****) Date 2007-06-30 00:32
Some unofficial feedback from me as beta-tester:

>Give me an option to add moves to the book by just moving pieces on the board


Is in the works, already addressed. A couple of us have also expressed a wish for being able to make a move on the board so that it is added to the tree, but without the position changing (for example, shift is pressed while the move is made).

>to add information about the move (like Engine evaluation's score) manually


Already implemented. Furthermore, you can make text-comments etc. Essentially, you can edit anything in the tree on-the-fly, and you can store a lot of different kinds of information at each move.

>to allow color transposition (The position is the same with colors reversed)


I am not sure, but I would take this as a given.

>(Also, information should be "backsolved", meaning, if I'm ordering the moves by Engine evaluation, a new evaluation should update the moves back to the root, and reorder them  )


I see where you come from. I personally think it is more delightful to think of stuff like this being taken care of by Rybka's persistent hash, but it's still something to consider. I do think that there is one good idea to implement here: That the user with a push of key can add the engine eval to the corresponding column in the tree (this should be possible, there already is a default CAP score column (CAP scores are evaluations from some big analysis project)). Btw, any column can be made invisible so that only those you are interested in are displayed.

> to add moves to the book by engine analysis (The moves are added to the book from the PV)


I don't know if it is exactly the same as what you are thinking of, but I have suggested that the user by pressing 3 will add the first move from the first three PVs (assuming that we are working in multi-pv mode). This could make move adding even MORE fast :-)

Generally, a lot of attention has just been given to the book/tree side of the GUI, and I personally think things look VERY promising :-). So I just wanted to spread some optimism and enthusiasm :-) Perhaps Dadi can post some screen-shots to spread some further excitement and incite feed-back/ideas.
Parent - - By StAhlig (**) [de] Date 2007-06-28 20:53

>I have functioning GUIs and just want the engine.


Well, everyone of us can of course decide freely how to spend his money ...
( It is a free country, isn't it ... ;-) )

I agree that existing GUIs are not bad, however, I would also maintain that quite substantial improvements
are within reach. The new GUI will be a success if it provides unique and convincing features that appeal to
many chess players. 
Of course, we are not talking about piece sets here. Nonetheless, these more 'mundane' points must not be neglected.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-06-29 03:55
If there was at least a choice between the full package and the engine alone ... Also, developing and programming is a slow and painstakingly effort and I wonder how people can come to the conclusion that a newcomer can provide all these things, somehat bug free withing the first releases while all other had to come a long way ...

Mike
Parent - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2007-07-02 10:46
There are no plans for excluding pure UCI engine product for Rybka 3.0, i.e. it will be possible to buy Rybka without GUI.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / Why a new GUI for Rybka ??

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