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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Rybka - Shredder Where did black go wrong?
- - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-18 17:06
Rybka - Shredder [B97]
15th WCCC Amsterdam (11), 18.06.2007
[Rybka 2.3.2a mp  (15s)]

B97: Sicilian Najdorf: Poisoned Pawn
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.e5 dxe5 11.fxe5 Nfd7 12.Ne4 h6 13.Bh4 [13.Bb5 axb5 (13...hxg5 14.Rb3 Qxa2 15.Qc3 Nc6 16.Bxc6 bxc6 17.0-0 c5 18.Nc6 Rh4 19.Qd3 Rxe4 20.Qxe4 c4 21.Rbf3 Nc5 22.Qh7 Nd3 23.Rxf7 Nf4 24.Qg8 Qa3 25.Rxg7 1-0 Trkaljanov,V (2199)-Berlinsky,V (2384)/Linares 2003/EXT 2004) 14.Nxb5 hxg5 15.Nxa3 Rxa3 16.0-0 Nc6 17.Rb5 Be7 18.Nd6+ Bxd6 19.exd6 f6 20.Re1 Nce5 21.Qb4 Ra6 22.Rxb7 Rh4 23.Qb3 Bxb7 24.Qxe6+ Kf8 25.Rxe5 Nxe5 26.Qe7+ Kg8 27.Qxb7 Rha4 Filipek,J (2383)-Van Beers,E (2340)/Belgium 2001/EXT 2003/½-½ (33)] 13...Qxa2 14.Rd1N [14.Rb3 Qa1+ 15.Kf2 Qa4 16.Re3 (16.Bb5 axb5 17.Nxb5 Bc5+ 18.Nxc5 Qxh4+ 19.g3 Qd8 20.Qd6 (20.Nd6+ Ke7 21.Qf4 Rf8 22.Ncxb7 Qc7 23.Qb4 Qb6+ 24.Qxb6 Nxb6 25.Rxb6 Ra2 26.Rc1 Nd7 27.Rb5 f6 28.exf6+ Nxf6 29.Ke2 Bd7 30.Rb3 Ba4 31.Rc3 Nd5 32.Rc5 Rb2 33.Rf1 Rxf1 34.Kxf1 Bxc2 Podzielny,K-Marjanovic,S/Schilde 1971/EXT 2002/½-½ (57)) 20...Nxc5 21.Nc7+ Qxc7 22.Qxc7 Nba6 23.Qb6 Nxb3 24.cxb3 0-0 25.Ra1 Nc7 26.Rxa8 Nxa8 27.Qd6 b6 28.Qc6 Ba6 29.Qd7 Rc8 30.Qa7 Bb5 Kortschnoj,V-Tolush,A/Riga 1958/URS-ch/0-1 (39); 16...Nc6 17.Nxc6 Qxc6 18.Nd6+ Bxd6 19.exd6 Qc5 20.Be7 Ne5 21.Be2 Ng6 22.Rd1 Bd7 23.Bf3 Bc6 24.Bxc6+ bxc6 25.Rb1 Nxe7 26.dxe7 Qxe7 27.Rg3 Qf6+ 28.Kg1 0-0 Mazzoni,G-Tringov,G/Hagen The 1966/EXT 98/0-1 (34);
14.Rb3 Qa1+ 15.Kf2 Qa4³] 14...Qd5 15.Qe3 Qxe5 16.Be2 Bc5 17.Bg3 Bxd4 18.Rxd4 Qa5+ 19.Rd2 0-0 20.Bd6

[D]
rnb2rk1/1p1n1pp1/p2Bp2p/q7/4N3/4Q3/2PRB1PP/4K2R b K - 0 20


In this position Shredder played 20...Re8. Is that the final blunder?! I looked at the move Rybka likes, 20...Rd8 and it looks like black can hold on.... Its important that the rook is at d8 if white plays Bh5 later on.

20...Re8 [20...Rd8 21.Qg3 (21.0-0? Qb6 22.Qxb6 Nxb6 23.Rb1 (23.Bh5 f5-+) 23...Na4; 21...Qf5 22.Be5³ Qg6]

[D]
rnbr2k1/1p1n1pp1/p3p1qp/4B3/4N3/6Q1/2PRB1PP/4K2R w K - 0 23


Critical position in the variation starting with 20...Rd8. And black should hold on or....?

21.0-0 f5 [21...Qb6 22.Qxb6 Nxb6 23.Bh5] 22.Qg3 [22.Qf4!?³ is an interesting alternative] 22...fxe4µ 23.Qg6 Rd8 [23...Qxd2 24.Qxe8+ Kh7 25.Bh5 Qe3+ 26.Rf2 Qc1+ 27.Rf1 Qe3+ 28.Rf2 Qc1+ 29.Rf1 Qe3+=] 24.Rf7 Qc3 [24...Qa1+ 25.Rd1 Qc3 26.Rdf1+-] 25.Bg4² Nf8 [25...Re8 26.Rdf2 Nc6 27.Rxg7+ Qxg7 28.Qxe8+ Kh7 29.Rf7+-] 26.Bxf8± Qa1+? [¹26...Rxf8 27.Rxf8+ Kxf8±] 27.Rf1+- Qxf1+ 28.Kxf1 Rxf8+ 29.Rf2 Nc6 30.Bh5 Rxf2+ 31.Kxf2 Ne5 32.Qe8+ Kh7 33.Ke3 b5 [33...b6 34.Kf4 Bb7 35.Qe7+-] 34.Kf4 Bb7 35.Qe7 Bd5 36.Kxe5 a5 [36...e3 hardly improves anything 37.Be2+-] 37.g4 e3 38.g5 hxg5 39.Qxg5 Kg8 40.Qxe3 Rf8 41.Be2 b4 [41...Rf5+ does not save the day 42.Kd6 b4 43.Bd3+-] 42.Bd3 Rf3 [42...a4 cannot change what is in store for ? 43.Qh3 Rf6 44.Kd6+-] 43.Qg5 b3 [43...a4 a last effort to resist the inevitable 44.Qd8+ Kf7+-] 44.Bg6 Rf6 45.Qh5 Rxg6 46.Qxg6 b2 [46...Kf8 does not help much 47.Qd3 bxc2 48.Qxc2+-] 47.Qe8+ Kh7 48.Qb5 Kh6 [48...Bc6 does not win a prize 49.Qxb2 Be8 50.c4+-] 49.Qxb2 Ba8 [49...Bf3 doesn't improve anything 50.c4 Kh7 51.c5+-] 50.Qc1+ Kh5 51.Qf4 Bd5 52.c4 Bc6 53.Qf7+ Kg4 54.Qxe6+ Kf3 55.Qxc6+ Ke3 White wins 1-0
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2007-06-18 17:23
Now is the wrong time to ask such question ... wait until after the freestyle event ;)
Parent - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) Date 2007-06-18 18:26
yes, we freestylers have the answers already, but maybe someone will play it again ;)
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-18 19:12
Dont be stupid :-), nobody will repeat that variation without beeing quite sure what they are doing.
So feel free to speak up!
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2007-06-18 19:25
Let's just say that there is plenty of poison in the variation
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-18 19:28
I guess I just have to wait until someone tells me I am wrong. Until then, I say 20...Rd8 is = :-)

Torstein
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2007-06-18 21:35
Hm, are you sure!?
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-18 22:16
No, how can I be 100 % sure? But as far as I have seen with the help of Rybka I am.......

Anyway you can always check my variation at the top of the thread. The people playing freestyle deals with this variation as armed guards watching over the national treasury. :-)
Parent - - By Lee Ma Hong (**) Date 2007-06-18 23:21
Hmm ... how come you don't have any references to games played this year?
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-18 23:24
I guess my database is old. I'm definitly not plaing freestyle my self. I would probably make the program play weaker!
Parent - - By Lee Ma Hong (**) Date 2007-06-18 23:42
2 critical games in this line were played at Wijk aan Zee 2007. 20 ... Rd8 was played in Motylev-Anand

[Event "Corus A"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee NED"]
[Date "2007.01.14"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Motylev, A."]
[Black "Anand, V."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B97"]
[WhiteElo "2647"]
[BlackElo "2779"]
[PlyCount "62"]
[EventDate "2007.01.13"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2
Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nfd7 13. Ne4 Qxa2 14. Rd1 Qd5
15. Qe3 Qxe5 16. Be2 Bc5 17. Bg3 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5+ 19. Rd2 O-O 20. Bd6 Rd8 21.
Qg3 Qf5 22. Be5 Qg6 23. Qh4 Nc6 24. O-O f5 25. Bh5 Qh7 26. Bb2 fxe4 27. Rf7 Rf8
28. Qf2 Rxf7 29. Qxf7+ Kh8 30. Rf2 e5 31. Qd5 Nf6 0-1

It is now well-known that 28. Qf2 is a blunder. My guess is that Jeroen has found improvements even before 28. Qf2??

As to the game Rybka-Shredder, it followed game 3 of the Deep Junior-Deep Fritz match until move 22, when Shredder deviated with 22 ... fxe4
Parent - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-19 16:04
Maybee 26.Bc3 ???
Parent - - By ilmarinens (*) Date 2007-06-24 09:36
I am sure that 20.-- Rd8 is draw, too. 99%. :)

P.S. Greetings to turbojuice1122
Parent - By h1a8 (***) Date 2007-06-25 22:36
I'm pretty sure too. As I have tested Junior and two different Rybkas (all as white) against rybka2.3.2a (as black). The result was all wins (especially against junior) and draws for black. The time setting I used was 10min for game and 40sec per move. My hardware may be inferior though (1.8ghz AMD laptop with 256mb hash for each engine). So maybe with great hardware whites wins after 20...Rd8. I don't know.
Parent - - By h1a8 (***) Date 2007-06-19 00:24
You did well.
20...Re8 loses a tempi
20...Rd8 and black is a little better (not =) but its possible white can play for a draw.
I ran some tests with rybka against rybka and she confirms it.
I might try junior with white against rybka with black just to make sure.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-19 00:59
I think you might try Rybka against Junior instead--Rybka plays very poorly in this line unless she's guided heavily by book into winning lines, while Junior plays very well on its own.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-19 00:53 Edited 2007-06-19 00:58
No, 20...Rd8 also loses.  I don't remember why, but I remember going through that in analysis and recalling that it's not a good move.

Edit: more precisely, I remember it leading to losing lines in the end; it's possible that it simply isn't as bad as 20...Re8
Parent - - By fejman (**) Date 2007-06-19 08:45
Rd8  is forsing loose too   .There was a game in freestyle  after Rd8  easy 1:0
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2007-06-19 10:19
Yes, very true! And I know this game :-)
Parent - - By fejman (**) Date 2007-06-19 10:43
only move is not Re8 or Rd8   but Nc6 with better play for white +/=   (in my opinion )
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2007-06-19 10:49
Nc6! is surely the way to go, look at the game Anand - Van Wely at Corus 2007.
Anand won the game, but the position was really unclear. Georgiev also has some
nice analysis on this move, see his book 'The sharpest Sicilian'.
Parent - By fejman (**) Date 2007-06-19 11:02 Edited 2007-06-19 11:11
I play this line in correspondency chess and after Nc6  Bf8  its very unpleasure  position for black  but with drawish chances.But   it is something better than Bf8  ;) 
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-19 15:23 Edited 2007-06-19 15:58
Everybody knows this game, except me. (Now I do, I guess Motylev - Anand should do well!)
Anyway, how do white win after Rd8?  I always asume I am right, until proven wrong. ) :-)
Parent - - By rorik Date 2007-06-27 22:22
[Event "5th Freestyle Final"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.03.25"]
[Round "8"]
[White "The Wizard of Os"]
[Black "Engineer"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B97"]
[WhiteElo "2449"]
[BlackElo "2464"]
[Annotator ",Rorik"]
[PlyCount "113"]
[EventDate "2007.03.25"]
[EventType "rapid"]

1. e4 {[%emt 0:00:30]} c5 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 2. Nf3 {[%emt 0:00:17]} d6 {
[%emt 0:00:01]} 3. d4 {[%emt 0:00:21]} cxd4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 4. Nxd4 {
[%emt 0:00:04]} Nf6 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 5. Nc3 {[%emt 0:00:04]} a6 {[%emt 0:00:01]
} 6. Bg5 {[%emt 0:01:04]} e6 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 7. f4 {[%emt 0:00:08]} Qb6 {
[%emt 0:00:07]} 8. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:12]} Qxb2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 9. Rb1 {
[%emt 0:00:07]} Qa3 {[%emt 0:00:03]} 10. e5 {[%emt 0:00:24]} h6 {[%emt 0:02:35]
} 11. Bh4 {[%emt 0:00:35]} dxe5 {[%emt 0:00:39]} 12. fxe5 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Nfd7
{[%emt 0:00:02]} 13. Ne4 {[%emt 0:00:41]} Qxa2 {[%emt 0:00:09]} 14. Rd1 {
[%emt 0:00:04]} Qd5 {[%emt 0:00:33]} 15. Qe3 {[%emt 0:00:19]} Qxe5 {
[%emt 0:00:44]} 16. Be2 {[%emt 0:00:18]} Bc5 {[%emt 0:00:35]} 17. Bg3 {
[%emt 0:00:11]} Bxd4 {[%emt 0:00:50]} 18. Rxd4 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qa5+ {
[%emt 0:00:02]} 19. Rd2 {[%emt 0:00:14]} O-O {[%emt 0:00:02]} 20. Bd6 {
[%emt 0:00:24]} Rd8 {[%emt 0:17:07]} 21. Qg3 {[%emt 0:01:53]} Qf5 {
[%emt 0:00:03]} 22. Be5 {[%emt 0:01:18]} Qg6 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 23. Qh4 {
[%emt 0:00:21]} Nc6 {[%emt 0:00:10]} 24. Bh5 {[%emt 0:00:23]} Qf5 {
[%emt 0:02:37]} 25. Bxg7 {[%emt 0:00:14]} Nc5 {[%emt 0:00:10]} 26. Nxc5 {
[%emt 0:00:22]} Kxg7 {[%emt 0:01:24]} 27. Rf1 {[%emt 0:00:24]} Qe5+ {
[%emt 0:00:03]} 28. Ne4 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qa1+ {[%emt 0:00:14]} 29. Rd1 {
[%emt 0:00:24]} Rxd1+ {[%emt 0:00:05]} 30. Bxd1 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qe5 {
[%emt 0:00:04]} 31. Rf6 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Bd7 {[%emt 0:03:03]} 32. Qxh6+ {
[%emt 0:00:54]} Kg8 {[%emt 0:00:01]} 33. Rf4 {[%emt 0:00:10]} f5 {
[%emt 0:05:10]} 34. Rh4 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Rd8 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 35. Rh3 {
[%emt 0:00:02]} Qxe4+ {[%emt 0:00:12]} 36. Kf1 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qe5 {
[%emt 0:00:18]} 37. Rg3+ {[%emt 0:00:03]} Qxg3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} 38. hxg3 {
[%emt 0:00:02]} Be8 {[%emt 0:03:02]} 39. Bf3 {[%emt 0:09:29]} Rd6 {
[%emt 0:01:48]} 40. g4 {[%emt 0:00:49]} fxg4 {[%emt 0:03:19]} 41. Be4 {
[%emt 0:11:10]} Rd7 {[%emt 0:00:05]} 42. Qxe6+ {[%emt 0:00:04]} Kf8 {
[%emt 0:00:01]} 43. Qxg4 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Rf7+ {[%emt 0:00:01]} 44. Kg1 {
[%emt 0:06:18]} a5 {[%emt 0:00:04]} 45. Qg5 {[%emt 0:01:05]} Rd7 {
[%emt 0:03:28]} 46. g4 {[%emt 0:02:22]} Rd6 {[%emt 0:03:07]} 47. Qf5+ {
[%emt 0:02:11]} Ke7 {[%emt 0:01:11]} 48. Qh7+ {[%emt 0:00:43]} Kf8 {
[%emt 0:00:02]} 49. Qxb7 {[%emt 0:00:28]} Ne7 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 50. g5 {
[%emt 0:03:18]} a4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 51. Qb4 {[%emt 0:01:44]} Re6 {
[%emt 0:00:02]} 52. Bd3 {[%emt 0:00:11]} Bf7 {[%emt 0:01:51]} 53. Qxa4 {
[%emt 0:00:26]} Rc6 {[%emt 0:02:34]} 54. Qd4 {[%emt 0:00:27]} Be8 {
[%emt 0:01:07]} 55. Qh8+ {[%emt 0:03:07]} Ng8 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 56. Bh7 {
[%emt 0:00:33]} Bf7 {[%emt 0:00:02]} 57. g6 {Engineer Ñäàåòñÿ [%emt 0:00:02]}
1-0
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 22:31
21...Qf5?! is a bad move here, as it definitely loses.  It is possible that 21...f5!? holds the fortress a bit longer, and maybe even draws.
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-28 18:00
Looks like a real refutation of 20...Rfd8 too me! Maybee 21...f5 would save the day for black, but I doubt that black really can hold on.
Parent - - By Xaggard (**) Date 2007-06-29 08:15
[Event "T-1048"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.06.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "WildCat"]
[Black "Xaggard"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B97"]
[PlyCount "101"]
[EventDate "2007.06.21"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2
Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 dxe5 11. fxe5 Nfd7 12. Ne4 h6 13. Bh4 Qxa2 14. Rd1 Qd5
15. Qe3 Qxe5 16. Be2 Bc5 17. Bg3 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5+ 19. Rd2 O-O 20. Bd6 Re8?!
rnb1r1k1/1p1n1pp1/p2Bp2p/q7/4N3/4Q3/2PRB1PP/4K2R w K - 0 21

21. O-O Nc6 22. Qg3 Ne7 23. Bc7 b6 24. Rxd7 Bxd7 25. Nf6+ Kh8 26. Nxd7 f6 27. Bxb6
Qa4 28. Qd6 Nd5 29. c4 Qc2 30. Bh5 Qxc4 31. Bxe8 Rxe8 32. h3 e5 33. Rd1 Nxb6
34. Qxb6 Qc2 35. Qb1 Qc7 36. Qc1 Rc8 37. Qxc7 Rxc7 38. Rd5 a5 39. Nc5 Ra7 40.
Na4 Kh7 41. Kf2 Kg6 42. Kf3 Kg5 43. Ke4 Kh4 44. Kf5 Kg3 45. Rd2 Rc7 46. Nb6 Rc6
47. Nd5 Rc4 48. Rd3+ Kf2 49. Rb3 a4 50. Rb2+ Kg3 51. Rb7 1/2-1/2

I have played corr chess game with 20...Re8. As you can see the game ended at a draw.
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-06-30 10:30
I suspect you would have a lot more trouble after 21.Qg3! I think its very difficult for black (impossible?) to hold on after that move.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-06-30 23:41
Does that not eventually transpose into the game?  To keep the attack going, white eventually needs to castle kingside, something we see in these games, and we have, of course, seen the danger of the possibility of a rook sacrifice on f7.
Parent - - By Torstein (*) Date 2007-07-01 01:54
Take a look at the first game in this tread, a pretty and convincing win for white.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2007-07-01 03:06
I am, of course, assuming that someone doesn't do something as foolish as taking the knight :-)

This is now probably the most well-known game with this line (I don't count the Junior-Fritz game, as I doubt that has been analyzed as accurately, extensively or as well in general as this game, even though more people might be aware of it).
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Rybka - Shredder Where did black go wrong?

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