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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Ultra-d was not a suj clone
- - By David Evans (****) Date 2007-06-25 21:36
Hello chess friends i played ultra-d in the freestyle final in centaur mode on the first day with my team of two players did ok even with poor hardware of quad and duel core not enough it seemed to match the rest of the players who had 8 ways and above.

I tryed my best on the first day but on day two i lost the other member of my team due to personal reasons and then did mouse slip in game with mission control this is when suj sent me a tell asking was i ok i explained i was struggling due to a loss of this game and a member of my team he offered a use of one of his machines via remote to help me out which i gladly took.

At no point during final was he a member of my team day two and three i was alone used my own opening book in engine mode could not centaur any more due to loss of team member and lack of a IM or GM to help me out.

So anybody who says mission and ultra was same team was mistaken suj was just kind enough to lend my a better machine for some games.

I felt given the loss of a team member and my poor old quad i was proud to make the final and hope to get there again but this time with updated hardware and more help.

i could even  have improved in my 1st game v vas with knight into g4 would stood me in beeter stead in this game but i only saw after i played 0-0.

So there u go folks thought i would post here to clear any rubbish written about me i stood alone in final and tryed my best but it was not good enough but at least i got there fair and square see u guys in the next pal bye

d.evans  Ultra-d
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 22:14
Suj lent you his 32 core machine to play against Cato? Wow, nice guy.

So it seems that using an overclocked quad is now slumming it in freestyle?
Parent - - By David Evans (****) Date 2007-06-25 22:23
Yes i think a quad machine for final just does not cut it as i found out i thanks suj for lending me a machine shame i could not got it from day 1.

There was some great games played and congrats to Vas on wining another freestyle title..

Ultra-d
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2007-06-26 20:00
Could you plese tell me more about that 32 core computer?
Especially what kind of processors were used?
I thought, there were only 16 cores possible on a computer running with windows (8xOpteron dual core).
But i must confess, i don´t know much about Intel Netburst muliti processor computers. They just weren´t effective in playing chess - and they were far to expensive for me.
Or has he got engineering samples of the new AMD quad cores?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 02:30
Suj had more than one 32-core machine.  How's that for an embarrassment of riches?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 03:49
Surely you jest? And I am still using my trusty abacus...
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 04:04
He had 2x 32-cores and 5x 16-cores, I believe.  No joke.  But I am quite sure this will be left in the dust next tournament when Flyingfatman and his nefarious gang of chess hooligans come in with the hardware equivalent of Deep Blue--on a prototype Rybka 3.0 platform.  It's gonna be ugly.  But we'll draw black against them as usual and we'll manage yet another exciting, ulcer-inducing draw from a sure-thing lost position.

Man, just think what Anson could do surrounded by all that power.  It would be like putting J.S. Bach at a mighty organ.  Suj, are you reading this?
Parent - - By Lee Ma Hong (**) Date 2007-06-26 04:26
he'll still need an opening book specialist to match your and Jeoren's opening preparation.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 11:16
That would be Dagh Nielsen.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 05:30
Actually, hearing about all the teams using octals, 16-core, and 32-core machines really reduced my respect for the event. I find it much more impressive when I hear about people winning with marginal hardware.

Alan
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-06-26 07:43
Yes,
People who win money prizes from this event are people who do not need the money because people who need money
usually do not have octals or better hardware.

Uri
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 11:29
True, but irrelevant.  Nobody with an ounce of common sense enters this tournament for the money.  Think about the amount of preparation work involved in relation to the *chance* of winning some prize money.  Our team, for example: three people, 17 rounds (qualifiers and finals), 3 hours each = 153 hours of tournament time.  Then layer on our constant effort to improve between tournaments.  Let's for the sake of round numbers postulate that each tournament requires (yes, requires!) 1000 man-hours (though I believe it has to be more).

Under those assumptions if you are guaranteed a place in finals (you're not!) and the prize money were divided equally between each team (it isn't!), then our team members would get paid the equivalent of $ 1.40 per hour.  Honestly I believe prison inmates make more money making license plates.

So clearly the driving force here isn't money, but ego-mania and the same sanguinary impulses that drove Tamerlane.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-06-26 11:55
I disagree about it.
It could be correct if humans use common sense but they do not do it.

Why people gamble in the lottery  when it is clear that they can expect an average lose?

They do it for the small chance of winning.
My guess is that the same is here and I guess that many teams do not even think about the case that they do not win the tournament and the winners here are not players with equal chance to anyone but with better chance.

It is no accident that vasik won the freestyle more than one time and his probability to win a free style was clearly better than 1/10 so the assumption that his probability to win the free style is the same as everyone does not hold.

I also doubt if every team in the final use 1000 man hours of preperation.
It may be correct for your team but when I see pure rybka play I cannot get out of the impression that some players do not take the tournament seriously and even have no time to sit near the board in the games that is 153 hours of tournament time.

Uri
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 12:28
Amusing reply.  Do you know what the lottery is?  A cruel and cynical government tax on the statistically-challenged.  There is no statistically significant difference in your likelihood of winning whether you play or don't play.  In both cases the likelihood is extremely close to zero.  Those who enthusiastically say "you can't win if you don't play!" should hear the retort "you can't lose if you don't play!"  I am happy to say that I have never purchased a lottery ticket in my life, and I am sure anyone reading this who has could not have won because otherwise they'd be doing something other than computer chess.

As for all your other comments, no question you are correct on every point.  In a zero-sum environment, the strong crush the weak.  The strongest do it more often and more efficiently than anyone else.  That is the basic lesson of Nature.  Remember Conan the Barbarian's view on what is good in life.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-27 14:32
Aha. So, Cato team is guided by ego-mania. Interesting :)

Vas
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 17:07
What else could it be?  Surely not the money.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-26 12:36
Hey, I got 20-something place last summer working by myself with a single-processor running 32-bit operating system :-)
Parent - By Nick (*****) Date 2007-06-26 09:05 Edited 2007-06-26 09:13
Hooligans ... Hooligans??  No, no, we are the Chess Mafia :)

As for hardware, let's be clear, the biggest piece of kit we had for the final was Majd's QX6700 running at 3.2 Ghz.  When Vas, with tongue firmly in-cheek, referred to Majd's NASA-like lab set-up he was describing our future Freestyle 7 entry.

But you have given me an idea ... imagine Dagh (W.A. Mozart) surrounded by a petaflop Blue Gene/L,C,P,Q ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Gene ) running Rybka3.0-ppc on 40,960 cores?  There is a smaller one knocking about in a Research Lab ( http://www.top500.org/site/829 ) but I have no idea how the imaginary Rybka would scale on it, or if monstrous floating point hardware is any good for chess. 

Finding someone to pay the electricity bill would be a challenge, we'd have to make them an offer they couldn't refuse :)
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-27 14:30
Has anybody actually confirmed that these machines exist?

Vas
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 14:34
We only have Suj's representations (cough).
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-27 14:40
Does someone have (for example) the game Ultra-D - Cato the Younger, with search depth information for the standalone Rybka?

Vas
Parent - - By Intagrand (*) Date 2007-06-27 15:15
In both games, vs Mission Control and Ultra-d, the feed back was identical to that of an 8-way machine. Is that what you experienced also Vas? I'm not sure it's due to an operating system bug which doesn't recognise 32 threads, or there could be another reason, namely it actually being just an 8-way system.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-29 13:29
That's interesting information, thanks.

I'm sure there are ways to hack one's machine so that it misreports its hardware. This is after all freestyle.

Vas
Parent - - By David Evans (****) Date 2007-06-29 13:36
The 8way machines used by Suj are i belive just remote link ups to his main machines which are 32way yes he has 8ways just to link upto his 32ways wow.
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2007-06-29 14:32
Life isn't fair :)
My ultra high tech machine is a E6600 (running at 3.2 GHz), he uses a 8-way as router ;)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 16:55
Please!!! No crocodile tears from people with Intel quads running  at 3.2 GHz. This is a very powerful machine...
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2007-06-29 17:02
Agree, as the E6600 is not a quad but a dualcore ;)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 17:06
Oops, Mea Culpa. You're right, this is substandard hardware for current freestyle events (and much faster than my dual Opteron). I was thinking of the Q6600 which I, and a gazillion other people, will be buying on July 21.

Alan
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 17:28
What is the reason for buying these on July 21?  What will be the prize range then?
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 17:39
That is the day that the Q6600 goes to $267. At that point, the cheapest man in the world can rationalize buying a new computer, just for chess :-)
Parent - - By -valdimor- (**) Date 2007-06-26 07:34
hi

can somebody explain one thing to me,when you say you have 4 threads is it like 4 cables that you connect to your PC?
Parent - By urodets (**) Date 2007-06-26 08:38
4 threads= 4 cores in cpu,  quad processor.
Parent - By j_futur (**) Date 2007-06-27 12:30
Threads = instruction, task. Multi thread processor is a processor witch is able  to execute several instructions or search on the same time. As quadcore processor is able to execute 04 threads on the same time.
First PIV processors (1.6Ghz to ~2Ghz) are not hyperthreadings.
Parent - - By suj (***) Date 2007-06-29 20:19
Hello all,

LOL....

Cato its not 2 -its 3x32 though i never used 32 as centaur. All servers are remotely connected through octa and one could easily make it run as though from a laptop just like jazzled does with Junior(aka Rybka) on golden boy.

Suj
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 21:12
LOL, thanks for the clarification, Suj.  So when is the cluster going in?  Sounds like you can amass more than 200 threads no sweat. 
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Ultra-d was not a suj clone

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