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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / R3+ release or a direct R4 now?
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- - By Maitra (**) Date 2009-10-02 16:30
Hi All- We are in Oct now and still no news of R3+ or R4. I remember that someone in the forum told that R3+ might release in Sep. anyway thats over . Actually,since now its already so late ,it might be better now that Vas doesn't release R3+ now(if it isn't ready already) and focus on releasing R4 maybe a little ahead of schedule (hope it will still release this year). becos only a handful of people will be interested in R3+ if R4 will release soon after it. I know that there will be lot of arguments to what I'm saying but since now F12 is out  its better we get R4 asap. Let me know what you guys think on this.
Parent - By Michael Hart (***) Date 2009-10-02 17:02
We should all be interested in R3+ if only for the bugs that it will help Vas catch and fix.  I would much prefer that to using a buggy Rybka 4 for maybe two years,  especially when the R3+ is only a half days work detour, according to Vas.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-02 18:00
Not releasing R3+ just means that the bug testing will be private, it doesn't speed up the release of R4 (other than making sure R3+ is at the strength of R3.)
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) Date 2009-10-02 18:04
Which means there will be plenty of unfound bugs!
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-02 18:30
Yes, I think the release of Rybka 3+ is more a service to future Rybka 4 customers than it is a service to Rybka 3 customers.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2009-10-06 09:13
i'm glad you're finally getting the point of R3+ vytron :)
Parent - - By Maitra (**) Date 2009-10-02 19:11
Hi- Agreed but the main question is when. My only intention in opening this topic was that a R3+ release shouldn't delay new R4. Since the gap between R3+ and R4 will be quite small, most people would want to play it against F12 or other  engines which may release ths year than a R3+(which is R3 strength).
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-02 19:33

> Agreed but the main question is when.


It's not like there's a release date they don't want to tell you about, it's that no release date exists, so nobody knows. Or a date exist but they have no idea if they can match it, telling you about it and then angering you because they couldn't release it at that time would be worse than no date at all.

Fritz 12 or Deep Fritz 12 are no threat, Rybka 3 can take care of them (I predict that DF12 will be weaker than R3 by 40 elo or more.)
Parent - - By Leto (***) Date 2009-10-02 20:50
I think you are highly overestimating Deep Fritz 12.  From the match results I've seen thus far it seems Fritz 12 is only 20 to 40 elo stronger than Fritz 11.  Deep Fritz 11 4CPU is about 170 elo weaker than Rybka 3 x64 4CPU, so even if it were 40 elo stronger than Fritz 11 it would still be 130 elo weaker than Rybka 3 x64 4CPU.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 01:59
I was just giving a best case scenario for Deep Fritz 12, that it couldn't be less than 40 elo weaker than Rybka 3, though of course the difference will probably be much higher.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 14:06

> I predict that DF12 will be weaker than R3 by 40 elo or more.


MUCH more (at least, extrapolating from current tests of Fritz 12, which is only a slightly stronger incremental update from Fritz 11, it seems). :-)  Try 140 elo.  If you want it down near 40 elo, you're probably going to have to wait for Deep Fritz 14.  By then, we'll be talking about bugfixes for Rybka 5 and waiting for Rybka 6.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2009-10-03 15:46
I think that we cannot extrapolate from Fritz12 about Deep Fritz12
Deep Fritz12 may be clearly a different engine.

I am not sure if the word Deep is only about using more than one processor and not also about a better engine.

I believe that Deep Fritz12 is going to be weaker than Rybka3 but I believe that the same is correct for every non rybka engine in the next year.

I think that the more interesting question is if deep fritz12 is going to be stronger than free source code programs like stockfish of the same time.

Uri
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 18:37
I'm extrapolating Deep Fritz 12 from Deep Fritz 11 via Fritz 12 from Fritz 11.  That has worked fairly well before in versions 10 and 11.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 18:48
I just was setting an upper bound, setting it at 140 elo would be too risky.
Parent - By Geomusic (*****) Date 2009-10-06 09:15
lol TJ and I agree for once...
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2009-10-02 18:40
R4; R3+-4(or R-1 whichever you prefer to write) is of very little value to me.
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-03 07:43
:lol: your opinion is of very little value to me and many others :lol:
Parent - - By apollox (***) Date 2009-10-02 19:21
I can't even be bothered looking at the calendar as far as the new version is concerned. However, it would be nice to know what Vas and the team are looking at. For example, what do they think will impress us about the next Rybka?
Parent - By Maitra (**) Date 2009-10-07 15:50
well if Rybka 4 does finally release this year, I think it could be around 50-60 elo stronger than R3. this is just a moderate guess as we still dont know what are the improvements in R4 and elo strength gained as a result of the bug fixes. When R3 released Larry had specifically shared some of its results against other engines and those were indeed incredible. Now everybody's gone quiet which I fail to understand. very strange!
Parent - - By garyf919 (**) Date 2009-10-02 22:51
I can't understand why Vas would leave his loyal customers and fans in the dark about his plans for R3+ and R4 either! He may be the best chess programmer that ever lived, but he also may be the worst business man that ever lived at the same time. I personally think it's some of both, but favoring the bad business man! Maybe he wants
Microsoft and Chessbase to release their products before his, so they can steal away money and market share from his product Rybka (WIN 7 and Fritz). He is losing market share from people that may be strapped due to the bad economy as we speak. Or maybe not. I don't know what he's really thinking, but it's not in the best interest of his customers. He may think he's doing the right thing, but I think he should should go on the show "Shark Tank" on ABC. He would get a new perspective of how business is really done! And they would probably tell him to go home and forget about doing Chess programming for a business. I personally think this is just a hobby job for him.
Remember Anthony Cozzi could have given him a run for his money at chess programming, if he chose to, but it was just a hobby for him too.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 02:51
I don't think that's fair.  We have to assume that Vas is rational and highly intelligent.  I am sure there are good reasons for the status quo, though frankly I cannot even begin to speculate what they are.  It is very striking how silent he has been for almost two months now (!) compared to how loquacious he was in the early days.  I get the idea that he is now at such a rarified level of chess programming that the rest of us can offer him nothing, other than a big drag on his time.  Either that, or he's suffering some kind of mental breakdown...which we all know is how intensive chess programming ends!  :)

I personally think the 3+ idea is going to be abandoned.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) Date 2009-10-03 06:33
Agree, I do not expect to see 3+ any longer.

If Vas is following the laws of commerce he is getting ready for a X-mas release.
Parent - By Maitra (**) Date 2009-10-03 07:52

>I personally think the 3+ idea is going to be abandoned


I think so too and plus the fact that R3+ release now will be of academic interest only and Vas should concentrate in beta-testing R4(if its in that stage already) and releasing it soon. About Vas's prolonged hiatus,well maybe he was busy working on his cluster which perhaps he plans to release sometime next year other than that no one really has a clue. I'd assume that R4 will come as soon as Chessbase has got all the profits from releasing F12.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-03 08:21

>or he's suffering some kind of mental breakdown...


I know that this is not the case :)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 11:38
Yes, but how do we know you are not suffering a similar mental breakdown and are thus unable to render reliable judgments, Doktor?  :)
Parent - By Akbarfan (***) Date 2009-10-03 12:04
Do not annoy the Doctor. :-) :-) :-)
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-18 22:04
As long as I don't write "Forward, Mr. Putin" into my signature you know that I'm sane. But what when I choose "Forward, Mr. Obama" ? :lol:
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-18 22:09
+1! :-) :-)
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-19 02:41
Then you need to be put in prison.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-19 14:56
Mr. Obama has quickly taken us to the edge of the abyss and you want him to go forward? Nice guy! :-D
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-19 20:52
As long as you don't follow him - what's your problem? :lol:
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-19 23:24
Alas, he is the Commander-in-Chief and we are just soldiers here following the exalted one's orders.  The good news is that come 2012 we will be so broke there won't even be stale crusts of bread to fight over.  Thank goodness for computer chess.  If I didn't have that I might have to watch the nightly news.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-10-03 14:11
Thank you; I was about to say, "Wait a second, we know that Lukas has been posting analysis from "strange and different" versions of Rybka lately, so they're obviously in communication." :-)
Parent - - By Steffelino (**) Date 2009-10-18 12:56
Do you also know if the Rybka 3+ will be realeased or not?
Please a hint!
Thank´s!
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-18 14:32
No, I don't know this - but I hope it won't.
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-10-18 16:16
Hi Lukas,

I dont care anymore about Rybka 3+ but I am wondering why you prefer it not to come out ?

regards

PS : Well done in Leiden !
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2009-10-18 16:17
It would cost Vas some time - which he should better invest in Rybka 4 ( or5 ;) )
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-10-18 17:08
I agree on this.  :-)

To be honnest, I was expecting to have a Rybka 3 with the fix at the beginning but now it has been just to long to wait and as version 4 is not far from us, I just dont care anymore.
It was even worse when I heard that he would not correct the "bugs" from R3 but just weaken R4 to have a R3+ same strengh than R3. Is respect the fabulous work Vas does but this is just no interest to me.

regards
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-18 17:18
OK, but you'll be singing a different tune in January when Rybka 4 bugs have been identified!
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-10-18 18:50
The concept of R3+ being a beta test release for finding R4 bugs seems to be too difficult for the masses to grasp. When it comes to software development, the past is prologue. Without R3+, we will have a new batch of bugs that will probably be about the same magnitude as the R3 bugs. And once again, there will be no bug-fix release until R5 which will fix most of R4's bugs and introduce a new batch of critters.
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-18 22:06

>... seems to be too difficult for the masses to grasp.


You speak about the unwashed, knuckle-dragging masses?
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-10-18 19:04
about which part of my message ?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-18 19:42
You don't care anymore about R3 bugs and just want R4.  When R4 comes out, with bugs, you'll want those fixed right away.  No?
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-10-18 20:16
Yes sure and ?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-10-18 20:32
...and they won't be fixed!  And then when Rybka 5 is about to be released you'll say the same thing, "all I care about is Rybka 5"!
Parent - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-10-18 20:50
Yes sure !
If the history repeats, I will also.
I will be consitant with myself. ;-)
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-10-18 16:16
Bah ... you have your toy already! :-)

I´m very interested in R3+. Same playing strength like R3 doesn´t matter, playing style will be quite different!
Parent - - By Steffelino (**) Date 2009-10-18 17:36
Ok thx for info!
Is it possible to skip Rybka 3+?
Vas had that as a promise for Rybka 3 customers!
But if Rybka 4 is out who cares then?
Parent - By RobL (*) Date 2009-10-18 21:13
If I buy software from someone and he promisses a bug fix R3+version , I suspect to get it.
R 4 is another programm. I will see if I buy that.
Everyone in this forum seems to be his friend, but I don't know  him. I hope he keeps his promiss.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-10-19 05:08

> But if Rybka 4 is out who cares then?


Check these two stories:

Rybka 4 is released with tons of bugs.

Rybka 4 is released with fewer bugs.

I'd like to live in the latter world, but many bugs will go unnoticed without a R3+ release.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / R3+ release or a direct R4 now?
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