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- - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-01-11 08:04 Edited 2010-01-24 20:57
Has visited today a website [Deleted] Has seen that books of the Russian authors (Kosmodrom, Zunkor, Zeeman) are rebooted on mediafire.com. This disgrace! These books can be loaded with gladiators-chess. What for to spend time and traffic, rebooting books? The Russian authors do not know, how many time was loaded by their books. The site gladiators-chess loses visitors, they go on mediafire.com to load books. This disgrace. With it that is necessary that to do. I demand installation of original references. I the administrator gladiators-chess, and I declare that if moonrider will not change the reference to loading of books on [Deleted] (books: Newbook, Zeemanbook, Mybook) then our site will stop delivery of popular books. Then books from a site will be only private. moonrider should correct references to loading of books on original, from a site gladiators-chess. I do not wish to see Mybook20 on mediafire.com.
P.S. I am sorry for sharp tone. But this situation needs to be solved.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2010-01-11 14:05
you are right ofcourse.

legally you should distribute the books under a general license which stipulates that these books can not be redistributed by other parties without your permission, then at least it is clear.
Parent - By gotogo (**) Date 2010-01-25 03:17
mybook 20 isn't on his site anymore but mybook19 is....
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) Date 2010-01-26 17:26
i like moonriders homepage a lot, he is doing a great job.
- - By Sciolto (***) Date 2010-01-11 10:02
With all due respect, I cannot follow your logic. The books are free, right ? Moonrider just provides an alternative download. That can be a good thing when Gladiators is offline. It's a backup. Besides, it will offload the Gladiator server traffic. Unless you are earling money someway or another by keeping books in a central location your post doesn't make any sense at all. Gladiators can still be the origin for publication of the free books and I don't belief for a second that an alternative download site actually has a bad impact on Gladiator forum visits. If there is any impact at all then that would be a positive one. One example : I knew the Moonrider site before Gladiators. Without Moonrider I would never have heard of Gladiators, especially since it is in Russian. Moonrider not only offers an alternative download but also a helping hand for people that do not speak Russian.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-01-11 10:29

> Moonrider just provides an alternative download.


An ad-infested one. You seriously see nothing wrong with them making money off the book without the author's permission?
Parent - - By Sciolto (***) Date 2010-01-11 10:39 Edited 2010-01-11 10:48
Who do you think is making money ? Certainly it is not Moonrider.

Do you seriously want to have a single location for a book download ? That is possible because it's your choice. I chose to download from Mediafire and even though I don't like ads, I do not have to pay for the download, but at least it's available when the original site is slow or offline, or when I don't feel like using Google translate to understand Russian. Freedom of choice to obtain uncopyrighted material. I wonder what would happen if news agencies tried to keep all news from their peers.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-01-11 10:43
The money would go to the hosting servers, if you click their ads, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-01-11 10:44
It doesn't matter who. It's piracy all the same.
Parent - By Sciolto (***) Date 2010-01-11 10:48
Don't make me laugh.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-01-11 11:04
It would be piracy if kosmodrom is losing money due to the moonrider site, if e.g. the linked books were commercial, which isn't the case.

The people visiting moonrider's aren't even paying any money, and nothing if they don't want, it's like a tip jar, they'd need to click the ads.
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-01-11 11:09
You think copyright doesn't apply to it because kosmodrom doesn't use it to make money?

You'd be wrong.
- - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-01-11 11:17 Edited 2010-01-11 11:25
It's a modified copy, too (bigger than the original).

Ban the pirate.
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-01-11 12:51
The language problem does not exist. I visit Rybkaforum, Sedatchess, and they in English. I listen to foreign music. You it is better than me? I can be on a foreign site. You cannot be on Russian site? When I see Perfect on mediafire.com that I laugh. All of us we know where to search Perfect. Absolutely not clearly, what for to reupload books when they can be downloaded freely? There is no problem with loading of books with gladiators-chess.
I confirm all told earlier. Gjunter should correct links to books of the Russian authors. Otherwise I will stop on gladiators-chess release of public books. They will be only for Russian. What you will tell, Gjunter?
Parent - By Moonrider (**) Date 2010-01-11 13:28
I see they are back here to make many friends, they are free to keep their books for themselves, it will bring no benefit for your website.
Parent - - By Sciolto (***) Date 2010-01-11 14:41
The language problem doesn't go away by stating that it doesn't exist for you. Not everyone is like you.
You also cannot state that gladiotor-chess is without download problems. Can you garantee 100% up time ? Don't think so.
What I don't understand is why you complain in the first place. The book authors want to share their books, right ? So what possible harm will an alternative download do ? It isn't as if Moonrider does not update frequently enough. If you are really interested in offering a service to the chess community then you should not monopolize the download location, because it will look like this is an ego game to you, instead of offering a free book. Making 'threats' to offer these books only to Russians is even more silly since it will only attract more 'Moonriders', or people will simply forget about Russian books and develop better ones.
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-01-11 19:06
Sciolto, I can guarantee 100 % of loading from a site. As I can guarantee that there will come February, and there will be a demand for games of January. Language of threats badly. I tried to speak with Moonrider good language. I wrote it letters. Opened Threads here. Helps Nothing. I do not want, that Moonrider shifted my books on mediafire.com. I have on this right. I have the right to collect games playchess. And I have the right to do their popular. Moonrider breaks my rights. And you support it. There are people that do not love Russian. These people will do all on the contrary by Russian. Even if Russian are right. Russian have book authors. Russian have Pionerchess. We are self-sufficient. We will play on playchess and we will define, whose books it is better.
Parent - By Sciolto (***) Date 2010-01-11 21:20
You insinuate I have something against Russians. I don't. I have Russian friends.
You think I want to play on Playchess ? I never go there, or any other engine room.
I simply questioned your reasoning and motives, but instead of addressing the issues you give me silly rhetoric.
It was a pleasure having this 'discussion' with you. Good bye!
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2010-01-12 11:31

> There are people that do not love Russian.


Now you know how Americans feel!
Parent - - By eduardotav (**) Date 2010-01-15 07:35
i am whit your point kosmo, you are my hero man
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-01-19 20:08
Friends, I you urge to influence Gjunter. It is necessary for me, that Gjunter has removed references to books gladiators-chess. Or put original references. Otherwise the base of games for January will be private. It will be a loss for bookmaker. We do not want it. We hope for the resolution of conflict. Regards.
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-01-24 19:41 Edited 2010-02-07 03:04
Has come today again on [Deleted]. What do I see? I see that Gjunter has stolen book Zeeman1.5 at a site gladiators-chess. Gjunter - fast small. So swindlers, rascals and losers arrive only. He asserts that my books will lose, if it does not place them with itself. I ask not to place them with myself. To speak with rascal Gjunter I do not wish.
1. The site gladiators-chess stops release of accessible books. Our books good, but will be now only private.
2. The site gladiators-chess stops release of accessible games playchess.
My foreign chess friends! Tell thanks of Gjunter.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-01-24 19:57
It's ridiculous that you take such actions for one person, you're giving that person all the power and punish all the people that couldn't do anything about it.
Parent - - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2010-01-25 22:05 Edited 2010-01-25 22:22

>...and punish all the people that couldn't do anything about it


Of course, I agree with this statement, because Vytron is absolutely right about this...
By the way, AFAIK, is not Moonrider site, the only site that offers mirrors of these books, there are those web sites and blogs(blogspots) a lot...
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-02-06 22:06
When I began this theme that hoped for understanding. I hoped that on Moonrider German fans of chess will influence. If Moonrider was from Russia then I could find convincing words for it. The site gladiators-chess has collected more than 17 thousand games playchess for January. We wish to make these games popular, but we against policy Moonrider. As it is impossible to do popular opening book. We do not wish to see ours opening book on mediafire.com. The Difficult situation.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-02-06 23:44
Moonrider has been banned from the forum and all links to his site removed, we can't do more than that.
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-02-07 04:18
What for banned Moonrider? It collects references to all books. It is good. It facilitates to the user search of new books. If at bookmaker there is no site that its book it is possible to find on Moonrider. The Only stipulation that my site against reupload book on mediafire.com. To carry on dialogue with Gjunter it is better, than banned it.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-02-07 04:34
ok, well then I guess its a good thing that we didn't just shoot him, like some had suggested!
Parent - - By Prima (****) Date 2010-02-07 04:40

> Moonrider has been banned from the forum and all links to his site removed


I usually won't involve myself in these "unecessary" book-matters stirred up by a particular person but I think banning Moonrider because of uploading a particular book is harsh. Too harsh, considering the book in question is not a private book or "closed" book.

Though I make my ctg & bin books now, I think the rest of the non-book makers as well as new-comers  and even book-makers still need Moonrider's site. People deserve to enjoy these computer chess accessories from Moonrider's site - since 99.9% are public and free. Penalizing Moonrider because of one book-maker's compaints, compared to other book-makers who aren't complaining against him for uploading their books, is equivalent to depriving those who can't make books the "enjoyment" of computer chess accessories.

Perhaps you and the rest of the moderators can consider unbanning Moonrider? Thanks in advance.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-02-07 08:25

> since 99.9% are public and free.


0.1% of piracy is piracy.

Yes, piracy of free software, it's the same thing, the only difference is that you don't pay for it, but the concept remains.

This is a grey area, but if someone were making mirror links of e.g. freeware Komodo and Larry and Don complained about it (because they only wanted to distribute via Jim Abblet's site or something), we'd do the same.
Parent - By Prima (****) Date 2010-02-07 09:26

> Yes, piracy of free software, it's the same thing, the only difference is that you don't pay for it, but the concept remains.


The only exceptional difference here is, the author of "my book" makes it a freeware (besides the occasional games asked) which indirectly implies one may do as he/she wishes, as with most freewares - as long as the proper credit is given where due. In this case, Moonrider downloaded the "my book" and did what he wanted, which was upload it in his site for public users. He has no profits from "my book" ctg whatsoever nor is he claiming that he makes the "my book" series. What is the piracy here? None.

On the bigger picture, I asked for the unbanning of Moonrider because not only has he done so much for us, but also to those who depend on free public book-makers for their books. I think the scale of "other" free public book-makers (who aren't complaining unnecessarily) should outweigh the "one author" complaining of "wrong doing", though technically, there hasn't been any wrong doing or piracy done - as the "my book" was freeware and users are free to download and do what they want with the "my book".
Parent - By Moonrider (**) Date 2010-02-08 12:47 Edited 2010-02-08 12:57
Maybe the whole forum is illegal, I hope they know what they write .. In any case,  is very interesting here.
https://webspace.utexas.edu/zzw57/rtc/eval/eval.html
Those who sit in glass houses should not throw stones ..
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) Date 2010-02-07 09:04
unbanning Moonrider? AGREE TOTALLY

he does a good job and makes no money for this!
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2010-02-07 09:09
Vytron, please unbanning Moonrider. Gladiators-chess site any more has to it no claims. Russian people not the malicious.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-02-07 09:41
I think moonrider would be allowed if you* gave them permission of reuploading these books to mediafire.com, or if they stopped doing it.

(*) By "you" I meant the book authors.
Parent - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2010-02-08 15:27

>By Prima
>Perhaps you and the rest of the moderators can consider unbanning Moonrider? Thanks in advance.


>By Kreuzfahrtschiff
>unbanning Moonrider? AGREE TOTALLY
>he does a good job and makes no money for this!


>By kosmodrom
>Vytron, please unbanning Moonrider.


I also agree with these statements....

> since 99.9% are public and free.


>0.1% of piracy is piracy.


From my point of view, Moonrider is not a pirate, or something similar, by the way, if Kosmo (or any other creator of the opening books) is not insisted on sanctions, then I do not see any reason for sanctioning Moonrider, just because he offered a mirror for free books...

Btw, afaik, users who use the Opera web browser have a problem, because they can not run the download from www.gladiators-chess (with Firefox/K-Meleon and with FlashGet everything works OK), so for example, these mirrors are very useful thing for those users...

Perhaps it would be best for all, if Moonrider placed on your site original link from www.gladiators-chess.ru + one mirror... (of course, if Kosmo agrees with that)

Best Regards
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-02-07 09:21

> Penalizing Moonrider because of one book-maker's compaints


And because of his refusal to do anything about it. It's 100% his own fault. He'd been doing it for months before he got banned - normally it would have been a permanent ban the day someone noticed.

> Too harsh, considering the book in question is not a private book or "closed" book.


Wait, what? Does the copyright somehow deserve less respect just because the author isn't charging money for the book? Where's the line? Do you think it's okay to pirate a $1 book?
Parent - - By Prima (****) Date 2010-02-07 09:32

> Wait, what? Does the copyright somehow deserve less respect just because the author isn't charging money for the book? Where's the line? Do you think it's okay to pirate a $1 book?


I do not condone copyright infringement of any kind. But the term "freeware" implies one can use a product as he/she likes as long as
1. The freeware isn't sold to another person/company
2. Proper credit is given where due etc...

Moonrider has done neither of these. He simply downloaded the "my book" and re-uploaded it to his site - for those relying on freeware public books to use. Peope are attracted to Moonrider's site because
1. He uploads many free public books and gives proper credits to each book by stating the author's name alongside each book.
2. He is always updated and his services are free - in the cause to help computer chess any way he can.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-02-07 09:44 Edited 2010-02-07 09:46

> But the term "freeware" implies one can use a product as he/she likes as long as
> 1. The freeware isn't sold to another person/company
> 2. Proper credit is given where due etc...


Wrong. Wikipedia:

Software classified as freeware is normally fully functional for an unlimited time with no cost, monetary or otherwise. Freeware can be proprietary software available at zero price.[3] The author usually restricts one or more rights to copy, distribute, and make derivative works of the software.[4] The software license may impose restrictions on the type of use including personal use, individual use, non-profit use, non-commercial use, academic use, commercial use or any combination of these. For instance, the license may be "free for personal, non-commercial use".
Parent - - By Prima (****) Date 2010-02-07 10:00

> Wrong.
> non-profit use, non-commercial use,


Not wrong entirely. The Wikipedia "non-profit use, non-commercial use" agrees or have the same meaning to my #1 description of freeware :)

But not to argue, all I'm asking is to consider unbanning Moonrider - giving him a strict warning. Just give him one more chance. I don't have any financial profit from Moonrider's site nor do I depend on freeware public books because I make mine. But in consideration of those relying on a site that offers them numerous freeware books, I ask for the moderators to bring back Moonrider. Everyone deserves a second chance.  

Thank you moderators for the consideration.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-02-07 10:07

> Thank you moderators for the consideration.


To clarify, I'm not a moderator. The moderators are CumnorChessClub, exigentsky, Felix Kling, Henrik Dinesen, SR, Vasik Rajlich, Vytron
Parent - By serbian master (**) Date 2010-02-07 16:45
CumnorChessClub :) I see him in playchess
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-02-07 20:15
I'm not surprised that Vytron went off in the weeds here, but I wouldn't have expected you to follow him...

Authors don't like secondary distribution and software makers actually include these restriction in their EULAs, but they are universally unenforceable. It is perfectly OK for you to sell a used book that you own to someone else, or a used OS, or a used chess program, or whatever. As long as you provide them with the entire unmodified package and remove it from your system, everything is OK. This is NOT a gray area in the copyright law which specifically allows for secondary sales.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-02-07 22:00

> universally unenforceable.


As opposed to just "practically unenforceable"? What's the practical difference?

> unmodified package


It was recompressed (bigger and password-free; Mediafire doesn't allow password-protected archives due to concerns about piracy).

> remove it from your system


How does that work with file-sharing sites? Is Mediafire the only copyright infringer here?

> everything is OK.


The author will probably think you're a jerk for doing it if he told you not to.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-02-08 00:29
As opposed to just "practically unenforceable"? What's the practical difference?

The practical difference is that you get a bundle of rights when you buy something, and for many products, these rights include the ability to resell the product. There are some things that can't be resold, such as airline tickets, leases, etc., but software applications and databases don't fall into one of these categories. Don't fret about the price either. You are perfectly free to give your stuff away if you so please.

It was recompressed (bigger and password-free; Mediafire doesn't allow password-protected archives due to concerns about piracy).

This is potentially out-of-bounds.

How does that work with file-sharing sites? Is Mediafire the only copyright infringer here?

If you buy one copy, you can only resell one copy. So file sharing is a no-no unless you can claim that you could have downloaded the item for free.

The author will probably think you're a jerk for doing it if he told you not to.

Of course! Authors and developers are never going to appreciate secondary markets. Every secondary sale is a potential lost sale for the author or developer. This didn't stop me from reselling my college textbooks, or some of my old computers, or a bunch of houses that I no longer own, or anything else. It's important not to let other people's feelings interfere with your property rights! :-)

The only thing that makes this particular case even remotely interesting is that the book was free and moonrider took advantage of this to redistribute it to anyone who wanted it. This isn't uncommon (e.g. PC World and ZDNet rehost a large number of free and share ware applications), but in most cases the developer gets noticed a lot more than an opening book would.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-02-08 07:58

> It's important not to let other people's feelings interfere with your property rights! :-)


This is where we differ (but only with regard to free stuff :)): if someone gives me a piece of software for free, my payment is that I give some consideration to their wishes regarding how I use and distribute it. See also: catware. (Google failed to turn up any relevant hits so you'll just have to imagine it).
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-02-08 08:03

> See also: catware. (Google failed to turn up any relevant hits so you'll just have to imagine it).


That's odd. Is it a software that requires you keep feeding it every day? Or is that the more generic Petware?
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2010-02-08 08:16
"If you use this piece of software, please touch a cat" or something like that. I think the Wikipedia article linked to a newsgroup discussion about how a Linux package manager should handle it ('touch' and 'cat' are Unix commands). Or how people who are allergic to cats can abide by it.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-02-08 11:47
Thanks, I could have never imagined that.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2010-02-08 01:30

> I'm not surprised that Vytron went off in the weeds here, but I wouldn't have expected you to follow him...


Actually, Vempele presented the case to moderation since long time ago, and we took a real while to act, but agreed that the only difference between this and piracy is that the original books are free. Or they aren't, say, the price the authors charge is that you have to download them from their website, if someone else provides a mirror then that skips paying the price. Just because the price isn't money doesn't mean it's not piracy.
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