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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Rybka - Shredder
- - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 14:51
Hi to all!

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nfd7 13.Ne4 Qxa2 14.Rd1 Qd5 15.Qe3 Qxe5 16.Be2 Bc5 17.Bg3 Bxd4 18.Rxd4 Qa5+ 19.Rd2 O-O 20.Bd6 Re8? is 1-0.

But what do you can say about 20.-- Rd8...
Again, IMHO, it is 0-1.

Let's discuss it! :)
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 15:37
:D :D
Sorry, white make at least draw. Anyway, it is better than to lose for black. :)

20.-- Rd8 21.Qg3 Qf5 22.Be5 Qg6 23.Qh4 Nc6 24.Bc3 Nf8 25.Rxd8 Nxd8 26.Bd3 Qxg2 27.Bxf6 =
I like position after 27.-- Qxh1+ 28.Kf2.

r1bn1nk1/1p3p2/p3pB1p/8/7Q/3B4/2P2K1P/7q b - - 1 29
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 15:50
Interesting things happen after 21.Qg3 Qf5 22.Be5 Qg6 23.Qh4 Nc6
24.Bc3 Nf8 25.Rxd8 Nxd8 26.Bd3 Qxg2 27.Rf1 Nc6 28.Nf6+ Kh8.

r1b2n1k/1p3pp1/p1n1pN1p/8/7Q/2BB4/2P3qP/4KR2 w - - 4 29
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 16:25
21.Qg3 Qf5 22.Be5 Qg6 23.Qh4 Nc6 24.Bc3 Nf8 25.Rxd8 Nxd8 26.Bd3 Qxg2 27.Rf1 Nc6 28.Nf6+ Kh8
29.Ne8 e5 30.Rxf7 Ne6!
  31.Nd6 Qg1+  32.Kd2 Kg8 33.Qe4 Qg5+  34.Ke1 =
  31.Bc4 Qg6 32.Bxe6 Qg1+ 33.Ke2 Bxe6 34.Rxg7 Qc1 35.Rg3 Qxc2+ 36.Ke1 =
29.Nh5 e5 30.Rxf7
  30.-- Ne6 31.Nxg7 Qg5 =
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 17:04
21.Qg3 Qf5 22.Be5 Qg6 23.Qh4 Nc6 24.Bc3 Rf8 (instead of 24.-- Nf8) looks promising for black.

IMHO ;)
Parent - - By grolich (***) Date 2007-06-22 18:44
I think the position is way too complex to be judged by so few lines.

Even by the moves you have reached you have already passed by very interesting opportunities (not less complex, and not necessarily good or bad for black or white, but interesting nonetheless).

To give one such line, I'd look at Bb2!? (instead of Bc3).
This adds the option of Ba3 for later, and makes the Rf8 move a lot less attractive.

Considering that Rd3 and swing to kside is always an option if black goes Rf8, and Ba3 can cause trouble...
this line looks particularly interesting right now.
I've decided to do some analysis of it, since really, it's actual lines which count in this hyper complex variation.

Looks interesting (and no less complicated than when I started) so far.
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 22:26
24.Bb2! is very good move.
24.-- f6 25.Rf8 Ba3 26.Qe8 - IMHO black's only hope to draw.
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 21:59
If black agree to draw then
20.-- Rd8 21.Qg3 f5 22.Bc7 Qb4 23.Bxd8 Qxe4 24.Bc7 Nc6 25.0-0 Qb4 26.Rd1 Qc5+ 27.Kh1 Qe7 is draw.
r1b3k1/1pBnq1p1/p1n1p2p/5p2/8/6Q1/2PRB1PP/3R3K w - - 8 28


Of course, IMHO. ;)
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 14:47
We (I and turbojuice1122) are playing thematic test game in that line now.

I hope it will be finished during next one or two weeks.

;)
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 01:01
turbojuice1122 might be starting to see drawing lines...
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 22:15
20.-- Rd8 21.Qg3 Nc6 22.Bc7 Qa1+ 23.Rd1 Qb2 24.Nd6 Qxc2 25.Rf1 Rf8 26.Nxc8 Raxc8 27.Rxd7 Nd4 28.Rxd4 Rxc7 - again looks equal. :)
5rk1/1pr2pp1/p3p2p/8/3R4/6Q1/2q1B1PP/4KR2 w - - 0 29
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-22 22:47
So...

Is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 Nfd7 13.Ne4 Qxa2 14.Rd1 Qd5 15.Qe3 Qxe5 16.Be2 Bc5 17.Bg3 Bxd4 18.Rxd4 Qa5+ 19.Rd2 O-O 20.Bd6 Rd8 equal? ;)
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-23 01:22
20...Rd8 is definitely a forced loss, as many people have noted.  The only thing that can save black is 20...Nc6.  I will send my analysis showing a number of lines in 20...Rd8 that lose, lines that seem "good", when the Freestyle tournament is over.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-23 01:26
Or maybe I won't--I'm not sure--I might save it for if someone is foolish enough to play 20...Rd8 against me.  But suffice it to say that I am COMPLETELY sure that 20...Rd8 is lost for black. :-)
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-23 01:55
It looks - I must find a forced draw. :)
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-23 02:01
I will think about it few days...
If white have forced win I will find it.

But, if I won't find win for white, then I am ready to be that foolish man who will challenge you.
I am always ready to pay for experience.

Ok.. Time will show.

;)
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 09:13
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 is equal. IMHO
If white wants to win he must play something other instead 7.f4. I prefer 7.Qf3. :)
Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) Date 2007-06-24 09:47
i killed this in freestyle yesterday
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 09:50 Edited 2007-06-24 09:56
I don't understand. What did you kill? I don't have your game.

7.f4 - 1-0 or 0-1.
Or 7.Qf3 - again 1-0 or 0-1.

I can try to guess - you won against 7.Qf3 - 0-1, didn't you?

Thanks before answer. :)
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 10:03
I found it!!

[Event "6th Freestyle Final, Round 6"]
[Site "playchess.com #101652"]
[Date "2007.06.23"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "PvP, Rybka 2.3.2a mp"]
[Black "Kreuzfahrtschiff"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B95"]
[WhiteElo "2454"]
[BlackElo "2634"]
[PlyCount "244"]
[EventDate "2007.06.23"]
[EventType "match (rapid)"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qf3 h6 8.Be3 e5 9.Nb3 Be6 10.Nd5 Nbd7 11.Bd3 Bxd5 12.exd5 g6 13.Nd2 Bg7 14.c4 O-O 15.O-O Re8 16.Be2 Rc8 17.Qh3 h5 18.Bg5 Qc7 19.Qg3 Nh7 20.Be3 e4 21.Bf4 Qb6 22.Rab1 Be5 23.Nxe4 Qd4 24.Qe3 Qxe3 25.fxe3 Bxf4 26.Rxf4 g5 27.Rxf7 Kxf7 28.Nxd6+ Kg6 29.g4 Nhf6 30.gxh5+ Kh6 31.Rd1 Rb8 32.Nxe8 Rxe8 33.Kf2 a5 34.h3 Rf8 35.Kg2 Re8 36.Kf2 Nxh5 37.Bg4 Rf8+ 38.Kg2 Nhf6 39.Bf5 Ne5 40.b3 Ng6 41.Kg1 Nh4 42.Bd3 g4 43.hxg4 Nxg4 44.Be2 Nxe3 45.Rd3 Nhf5 46.c5 Kg5 47.c6 Kf4 48.cxb7 Ng3 49.Kf2 Ne4+ 50.Ke1 Rg8 51.Bh5 Nc5 52.Rd2 Nxb7 53.d6 Nc5 54.d7 Rd8 55.Bg6 Rxd7 56.Rxd7 Nxd7 57.Kd2 Ne5 58.Bh7 Nd5 59.a3 Nd7 60.b4 a4 61.Kd3 N5f6 62.Kc4 Nxh7 63.Kb5 Ke4 64.Kxa4 Kd4 65.Kb5 Kd5 66.a4 Nhf6 67.Ka6 Kc6 68.b5+ Kc7 69.Ka5 Nd5 70.b6+ Kc6 71.b7 Nc7 72.Kb4 Na6+ 73.Kc4 Ndc5 74.b8=Q Nxb8 75.Kb4 Kd5 76.Kb5 Nb7 77.Kb6 Nd6 78.Ka5 Nc6+ 79.Kb6 Nc4+ 80.Kc7 N6a5 81.Kd7 Ke5 82.Ke7 Kf5 83.Kf7 Nc6 84.Kg7 N4e5 85.Kh6 Na7 86.Kh5 Ng6 87.a5 Nc6 88.a6 Na7 89.Kh6 Nf4 90.Kg7 Ke6 91.Kf8 Kf6 92.Ke8 Ng6 93.Kd7 Ke5 94.Ke8 Ke6 95.Kd8 Nf8 96.Ke8 Nh7 97.Kd8 Nf6 98.Kc7 Ke7 99.Kb6 Kd6 100.Ka5 Kc5 101.Ka4 Kc4 102.Ka3 Kc3 103.Ka2 Ne4 104.Kb1 Kd2 105.Ka2 Kc2 106.Ka3 Kc3 107.Ka4 Nd6 108.Ka3 Ndb5+ 109.Ka2 Kc2 110.Ka1 Nd6 111.Ka2 Nc4 112.Ka1 Kb3 113.Kb1 Nb2 114.Kc1 Kc3 115.Kb1 Nd3 116.Ka2 Kb4 117.Kb1 Kb3 118.Ka1 Kc2 119.Ka2 Nb5 120.Ka1 Nb4 121.a7 Nd4 122.a8=Q Nb3# 0-1
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 10:19
Brilliant endgame! And game too, of course! :)
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) Date 2007-06-24 10:35
thx, was a hard fight, with some mistakes on both sides
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 10:38
My first impressions:
- Why to play 11.Bd3? I prefer 11.c4.
- 10.h3 is not bad move at first look.
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 10:43
10.Be2 looks nice too.
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 11:08
I am still sure that white wins after 7.Qf4.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-06-24 22:20
Assuming you meant 7.Qf3, that's quite a claim, that the #1 defense to 1.e4 loses! But I must admit, both Rybka and I myself are rather impressed by the idea of retreating the bishop to e3 when attacked here. As far as I can tell so far, Rybka doesn't see a path to full equality for Black, though "wins" seems a bit of an overstatement. Perhaps a key line is where Black refrains from playing 8...e5 and chooses 8...Nbd7 9.0-0-0 Qc7 10. Qg3 b5 11.a3 Rb8, intending ...b4. What do you think? By the way, what is your own playing strength?
Parent - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-27 03:22
I failed. Sorry.. :)
After more serious analysis I think - line offered by you is equal.

I don't have playing strength OTB.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Rybka - Shredder

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