Not logged inRybka Chess Community Forum
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Komodo - Rybka in Danger? ↺
1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next  
- - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-21 16:46 Edited 2010-01-24 17:15
Komodo 1.0, a new much-improved version of Doch, is being released today. Our testing indicates that it is at least on the same level with Deep Shredder 12, Naum 4, and Rybka 2.3.2a, all on one core. So Rybka 3 is not really in danger (I couldn't resist the headline), but we may have passed all previous Rybka versions. Komodo is free, but a future MP version will probably not be free.

Source:

http://homepages.tesco.net/henry.ablett/jims.html
Attachment: komodo10-ja.zip (974k)
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [gb] Date 2010-01-21 16:53
Komodo, as in the dragon?

What prompted you to settle for that name? I like it! Much better than Mr. Bubbles or whatever Don was thinking of...
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-21 17:11
Yes, the dragon. It suggests a fearsome program, and of course there is also the chess connection of the Dragon Sicilian. I've often used that name myself as a handle on the internet, for example I play on the Shogi server by that name.
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2010-01-21 19:19
Hope all this progress made in the last months in others chess programs can encourage Vasik to give us a very strong Rybka 4.

Larry, how much better you expect Rybka 4 will be over Rybka 3?

Regards,
Gaмßito.

PS: I think Komodo is a nice name and better than Doch. :-)
Parent - By rookie (**) [us] Date 2010-01-21 17:38
Yes, it's much better than 'Doch', which just sounds to me like something that is going to lose.
Parent - - By DonDailey (**) [us] Date 2010-01-21 17:39
Komodo the dragon -  but I also like the name "puff" for Puff the magic dragon.
Parent - By Axel Caro (**) Date 2010-01-21 20:58 Edited 2010-01-21 21:23
...and with "Puff" you would have had a nice anthem by the way ;-)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3476801002597020377#docid=-7680627109960272556

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3476801002597020377#docid=-8753828327832894023

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3476801002597020377#

Call it Pumodo!

Best regards
Axel

PS: Congratulations to this big step forward: I wish You and Larry many further fresh and innovative ideas realizing an grandmaster-style engine at top-level!
Parent - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [gb] Date 2010-01-21 21:18
Sounds like a drug fest...if you've seen the film 'Meet the parents' you'll know what I mean!
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-01-21 22:29 Edited 2010-01-21 22:32
Komodo is a great name- Umh! Puff the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee,
Little jackie paper loved that rascal puff,
And brought him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff.
ohPuff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee,
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee.
Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail
Jackie kept a lookout perched on puff’s gigantic tail,
Noble kings and princes would bow whene’er they came,
Pirate ships would lower their flag when puff roared out his name. oh!
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee,
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee.
A dragon lives forever but not so little boys
Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys.
One grey night it happened, jackie paper came no more
And puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar.
His head was bent in sorrow, green scales fell like rain,
Puff no longer went to play along the cherry lane.
Without his life-long friend, puff could not be brave,
So puff that mighty dragon sadly slipped into his cave. oh!
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee,
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee.

Don,

This is much to sad a song for your Dragon to sing!
Parent - - By Akorps (**) [us] Date 2010-01-22 02:57
I have to admit, Komodo is a good name for the new engine.

Since you are also expert in Shogi, any plans to make an engine that will work on variants like Shogi and Crazyhouse?
I never found a Crazyhouse engine I liked yet, so I just rely on my old brain to figure out that variant :-)
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-01-22 03:14
Someone is playing with you-I am still a novice at chess!
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2010-01-22 03:58
So, you have some interesting passions...
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) [us] Date 2010-01-21 17:42
i like! (name & business model)

allowing SP free gives the user a great idea of the engine eval & style, while power users can still pay extra if it meets their approval. i think it's a nice idea.
Parent - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [gb] Date 2010-01-21 23:52

> i like! (name & business model)
>
> allowing SP free gives the user a great idea of the engine eval & style, while power users can still pay extra if it meets their approval. i think it's a nice idea.


Yes simple and good. I hope it doesn't get cloned though.
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) [us] Date 2010-01-21 17:44
LK, your statement is somewhat ambiguous. you explicitly say strength is equivalent to 'deep' shredder 12,  'all' on 1 core.  i hope you can see how i might be confused. (if 1 core komodo = 4CPU DS12, then rybka really is in danger, no?)

either way congratulations & i am looking forward to the new toy.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-01-21 18:01
he says Deep Shredder 12 on 1 core, which is basically Deep Shredder 12 I assume :)
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2010-01-21 18:32

>  which is basically Deep Shredder 12 I assume :-)


No, it suggests Shredder 12 without Deep :)
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-01-21 18:43
ehm yes. that's actually what I intended to write. :)
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-21 18:40
Yes, I mean Deep Shredder 12 on 1 core, which I believe is identical to Shredder 12.
Parent - By Henrik Dinesen (***) [dk] Date 2010-01-21 19:55
Similar to Deep Shredder 12 SP... ;)
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2010-01-21 18:29
Hmmm? Rybka in danger from Larry?  Nice one GM Kaufman :-D
Parent - - By Ray (****) Date 2010-01-21 19:22
Does it play chess960 ?  :-)
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-21 19:51
No variants yet, but actually there is a likelihood of an S-Chess version (that's Seirawan's variant with hawk and elephant added on a standard 8x8 board) in the near future. Of course Chess960 would be easier, but right now there is an interest in an S-Chess version.
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) [us] Date 2010-01-22 00:08
larry, assuming you are not being an awful tease, i am planning on doing a 40/120 game against my other favorite new toy tonight. is there any particular opening or opening position you'd like me to start from? (there is of course the obvious ;))
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-22 02:18
I don't have any real data on which openings Komodo plays better or worse than other engines. Probably we won't do as well in any that require lots of specific knowledge, because the program is young and so far doesn't have a lot of detailed knowledge, but it does have most of what's important in general.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2010-01-22 02:22
i will open new thread on computer chess forum on my testing.
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) [gb] Date 2010-01-22 09:39
What would be great is if someone could put together an opening book for Komodo and then you could implant it into it as a UCI opening book a la Hiarcs. That way all people would be happy: CEGT testers and those that use general opening book and testers that like to use the programs' own book.

What do you think?
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-22 14:19
I just started using Komodo in Aquarium to try to generate an opening book. Eventually maybe we could perhaps do something like this.
Parent - - By Brettangst (**) [de] Date 2010-01-24 20:48
How is the playing style of Komodo 1.0 JA compared with Rybka3 or Naum 4?
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-25 00:12
Probably it's most similar to Rybka Dynamic without the Exchange sacs, but in general the goal is to make it play more like a human GM than other programs. But we're in the early stages, I'm not saying we are anywhere near that goal yet.
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-01-25 10:18
did you get any response to your call to submit personality files?

it is an interesting feature but quite difficult/time consuming to implement and test since there are so many parameters that can change simultaniously.

i expect if people put time and effort in it and find a stronger setting they may be inclined to keep it to themselves ;)

this would add another dimension to computer chess in the future!

any news on the website / mp release date?
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-25 15:01
We only got a couple files submitted, nothing very interesting. However I used the personality feature myself rather than having to depend on Don to make every experimental change, and the result is the improved eval in Komodo! We did secure a website, but I don't know if Don will work on that or MP first. I suppose MP will be in a couple months, but timing depends on one or two other factors.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-01-25 16:19
How do you create/edit Komodo personalities?
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-25 16:22
There should be a "read me" file that explains all this. Is it missing?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-01-25 16:41
Oh, I just looked at the folder where the engine resides and there was only a per file, but when going one folder up there's the readme, thanks.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-01-25 23:01
From the readme:

"[the sample personality file] has reasonable default values but not the current defaults used in Komodo."

This I didn't expect, why are the default values kept secret? For finding optimal value of parameters it's necessary to know which are the ones that currently work best, for example, imagine that I spend some time tuning the luft parameter and find that (after taking other potentially correlated parameters in consideration) the optimal value is 112, however, it turns out that the defaults already use 112, so all my time was wasted.

It doesn't encourage the user to search for better parameters, since one knows that time will be lost having to reach the strength of the defaults first.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-26 05:48
They are the values that were deemed best when the readme file was made, so they are reasonably good values. We don't want to keep updating this file with each release, as once we do a lot of serious work on the eval someone might want to copy our weights in another program. As of now, only a few of the weights have changed, primarily the piece values.
Parent - - By Prima (****) Date 2010-01-22 01:17 Edited 2010-01-25 17:33
[deleted]
Parent - - By BB (****) [au] Date 2010-01-22 01:24

>What are the incentives for people to buy Komodo-mp?


In general, there's always the "Haha, I can afford to buy stuff I don't need" angle -- also known as conspicuous consumption. :)
For Komodo, though, it has "personalities" and some other features beyond just strength.
Parent - By Prima (****) Date 2010-01-22 05:44

> For Komodo, though, it has "personalities" and some other features beyond just strength.


I doubt the personality-feature is sufficient enough as an incentive I inquired about Komodo. Basically, most engines are capable of exhibiting different & desired personalities via engine-parameter configuration. Examples of such personality-capable engines are StockFish, Deep Shredder, Toga & Deep Togas and variants, HIARCS, etc.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2010-01-22 02:30
Certainly some people want to own more than one top engine, either to watch them play or to get more than one opinion about positions or games. In my opinion the evaluation of RL and R3 are not sufficiently different to serve this purpose, so this means that a Rybka owner needs at least one more program. I must admit that as of now Stockfish is still (probably) stronger than Komodo, but that might no longer be true by the time we have an MP version. Even if it is true, in my opinion Stockfish does not produce evaluations that are believable/useful to a human player, at least as compared to Rybka, Naum 4, and Deep Shredder 12. For reasons that I don't fully understand, it seems that optimizing evaluation for best results in bullet play tends to lead to evaluations in normal openings that are completely out of line with the results of human grandmasters playing those positions. I'm not saying that Komodo is free of this problem, but I think it suffers from it less than Stockfish, Fritz 12, and certain other engines, and I expect the evaluation to continue to move towards that of human GMs. Stockfish is a great program, but we have our advantages too.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2010-01-22 02:48
great sales pitch Larry.i will buy it.
Parent - By herakleitos (***) Date 2010-01-22 03:01 Edited 2010-01-22 03:30
Well, my (clear) first impression of Komodo, after my first two hours of analysis with it, is that its evals are very sensible. It's been closely (and rather quickly) retracing the painstaking analyses I've done with Rybka 3, and it doesn't give me the artifically high evaluations of Stockfish (reminiscent of the old Shredder versions). If Komodo progresses as I think it will, and at some point supports endgame tablebases, I'll be a customer.

One engine, even one as strong as Rybka, is never enough to feel confident about a position evaluation. Quite right.
Parent - - By Prima (****) Date 2010-01-22 05:32 Edited 2010-01-25 17:33

> it seems that optimizing evaluation for best results in bullet play tends to lead to evaluations in normal openings that are completely out of line with the results of human grandmasters playing those positions. I'm not saying that Komodo is free of this problem, but I think it suffers from it less than Stockfish,


In fact, Marco Costalba and Tord Romstad did acknowledge the 1+1' (1/1) timer game-testings used in StockFish 1.6s optimization does not necessarily address evaluations expected in LTC games. Definitely this poses a problem in the long run. I believe the entire StockFish team are working on these evaluations with regards to normal openings. It is highly probable that the next two  (or three) future versions of StockFish to be released will not only address these evaluation area but will overtake R3 in strength and evaluations.
Parent - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2010-01-22 11:18
It is also possible that the next mp version of Komodo is going to overtake R3 in strength and evaluation.
I see no reason to assume that the free version of stockfish is going to be stronger.

Uri
Parent - By djbl (**) [gb] Date 2010-01-22 15:03
'in my opinion the evaluation of RL and R3 are not sufficiently different to serve this purpose'

being that you are on close (or closer thasn most of us) terms to vas it seems strange to me that you are making a distinction between the thing and r3, is there something we should know??
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-01-25 10:23
i fully agree; from my first experience Komodo has a style of its own and suggests sensible moves.

will be happy to buy the mp version!
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-01-22 13:21

> What are the incentives for people to buy Komodo-mp?


The same as for people to buy Hiarcs, Shredder, Naum... Specially if Komodo is stronger than them.
Parent - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2010-01-22 02:15
I have to hand it to you, this is a very strong engine.  Although I only tested a few set of positions, I think it will be much stronger than +40 ELO over previous version.
Parent - - By notyetagm (**) [us] Date 2010-01-22 02:21
Congratulation. Great work.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Komodo - Rybka in Danger? ↺
1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next  

Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill