Not logged inRybka Chess Community Forum
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / can rybka solve it?
1 2 Previous Next  
- - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-18 05:51
or can you?
white to move and win
3k4/p1pq3p/1p5R/4P3/P6P/2PN4/1PN3K1/8 w - - 0 1
Parent - - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-19 23:55
anyone solve this please
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-09-19 23:59
lol is this from a game of yours??
Parent - - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-20 10:21
no, this is a study of someone.. it should work.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-09-20 23:44
Please, a little bit more information! :-)
Author and date of publication is the least! Very best would be a wellknown author and date < 2000! :-)

PS: What´s the heck is Nd3 good for? :-) Ensnarement or only a bad study?
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-20 23:46

> What´s the heck is Nd3 good for?


Find the best continuation and you will understand :wink:
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-09-21 00:36
I believe, I found it already! :-)
It´s a nice study, because the engines don´t understand it! But to show it´s a win for white is hard work I fear (because the engines don´t understand the study and without engine I feel helpless! :-))!
Parent - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-21 00:48
yeah its hard to find the right moves for black if it doesnt understand whites plan
Parent - By vdragan (***) Date 2009-09-20 01:30
My friend...I do not know if this can be win at all.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-20 23:05
I was testing the new IDeA in a beta version of Aquarium and gave this position to Rybka 3 1-cpu. It came up with an amazing position where the queen was helplessly out of the game. After that the real fight starts and the question becomes: Must White accept a draw or can he win? If you are a strong player or a good engine analyst, you will enjoy this challenge!
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-09-20 23:48

>It came up with an amazing position where the queen was helplessly out of the game.


Is Nd3 still on board? :-)
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2009-09-21 00:16
I like this position after 1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kd7 (black hasn´t good moves?; I can´t see good moves with the pawns) 4. Nde6

8/p1pk3p/1p2N2q/4P3/P4N1P/2P4K/1P6/8 b - - 0 4


Do you have a better position for white? Black can´t move the Queen (and pawn h7) and after h5! white King can go to a long journey! :-)

PS: Indeed, very nice study! :-)
Parent - - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-21 00:36 Edited 2009-09-21 00:40
yes! that could be it.. just play h5 to be able to move the king and the queen is trapped.. just now find a way to win

rybka just cant see it until its totally over..just attack the right way on kingside
Parent - - By SpiderG (***) Date 2009-09-21 02:35
Yes, it seems to me black cant play Qxe6 because after everything is over, black can win with his a-pawn... I'm just interested to see with blacks queen trapped he is really losing, and if there is a win for white... hopefully someone'll figure it out!
Parent - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-22 04:33
look my last post
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-21 08:30

> white King can go to a long journey!


The question is if the White king's long journey will result in a win or draw.
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-09-21 04:53
hmm, new IDeA must be a helluva lot better than the old one then, because this is what i get after an hour (3 CPU) --

Parent - - By SpiderG (***) Date 2009-09-21 20:00
Very nice test!! After analyzing with Stockfish 1.4 he easily finds a win for white...but only AFTER i show him how to trap the queen! I also analyzed with Rybka 2.3.2a (btw, this was done on my x32 2 CPU computer) it just doesn't seem to be as tactical as Stockfish...(Stockfish though Kf3 for 7 1/2 hours... chess engines can improve much still!
Parent - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-09-21 20:04
stockfish found a win?? if so he did better than rybka. she saw a draw after at least an hour of analysis last night (from roland's position or maybe after h5, cant remember) can you post the line?
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-21 20:35

> easily finds a win for white...but only AFTER i show him how to trap the queen!


What position exactly are you talking about? It would be very interesting if you are talking about the position after 3.Nf4. After that Black has many different routes to choose, although the main question is what pawn structure he chooses to defend on the queenside.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-21 21:07 Edited 2009-09-21 21:11
Yace Paderborn proved a win(for white) for this positions:
8/p2k3p/1pp1N2q/4P2P/PP2KN2/2P5/8/8 b - - 0 9

8/4k2p/1pp1N2q/p3P3/PP3NKP/2P5/8/8 w - a6 0 7

8/p2k3p/2p1N2q/1p2P3/PP3N1P/2P4K/8/8 w - - 0 6


It took a while(a lot) but it was worth it. Some moves(2) that Rybka 3 and Shredder 10 never considered as best and it seemed position was draw, Yace shined and showed the win!

Now what is left is only some 20-30 more such positions to prove it's a draw. Unfortunately i have stopped my retrograde analysis of Yace so it lost all information and i don't have the desire to repeat it.
Perhaps Vasik can study Yace's amazing retrograde analysis capabilities in order to include them on Rybka 4. It's handy.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-21 21:13
Interesting. I think the a7, b6, c6 pawn structure is good for Black, but it seemed to me that any further pawn moves (such as a7-a5) make White's task easier.
Parent - - By Akbarfan (***) Date 2009-09-21 21:33
The solution (and the source of Study) is probably very secret?  :-)

1.Nd4 Qg7+ 2.Kh3 Qxh6 3.Nf4 Kd7 4.Nde6 c6 5.Kg4 Kc8 6.h5 Kb7 7.Kf5 Ka6 8.Ke4 Ka5 9.b3 Ka6 is anyway remis.
(analyzing with Stockfish 1.4, no win at all.)
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-22 07:19

>1.Nd4 Qg7+ 2.Kh3 Qxh6 3.Nf4 Kd7 4.Nde6 c6 5.Kg4 Kc8 6.h5 Kb7 7.Kf5 Ka6 8.Ke4 Ka5 9.b3 Ka6 is anyway remis.


8/p6p/kpp1N2q/4P2P/P3KN2/1PP5/8/8 w - - 0 10

I have analyzed it with Yace Paderborn and in (almost-i have to do 2 more variations) all cases it found a win.

The key is positions like:
8/1k5p/ppp1N2q/4P2P/PPPK1N2/8/8/8 b - - 0 12

where white has to create and then play b5!
Before that black can't afford a weakening move like c5 or b5 where it loses immediately.
The key to all these is that Knight controls c7 so white can outplay black in a 3P Vs 3P situation.
Parent - By MoKy (**) Date 2009-09-22 00:10 Edited 2009-09-22 00:21
It is hard to defend against plan Kh3>d4, Pb2>b4, Pc3>c4 and Pb4>b5. That makes a path through d5 to the weak pawn on a7.
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2009-09-21 21:45
I've had IDeA running 20 hours from this position and it only has an eval of -.37 for c5.

8/p2k3p/1pp1N2q/4P2P/P4N2/2P4K/1P6/8 b - -
Parent - By Mark (****) Date 2009-09-21 23:45
22 hours now and 7 moves are tied at 0.00.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-22 00:04

> Yace shined and showed the win!


Did you save some of the winning variations?
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-22 07:21
I do but it's a real mess right now. When i will analyze some more variations and clean things up a bit by removing unnecessary moves i will post them.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-22 00:03

> After analyzing with Stockfish 1.4 he easily finds a win for white...but only AFTER i show him how to trap the queen!


I showed Stockfish how to trap the queen and it didn't find a win at all -- even at depth 35. Instead it sees the position as equal. We have seen a few claims that this position is won, but still no variations supporting those claims. Is it really won :smile:

2k5/p1p4p/1p2N2q/4P2P/P4N2/2P4K/1P6/8 b - -


[+0.00]  d=35  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.b4 Kb7 6.Kf5 a5 7.bxa5 Ka6 8.axb6 Kxb6 9.Ke4 Ka5 10.Nd4 Qg7 11.Nxc6+ Kxa4 12.Nd4 Ka5 13.e6 Kb6 14.Nf5 Qb7+ 15.Kd4 Qf3 16.Nd5+ Kc6 17.Nde7+ Kb7 18.Nd6+ Kc7 19.Nef5 Qf2+ 20.Kd3 Qf3+ 21.Kd4 (1:57:57) 48950031kN
[-0.40]  d=34  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 (0:28:00) 11491793kN
[-0.60]  d=33  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kg3 Kb8 6.Kf3 Ka8 7.Ke4 Kb7 8.b4 Kc8 9.Kd4 Kd7 10.Ke3 Ke7 11.Ke4 Ke8 12.Nc7+ Kf7 13.Nce6 Ke7 14.Kd4 a6 15.Ke4 Ke8 16.Kf3 Kd7 17.Kg4 c5 18.bxc5 bxc5 19.Nxc5+ Kc7 20.Kf5 Qc6 (0:19:01) 7792941kN
[-0.60]  d=32  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kg3 Kb8 6.Kf3 Ka8 7.Ke4 Kb7 8.b4 Kc8 9.Kd4 Kd7 10.Ke3 Ke7 11.Ke4 Ke8 12.Nc7+ Kf7 13.Nce6 Ke7 14.Kd4 a6 15.Ke4 Ke8 16.Kd4 Kd7 17.Ke4 Kc8 18.Kd3 Kb7 19.Nd8+ Ka8 20.Ke4 (0:12:49) 5241024kN
[-0.60]  d=31  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kg3 Kb8 6.Kf3 Ka8 7.Ke4 Kb7 8.b4 Kc8 9.Kd4 Kd7 10.Ke3 Ke7 11.Ke4 Ke8 12.Nc7+ Kf7 13.Nce6 Ke7 14.Kd4 a6 15.Ke4 Ke8 16.Kd4 Kd7 17.Ke4 Ke7 18.Nd4 Qf8 19.Nxc6+ Kd7 (0:09:56) 4064863kN
[-0.68]  d=30  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 (0:06:02) 2466197kN
[-0.88]  d=29  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf5 Ka5 6.b3 Ka6 7.b4 Kb7 8.Ke4 Kc8 9.c4 Kd7 10.c5 Kc8 11.cxb6 axb6 12.Kd3 Kb8 13.Ke3 Ka8 14.Ke4 Ka7 15.Nd8 c5 16.bxc5 bxc5 17.e6 Qg7 18.Kf5 (0:02:25) 986424kN
[-0.94]  d=28  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf5 Ka5 6.b3 Ka6 7.b4 Kb7 8.Ke4 Kc8 9.c4 Kd7 10.c5 Kc8 11.cxb6 axb6 12.Kf5 Kb8 13.Ke4 Kb7 14.Nd8+ Kc8 15.Nde6 Kd7 16.Kf3 c5 17.bxc5 Kc6 18.cxb6 Kxb6 (0:01:15) 504987kN
[-0.96]  d=27  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf5 Ka5 6.b3 Ka6 7.b4 Kb7 8.Kg4 Kc8 9.Kf5 Kd7 10.Ke4 Ke7 11.Nd4 Ke8 12.Nde6 Kd7 13.Kd4 Kc8 14.Ke4 Kb7 15.Kd4 b5 16.a5 Kb8 (0:00:54) 367171kN
[-1.13]  d=26  3...Kb7 (0:00:44) 295002kN
[-0.92]  d=25  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kf5 Kd7 6.Ke4 Ke8 7.Kf3 Kf7 8.Ke4 Ke7 9.Kf3 b5 10.a5 Kd7 11.Kg4 Kc8 12.Kf3 c5 13.Ke4 c4 14.Kd5 Kb7 15.b3 Ka6 (0:00:22) 147075kN
[-0.92]  d=24  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kf5 Kb8 6.Ke4 a5 7.Kd3 Kc8 8.Ke4 b5 9.b3 Kd7 10.c4 bxc4 11.bxc4 Ke7 12.Kd4 Ke8 13.Kc5 Kd7 14.Kb6 c5 15.Kxc5 (0:00:10) 66736kN
[-0.92]  d=23  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kf5 Kb8 6.Ke4 a5 7.Kd3 Kc8 8.Ke4 b5 9.b3 Kd7 10.c4 bxc4 11.bxc4 Ke7 12.Kd4 Ke8 13.Kc5 Kd7 14.Kb6 c5 15.Kxc5 (0:00:07) 46096kN
[-1.07]  d=22  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Kc8 5.Kf5 Kb8 6.Ke4 a5 7.Nd4 Kc8 8.Nde6 b5 9.axb5 cxb5 10.Ke3 Kb7 11.Ke4 Kb6 12.Nd4 Qg5 13.Nd5+ Kb7 14.Nf4 b4 (0:00:05) 35594kN
[-1.03]  d=21  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf5 Ka5 6.b3 Ka6 7.b4 Kb7 8.b5 cxb5 9.axb5 a5 10.bxa6+ Kxa6 11.Nd4 Qf8+ 12.Ke4 Qg7 13.e6 Kb7 14.Kf5 Qe7 15.Nd5 (0:00:01) 7903kN
[-1.03]  d=20  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf3 b5 6.axb5+ cxb5 7.Ke4 Kb6 8.Nd4 Qg5 9.e6 Kc7 10.Nf5 Kd8 11.Nd5 Qg2+ 12.Ke5 Qh2+ 13.Kd4 Qf2+ 14.Ke5 Qe1+ 15.Kd6 Qe4 (0:00:00) 3466kN
[-1.03]  d=19  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf3 b5 6.axb5+ cxb5 7.Ke4 Kb6 8.Nd4 Qg5 9.e6 Kc7 10.Nf5 Kd8 11.Ke5 Qg1 12.Kf6 Qg4 13.e7+ Kd7 (0:00:00) 2472kN
[-1.05]  d=18  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf3 b5 6.axb5+ cxb5 7.Ke4 Kb6 8.Nd4 Qg5 9.b4 h6 10.Nd5+ Kb7 11.Nf4 a6 12.e6 Kc7 13.Nf5 (0:00:00) 1828kN
[-1.01]  d=17  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf3 b5 6.axb5+ cxb5 7.Ke4 Kb6 8.Nd4 Qg5 9.b4 h6 10.Nd5+ Kb7 11.Nf4 a6 12.e6 Kc7 (0:00:00) 1344kN
[-1.09]  d=16  3...Kb7 4.Kg4 Ka6 5.Kf3 b5 6.axb5+ cxb5 7.Nd4 Kb7 8.e6 Qg5 9.Ke4 Kc7 10.b4 Kd8 11.Nc6+ Ke8 12.Nxa7 (0:00:00) 1099kN
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-09-22 00:22
tis a bit mysterious that the two guys who claim to have found wins have demonstrated nothing...:)

thats rybka & stockfish flatlining. i tried yace for a bit but gave up after a couple mins. i imagine it would have to think overnight if unassisted to demonstrate anything.
Parent - By SpiderG (***) Date 2009-09-22 00:51
Sorry! I wasn't being specific at all! I basically had Stockfish play both sides (I did not just want him to find it after the queen was trapped. I made him play both sides and white got its queen to the left side and won... I dont know if they could find the win without you helping them out a little.. It is definitely a win for white anyhow ;)
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) Date 2009-09-22 00:58
This is beautiful, amazing position. Thanks for posting.

I think Cluster Rybka will have serious problems solving this; maybe Lukas can help and show us what the monster thinks after at least ten or twenty minutes. :-)

Regards,
Gaмßito.
Parent - - By Jonas (****) Date 2009-09-22 04:22 Edited 2009-09-22 04:32
im currently playing a few games with white against rybka with analize mode..trying to refute any ideas rybka comes up with to draw and i have success.

often the trick is not to take on b5 and just ignore it. the c pawn is in most variations winning, so just get blacks c pawn

look at these variations (just copy in you gui):

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Neue Partie"]
[Black "Rybka 3 32-bit 1"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "3k4/p1pq3p/1p5R/4P3/P6P/2PN4/1PN3K1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "51"]

{256MB, Extreme1.0.ctg, JONAS} 1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kc8 4. Nde6 Kd7 5. h5 c5 6. Kg4 Kc6 7. Kf3 b5 8. Ke4 $3 bxa4 (8... b4
9. c4 Kb6 10. Kd5 b3 11. Kd6 Ka5 12. Kxc5 Kxa4 $18) (8... Kb6 9. Kd5 Ka5 (9...
c4 10. axb5 Kxb5 11. Kd4 a5 12. Kd5 a4 13. Kd4 Ka6 14. Kxc4) 10. axb5 Kxb5 11.
b3 a6 12. Kd6 a5 13. Kd5 Kb6 14. c4 Ka6 15. Kxc5 $18) 9. c4 a6 (9... Kb6 10.
Kd5 a6 11. Kd6 Kb7 (11... a5 $2 12. Kd5 Kb7 13. Kxc5 Ka6 $18) (11... a3 12.
bxa3 a5 13. Kd5 $18) 12. Kxc5 $1 $18) 10. Kd3 Kb6 11. Kc2 a3 12. b3 (12. bxa3
$4 Kc6 13. Kb3 a5 14. Ka4 Kb6 15. Kb3 $11) 12... Ka5 13. Kb1 a2+ (13... Kb4 14.
Ka2 Kc3 15. Kxa3 a5 16. Ka4 Kd2 (16... Kc2 17. Kxa5 Kxb3 18. Kb5 $18) 17. Kb5
$3 (17. Kxa5 $4 Ke3 18. Kb5 Ke4 19. Kxc5 Kxe5 20. b4 Qf6) 17... Ke3 18. Kxc5
Ke4 19. Kd6 $14) 14. Kxa2 Kb6 (14... Kb4 15. Kb2 Ka5 16. Kb1 Kb4 17. Ka2 Ka5
18. Ka3 Kb6 19. b4 Kc6 20. bxc5 Kb7 21. Kb4 $18) 15. Ka3 Kc6 16. Ka4 Kb6 17. b4
cxb4 18. Kxb4 Kb7 19. Ka5 Ka7 20. c5 Kb7 21. Kb4 Kc6 22. Ka5 (22. Ka4 {
also wins} Kb7 23. Ka5 Ka7 24. c6 $18) 22... Kb7 23. Ka4 Kc6 24. Kb4 Kb7 25.
Ka5 Ka7 26. c6 *

if black doesnt move its c pawn to the 5th (so u cant get it with the king) just get it with a pawn
like i did here...
1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kd7 4. Nde6 c6 5. Kg4 Ke7 6. h5 Ke8 7. Kf3 Kd7 8. Ke4 Ke7 9. b4 Kd7 10. c4 Kc8 11. b5 Kd7 12. bxc6+ Kxc6 13. Kd4 Kd7 14. Kd5 a6 15. a5 b5 16. cxb5 axb5 17. Kc5 Kc8 18. Kxb5 Kb7

nomather what rybka does.. i aways find a win with white

your engine wants to play something else as black? try to refute it yourself as a centaur you'll see its fun and easy
Parent - - By peterhiarcs (**) Date 2009-09-22 13:03

> 1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kd7 4. Nde6 c6 5. Kg4 Ke7 6. h5 Ke8 7. Kf3 Kd7 8. Ke4 Ke7 9. b4 Kd7 10. c4 Kc8 11. b5 Kd7 12. bxc6+ Kxc6 13. Kd4 Kd7 14. Kd5 a6 15. a5 b5 16. cxb5 axb5 17. Kc5 Kc8 18. Kxb5 Kb7


Hi!
Thanks for the great study but as for your last variant quoted above, how to continue after 13... Kb7 instead of your 13... Kd7?
After 14.Kd5 Ka6 I don't see the win anymore.
Thanks again and thanks in advance
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-22 14:00
Have you tried 14.c5! instead of 14.Kd4?   ?
Parent - By peterhiarcs (**) Date 2009-09-22 18:08
Thank you, but after 14.c5 Kc6 I still stop. Instead I see 14.Kc3 win, with your move afterwards: 14...a6 15.c5!
The point of the problem, next to the great idea of the capturing of the Queen, to me seems to let the zugzwang- theme work for you as for the pawn- moves related to the Kings' ones.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) Date 2009-09-22 13:43

> 1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kd7 4. Nde6 c6 5. Kg4 Ke7 6. h5 Ke8 7. Kf3 Kd7 8. Ke4 Ke7 9. b4 Kd7 10. c4 Kc8 11. b5 Kd7


Good try. How are you going to win after 11..cxb5 instead of 11...Kd7?
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-22 14:10
White should not play 11.b5 but 11.a5 (or maybe even 11.Kd4).
Parent - - By MoKy (**) Date 2009-09-22 14:08
One of the best studies i have ever solved.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "3k4/p1pq3p/1p5R/4P3/P6P/2PN4/1PN3K1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "39"]

1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kd7 4. Nde6 c6 (4... c5 5. Kg4 Kc6 6. b3 $1 (6.
b4 $2 cxb4 7. cxb4 a5 $1 8. bxa5 b5 {!=}) (6. h5 $2 b5 7. a5 c4 $11) 6... b5 7.
a5 $1 b4 8. c4 Kb7 9. Nxc5+ Kc7 10. Nce6+ Kb7 11. h5 Ka6 12. c5 Kxa5 13. c6 Kb6
14. c7 $18) (4... Kc6 5. b4 Kd7 6. Kg4 c5 7. bxc5 bxc5 8. Nxc5+ Kc6 9. Nce6 Kb6
10. c4 Ka5 11. c5 $18) 5. Kg4 Ke7 6. h5 Ke8 7. Kf3 Kd7 8. Ke4 Ke7 9. b4 Kd7 10.
Kd4 (10. c4 $2 Kc8 $1 (10... Ke7 $2 11. Kd4 (11. b5 $2 c5 $2 12. Kd5 Kd7 13. a5
$18) 11... Ke8 12. c5 $1 Kd7 13. Kc4 Kc8 14. b5 Kb7 15. Kb4 cxb5 16. Kxb5 $18)
11. Kd4 (11. a5 Kd7 12. axb6 axb6 13. Kd4 Ke7 14. b5 cxb5 15. cxb5 Ke8 $1 $11)
11... Kb7 $1 12. c5 a5 $1 $11) 10... Kc8 11. Kc4 $1 (11. c4 $2 Kb7 $1 12. b5 (
12. Kd3 Kc8 13. Ke4 Kb8 14. Kd4 Kb7 $1 15. c5 a5 $1 $11) 12... cxb5 13. cxb5
Kc8 14. Kc4 Kd7 15. Kd5 Kc8 $1 16. Kc6 Kb8 17. Kd7 Kb7 $11) 11... Kb8 (11... a6
12. Kd4 Kb8 13. c4 Kb7 14. b5 $1 cxb5 15. cxb5 axb5 16. axb5 Kc8 17. Kc4 $18)
12. b5 Kb7 13. Kb4 cxb5 14. Kxb5 a6+ 15. Kb4 Kc6 16. c4 Kb7 (16... a5+ 17. Kc3
Kd7 18. Kd4 Kc6 19. Ke4 Kd7 20. Kd5 $18) 17. c5 Kc6 18. cxb6 Kxb6 19. a5+ Kc6
20. Kc4 $18 *
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-22 14:15
This is not the solution.
5...Kc8 is the main move, with the plan of having the King near the Queenside for defending it, and is not covered on your analysis.
Parent - By MoKy (**) Date 2009-09-22 14:50
Main idea is 5... Kc8 6. h5 Kb7 7. Kf3 Ka6 8. b4 Kb7 9.Ke4 Ka6 10. Kd3 Kb7 11. Kd4 Ka6 12. Kc4 Kb7 13. b5 a5 $1 14. bxc6+ Kxc6 15. Kd4 b5 16. axb5+ Kxb5 17. c4+ Kb4 18. c5 a4 19. Kd3 Kb3 20. c6 a3 21. c7 a2 22.c8=Q a1=Q 23. Qb7+ Ka3 24. Qa6+ Kb2 25. Qb5+ Ka3 26. Qa5+ Kb2 27. Qb4+ Ka2 28.Kc2
Parent - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2009-09-22 14:42
I just found a huge transposition with 5...Kc8 that leads to a position you have in your main variation and it's the opposite side to move!! But after a sequence of forced moves we direct to another transposition where it leads to your main variation.
So there were 2 lines i couldn't find a win for white with 5...Kc8, but now thanks to your analysis i erased one. :-)
Parent - By buffos (Silver) Date 2009-09-23 06:13
extremely detailed and nice solve of the study (does anyone know whos that study?)

i dont think that any engine (or IDEA could solve it). At least not while an engine understands that the 2NvQ in this positions are mutually immobilized.
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2009-09-23 06:42
I have a question

How does white win, if Black puts his King to b7 and DOES NOT push his pawn to c6. The black has Kb7-b8 or c8-b8 (if the king goes to c6).

8/pkp4p/1p2N2q/3KP2P/P4N2/2P5/1P6/8 w - -


Do you see any break? At first sight (and second) i don't. The pawn at c7 keeps both b6 and d6 under control, and i dont see an pawn push that can win for white. Just draw.

Anyone with a clue?
Parent - - By MoKy (**) Date 2009-09-23 09:18
I try without chessboard: h5, K>c6, b4, a5, a6, b5, c5, Kxc5, 3angel, Kc6, Kd7
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) Date 2009-09-23 09:21
i wont let you play a pawn at a6. i ll just move a6 my self ( i cannot let you have both b7 and d7 under control)
Parent - By MoKy (**) Date 2009-09-23 09:48
c-pawn falls anyway
Kc6-Kb8 b4-a6 c4-Kc8 a5-bxa5 bxa5-Kb8 Kd7-Kb7 c5
Parent - - By peterhiarcs (**) Date 2009-09-24 04:56
Here's one more variant, I don't see the sequel. It's from your PV, instead of 11... a3, 11... Ka5.

1. Nd4 Qg7+ 2. Kh3 Qxh6 3. Nf4 Kc8 4. Nde6 Kd7 5. h5 c5 6. Kg4 Kc6 7. Kf3 b5 8.
Ke4 bxa4 9. c4 a6 10. Kd3 Kb6 11. Kc2 Ka5

By the way, do you know the author of the study? Where have you found it?
Parent - - By MoKy (**) Date 2009-09-24 10:16
Good point, 7.Kf3 is mistake as well 7.b4. White has only winning move 7.b3!

7.Kf3? b5! 8.a5 (8.Ke4 bxa4! 9.c4 a6! =) 8... c4! 9.Ke4 Kb7 10.Nc5+! =

7.b4? axb4 8.cxb4 a5! (8... Kb7? 9.Kf3 +-) 9.b5+ (9.bxa5 b5! or Kb7 =) 9... Kd7! 10.Kf5 Ke7 11.Ke4 Ke8! 12.Kd5 Kd7! =

7.b3! a5 (7... b5 8.a5! b4 9.c4! Kb7 10.Nxc5+ +-) 8.Kf3 b5 9.Ke4 (9.c4! bxa4 10.bxa4 Kb6 11.Ke3 Kb7 12.Nxc5+ +-) 9... c4 10.bxc4! bxa4 11.Kd3 Kd6 12.c5! (12.Kc2? Dxe6! =) 12... Kc6 13.c4 +-
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / can rybka solve it?
1 2 Previous Next  

Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill