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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / New IDEA - some introductory videos
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- - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2009-12-03 15:34
Here are 2 videos about the new IDEA. The first is about creating projects. The second is about some of the changes in the IDEA environment. I will try to make some more to explain other aspects. Ofcourse dont be hard on my english (some times its hard to find the right word on the fly.. :)  )

Parent - By Sandalls (**) [us] Date 2009-12-04 00:05
Thanks very much for the nice video instructions Buffos.  Definitely helped me get started.
Parent - - By retep1 (***) [de] Date 2009-12-04 00:26
can I download the videos?
Parent - By Arkansaw (***) Date 2009-12-04 01:07
youtube downloader, google for it
Parent - By Shaun (****) [gb] Date 2009-12-04 12:29
Thank you for the great tutorials....

We need more of these - I find it so much easier to understand concepts when you see them in action rather than just reading instructions....

Parent - - By Shaun (****) [gb] Date 2009-12-04 12:39
In the second video you can see idle engines when we get towards the end of the current stage and less tasks remain than engines available.

Does this still happen if you have multiple concurrent projects active or multiple roots in the same project?


Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2009-12-04 12:54
Multiple projects - a lot less. Multiple roots - still happens, as minimaxing is done for every root at the same time.
Parent - - By Shaun (****) [gb] Date 2009-12-04 13:08
This did not seem to be a minimaxing issue or am I missing something...

In the current Stage when the number of tasks remaining was less than the number of engines available they just waited.

Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2009-12-04 13:16
There won't be any new tasks until you minimax. With multiple projects, minimaxing happens whenever one queue runs out of tasks.
Parent - By Shaun (****) [gb] Date 2009-12-04 13:56
Okay so as long as you have as many tasks as engines in reality the engines will not run out of work to do.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-12-16 16:53
This would be a good thread to place as a "sticky" for this subforum.
Parent - - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2010-02-25 08:36
The tutorials are really great thank you for taking time producing these.  I am running Aquarium 2010 in a laptop with Intel Core 2 duo at 2Ghz just upgraded to Rybka 3 from Rybka 2.3.2a.   I have not tried IDEA with Rybka 3 but each time I tried it with Rybka 2.3.2a.  The positions never completed.  I am not sure if I am making a mistake or not.  Can you give me a postion to try IDeA that would complete in about 4-6 hours. 

IDeA seems very interesting and groundbreaking,  I am waiting to see a completed output of IDeA
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2010-02-25 10:48

> positions never completed.

what do you mean completed? Do you see the tree being created? Do you see the green boxes?
Parent - - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2010-02-26 06:48
Yes I see the green boxes, loads and loads of green boxes and boxes in progress.  Does this complete by itself or do I have to stop at a point ?,  If I stop how do I see all the work done.  Give me one position and some sort of expected output so that I can test and findout, what I am doing wrong !!!!
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2010-02-26 13:43
IDeA doesn't stop until it solves chess (=never).

See the Tree window in the videos for example output.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-02-26 18:57

> IDeA doesn't stop until it solves chess (=never).

So, if I give it a King, Bishop and Knight Vs. King ending it will never solve it?
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2010-02-26 19:02
For relatively short values of never. Certainly long after everything of interest about the position has been discovered.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-02-26 19:13

> For relatively short values of never.

That makes sense.


Parent - - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2010-02-28 06:58
I set up a position with the white rook on a3 white king on e4 and the black king on e6.  Started a project as given in the video.  After one hour and 14 minutes of CPU time it was still solving the problem. 

In parallel I also started another project with the same position and limiting the black and white alternatives to 5 and the tree width to 10% and the prefered side as white.  this is still analysing at the time of writing with Rd6 showing and idea value of +156  and Ra6 with and Idea value of +7.

Is this normal or have i missed a point somewhere ????
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-02-28 07:13
I think +156 is its way of saying "mate".
Parent - - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2010-02-28 14:00
Well there cannot be such a difference between the two moves. There is some mistake i am making. I have a feeling based on the position (endgame or middle games) the setting on tree width, number of alternative moves needs to be optimized.
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2010-02-28 18:45
Of course there can be that much difference. I see it in lot's of correspondance games.
Parent - - By peterhiarcs (**) [at] Date 2010-02-27 06:38
Many thanks for the fine tutorials too. May I ask about the possibilities of network usage with new IDEA described at convekta site: it doesn't mean the hash of multiple engines, at least of some Rybka 3 engines is shared at remote PC over the net, does it? That would make analysis somewhat cluster- like, if it doesn't work now, do you perhaps know, if it's planned?
Thanks again and thanks in advance!
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2010-02-28 10:48
When you run multiple engines in IDeA, each engine uses its own hash. I guess you know that you can run multiple projects simultaneously in IDeA. Many players (e.g. correspondence players) use that feature to analyze different games at the same time. As you can imagine, there isn't anything to be gained by using a shared hash for all these unrelated position. Add to that the need to transfer the hash data over a network and for this situation a hash shared by all the engines would hardly be a wise option.

Note that multiple engines can also be useful for simultaneous infinite analysis and in that case you would often use several different engines where shared hash would make no sense at all. Of course you can also use different engines (simultaneously) in IDeA, but that would not be wise, except perhaps closely related engines such as the Rybka family (standard, human dynamic).

All this has nothing to do with Vas' and Gian-Carlo's interesting cluster implementations. However, if/when a cluster Rybka or Sjeng become available they could be used for analysis in Aquarium (as long as they are UCI engines), both infinite analysis and IDeA. Maybe the best practice for using a cluster engine will differ from what we are used to recommend for "normal" engines and perhaps IDeA needs to be modified to take full advantage of the new possibilities. We'll see.
Parent - - By peterhiarcs (**) [at] Date 2010-02-28 12:38
Thanks for your reply.
It was already clear to me, that sharing hash in both directions over internet would cost more than pay, but I could imagine some kind of triple or multiple brain feature, that would collect eval and order of moves from engines connected by network into one master engine or maybe even GUI only, which would help choosing a single move or variant to think about deeper.
No cluster ersatz of course, but much cheaper and easier maybe with some more effect then simple remote control, which is possible in much more ways than by a feature of a chess GUI.
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2010-02-28 13:20

> I could imagine some kind of triple or multiple brain feature, that would collect eval and order of moves from engines connected by network into one master engine or maybe even GUI only, which would help choosing a single move or variant to think about deeper.

Aquarium can display the analysis of different engines in a single window (or multiple windows, if you prefer, or want more info about the analysis of each engine). However, you must make the final move choice yourself, as the engines scale their evaluations differently. An evaluation of, let's say, +1.58 has a different meaning depending on the engine that produced it.

Here is a quick example, showing four engines analyzing the same position:

This is especially useful if you have access to more than one computer and run some of the engines over a network. You can see some similar examples in this post.
Parent - - By Dennis Breder (***) Date 2010-03-29 23:13
In your second video I see that you chose Rybka 3 1-cpu as IDeA-engine and 4 instances of them (#).
In my version (4.0.2) I cannot change the number, the number is always 1.
I can only change this number if I choose Rybka 3 (instead of Rybka 3 1-cpu) as IDeA-engine.
However, running e.g. 4 instances of Rybka 3 (multi-cpu) does not make much sence on a computer with 4 cores.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2010-03-30 05:02
that is strange. The field is editable when idea is not running. You just have to double click on it to make it active.
I can also asume that R3 1-cpu has not been moved to another directory but check it in any case from the path variable in the Engines mode.
Parent - By Dennis Breder (***) Date 2010-03-30 15:03 Edited 2010-03-30 15:07
The problem probably had to do with the fact that Rybka 3 was preinstalled in "IDeA->Engines" but not in the list of "Engines". Now I removed Rybka 3 in "IDeA->Engines" and installed it in "Engines" and now everything is fine :)
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-06-07 09:07
I have finally switched from Aquarium 3 to 2010 4.05 and feel everything, including IDEA is much more stable now.

I am experimenting with the new IDEA and have the following question: Once you have set-up a project and starting position, how can you influence from what poisition in the tree the AN starts?

It used to be that IDEA started from the position from which you started IDEA, but it does not seem to work that way anymore.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2010-06-07 09:10
you now have roots that you can turn on and off (so more starting points and actually at the same time if you want!)
Also you can also create a project that includes the whole starting line (create a new project from a game in sandbox or database to see what i am talking about)
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-06-07 09:12 Edited 2010-06-07 09:14
ok, how can i see which roots are being analysed and manage them?

is there any tutorial on this, or perhaps something Dadi wrote for chesscafe?

EDIT: hang on I think I found it. Very elegant :)

but question about comprehensive tutorial remains - perhaps make a sticky thread with all tutorials and dadi's posts?
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2010-06-07 09:15
i suggest reading the manual (there is now even online manual) and spend few hours to get to know the basics :)
When there is a problem ask and someone will share their experience i guess ;-)
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-06-07 09:20
do you mean this:

if yes, can you provide it as a downloadable pdf? i would like to print it.

thnx for the great work!!
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2010-06-07 09:22

Aquarium=>FishButton=>Help=>Online Documentation
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-06-07 09:27
ok thnx, couldn't hurt to post that link on the top of this thread also and same for the FAQ.
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-06-07 09:38
i checked this one in the manual but couldn't find it ;)

i would like to assign different engines to different projects, guess that's not possible (yet)?
Parent - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2010-06-07 12:07
no its not.
Parent - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-12 18:33
Buffos, looks like a great video, but how does one download a Utube video?
- - By Dave Felton (*) [gb] Date 2009-12-03 16:44
Thanks for the videos.
Parent - By pleasant (*) Date 2010-04-05 08:48
what videos ? where [URL ? ] do i find / see / [hear] them?
- By notyetagm (**) [us] Date 2009-12-04 05:21
Could you please make similar videos showing how to use the Game Analysis feature?

- - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2009-12-08 09:10
New video, How to work with IDEA from sandbox or database mode.
Parent - By Overlord (**) [it] Date 2009-12-08 09:59 Edited 2009-12-08 17:34
I see you are analysing with ******... so it is not a "mortal sin" to use it...
- By giarageai (*) [fr] Date 2009-12-08 21:32
Excellent !! Thank you!
Videos are the most pedagogic way
- - By vmencin [si] Date 2009-12-21 15:56
I am using IDEA for serious analyzes. For e.g. Sheveningen variation with a4 and after 11...Te8 (played also in KK match) how to find the best contiuation. So I defined three projects with 12.Lf3, 12.Ld3 and 12.Sb3. And I started 3 projects simultaneously to get the evaluation of the position and to get separate tree for each contiuation. I even limited white and black choices to 4 contiuations.
After three days of analysis there was still no tree and no evaluation!!
And one has to go through so many "f" (finished) positions that creates a pain.

So where is a mistake in my setup.
How to get a good result (position evaluation + tree) within a reasonable amount of time.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2009-12-21 18:53

> After three days of analysis there was still no tree and no evaluation!!

the part where you press NEW to create a new configuration... you skipped that one.
Parent - - By vmencin [si] Date 2009-12-28 14:55
It helped. Thank you.

But where are the advantages of IDEA in comparison with "Game Analysis" as this function is already extremely good.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2009-12-29 10:08
IDEA allows you to create an analysis tree and analyse a position deeply. Very deeply. Very very deeply :)

The 2 methods are not compared.
Parent - By vmencin [si] Date 2010-01-11 16:54
Yes you are RIGHT. After some more experiments I have seen big advantage of IDEA - you just select a position and send it to a project and leave it for overnight analyzes.

I have found that clicking on so many "f" (finished) positions is time consuming.

Maybe one suggestion - after IDEA has done its work on multiple positions it would be nice to put it in ONE GAME with numerical assessment of each contiuation and sorting from the highest to the lowest assessment with regard to the side on the move - for white positive for black negative assessment.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / New IDEA - some introductory videos
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