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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Deleted Vs. Vytron (DPA Vs. IA) 1/2 - 1/2
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- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-07 12:31 Edited 2009-08-12 05:28
1. b3 d5 2. Bb2 Nf6 3. e3 Bf5 4. f4 e6 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. Nh4 O-O 7. Be2 Be4 8. d3 Bf5 9. O-O h6 10. c4 c6 11. Nxf5 exf5 12. Be5 Re8 13. d4 Ne4 14. Qc1 Nd7 15. Nc3 Ndf6 16. Bf3 Bf8 17. a3 Qd7 18. Bxf6 Nxf6 19. Re1 Rad8 20. c5 Re6 21. Ra2 b6 22. b4 Qb7 23. Nd1 Rde8 24. Rc2 Be7 25. Nf2 bxc5 26. bxc5 Bd8
{Draw agreed.} 1/2 - 1/2

24h/move as a guideline but overstepping time limit doesn't mean time forfeit.

Deleted is restricted to only Rybka 3 under Deep Position Analysis for 30 minutes.

Vytron is restricted to only Rybka 3's Infinite Analysis for 46 minutes 20 seconds.

(we're free to play with Rybka parameters, etc.)

Deleted will be using a DPA optimized book so this experiment will be interesting.

Your move, good luck!
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-07 12:36
Shocker!

1.b3
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2009-07-07 12:49
1.b3? You call that optimized? :yell:
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-07 12:51
Sure! Optimized for a quiet game where DPA will not be outsearched (I hope).
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) [us] Date 2009-07-07 12:55
Has white ever won with b3? :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-07 12:58
Alan is #1 world expert in 1.b3, I wish I was having as much fun as Vempele instead of being afraid of, you know, giving him a book-win. I'm glad this will only last 10 halfmoves...
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-07 12:59
Ye of little faith... Just watch the game!
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) [us] Date 2009-07-07 13:06 Edited 2009-07-07 13:09
The "book" here is Nf3, in both Aquarium/Rybka and other master game d/b, but there a few games out there where white wins with g3 and c4.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2009-07-08 00:59
The book here is what Alan plays, and that is probably going to be f4.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 01:14
Lol, you knew what I was going to play before I did. I looked carefully at 4.Nf3, 4.d4, and 4.c4. Each of these moves had a much higher probability of leaving me hanging off a cliff on move 11 in positions not navigable with 30 minutes of Rybka DPA. But 4.f4 can lead to interesting positions, so all is not lost.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2009-07-08 01:58

> you knew what I was going to play before I did


Exactly why we're so good.  (Anyway that's what I want people to think so they'll freak out and play some really stupid variation that leads them straight into a lost position.)

I just looked at your most recent games and saw you've been toying with f4 with reasonably good results.  Combined with your prep, and the opponent's lack of prep in this kind of rare line, it just made good sense.  I see six playable black moves now and a seventh just outside my acceptable range.  I won't say what black move I'd make but my general strategy here, with so many near-equal choices, would be to drive you out of book quickly.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2009-07-09 23:24
Where do you find his latest games?
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2009-07-09 23:56
;)  In my database.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2009-07-07 19:41
Throttle him Alan. :)
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) [us] Date 2009-07-08 00:09
Deleted is Alan, otherwise known as the B3 expert?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2009-07-08 00:51
Alan Sassler = Alan = Deleted.  Notorious Las Vegas socialite and man about town.  Well known in DoD circles.  Featured in Dos Equis "Most Interesting Man in the World" commercials.  Look for the upcoming Playboy interview and feature in the Washington Post Style section.  Alan is the only guy in this forum that exceeds Vas in terms of coolness.  He's so cool he can play 1.b3 and not sweat it, and believe me, that is cooler than the South Pole.
Parent - - By Jonas (****) [at] Date 2009-07-08 01:15
i thought of giving a comment but couldnt decide whichone:
- will he keep cool after reading that?
- you know... i prefer women. but thanks anyway.
- hey guys, i can play 2.b3 and not sweat it.
- wheres information about his opponent?
- what is DoD?
- why was he deleted then? too bad.

so i just posted them all ;P
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2009-07-08 01:47
DoD = Department of Defense.  The Pentagon. 
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-08 16:29

> - wheres information about his opponent?


Nowhere, I AM top secret information :smile:

> - why was he deleted then? too bad.


Nobody knows, he deleted himself! (and could undelete himself if he wanted, by changing his name back to Alan, so it looks like he wants to remain Deleted.)
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-08 18:35
Heck, if he changed back to Alan everybody would take a week or so to used to the new nick!  :confused:
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) [us] Date 2009-07-08 01:50
I'll assume this is an inside joke. Personally, I've have never heard of him, but I am interested in his comments on DPA.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2009-07-08 06:48

> I'll assume this is an inside joke.


Keep a close look at his posts :)
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2009-07-08 06:49

> I'll assume this is an inside joke.


Keep a close look at his (Alan's) posts :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-07 12:46
Now, this is interesting, if DPA wins it could mean that it's a sound automated analysis method if you are well prepared on your variation (and I know you are...)

1...d5
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-07 12:51
2.Bb2
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-07 12:56
2...Nf6
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-07 13:09
Decision point 1:

3.e3

(This leads to more closed positions than 3.g3, 3.Nf3, or 3.f4)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-07 13:49
3...Bf5
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 01:09
OK, I had an unforeseen problem.  Normally, I would play Nf3 here. But this leads to a slow development game where I will be in a precarious position when I start DPA on move 11. I tested to see how Rybka would handle some possible positions with 30 minutes of DPA, and the results were disturbing. To avoid this fate, I've decided to play:

4.f4

This will certainly not lead to the closed position that I was looking for, but it forces the important opening choices into the first 10 moves (I hope). Kudos to Vytron if he played 1...d5 to minimize the impact of a short opening book. On the bright side, the selected move should be more likely to provide a decisive result, one way or the other.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-08 16:35

> But this leads to a slow development game where I will be in a precarious position when I start DPA on move 11.


I think we had a misunderstanding, I proposed to remain on book for 10 halfmoves (5 moves), not 10 moves, just like in the canceled v titanium cranium game.

But I should certainly say that I don't have enough theory on this position to rely on it, that would put me out of book, so what do we do? Do I turn on the engine already? Do I use interactive IA until move 10? Do you just pick black moves until move 10? (this being more an experiment than competition, I'd trust you'd pick black's best moves) Something else?
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 16:49
OK, my fault. We can start the experiment on move 6, per your original plan. Normally white would be looking at either mounting a kingside pawn storm, weakening black's queenside pawn structure, or opening and controlling the f file. I suspect that Rybka will choose none of the above, but it should be amusing and maybe enlightening anyway.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2009-07-08 16:56
There are at least a half-dozen equally good moves right here.  I wouldn't lead you astray, you don't need theory right now, though if you must have something to go on try seeing if you can transpose into a better-theorized line.  Play a move and see what happens.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-08 17:43

> There are at least a half-dozen equally good moves right here.


Ok, thanks.
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) [us] Date 2009-07-08 01:29
sorry for the ignorant question, but what is 'deep position analysis'? ie what IDeA used to be known as? or the chessbase feature? i'm confused. seems like an interesting experiment at any rate.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 01:33
DPA is a Chessbase tree search option where you get to choose the branching factor in the first four plies, a pruning evaluation, the length of variations, and a few other things. It results in a tree that's wider and not as deep.
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) [us] Date 2009-07-08 01:53 Edited 2009-07-08 01:57
Then, shouldn't it be called Wide Position Analysis? Who's program is it?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 04:03
It is implemented in every Chessbase GUI since F7 (maybe earlier). Wide Position Analysis doesn't get the bull off the ice.
Parent - By InspectorGadget (*****) [za] Date 2009-07-08 07:43

> Wide Position Analysis doesn't get the bull off the ice.


:-D
Parent - - By titanium cranium (***) [us] Date 2009-07-08 12:30
Wide Position Analysis doesn't get the bull off the ice, means?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 14:51
When you analyze with Chessbase products in verbose mode, your games are annotated with this kind of useful information.
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-08 18:37

> When you analyze with Chessbase products in verbose mode, your games are annotated with this kind of useful information.


Except that it still doesn't tell you what the heck it means!  :lol:
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-08 18:37
Especially for a non-English speaker! :yell:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-08 18:42
I thought it was an idiom but after searching on Google... it only shows instances of Chessbase or related saying it...
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-08 19:01
Yea, I did a little searching but never could really fiqure it out either. I've heard of cows pissing on flat rocks, etc, etc, but the bull on ice escapes me. Maybe I don't have a good enough sense of humor...<roflmao>
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-08 19:03
Although I did see on tv once a deer (female persuasion of course) stuck on a frozen pond somewhere up north, that had to be helped off of the ice... Maybe that's it?
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2009-07-08 19:01
Perhaps it's a German idiom.
Parent - By Restyle (*) [de] Date 2009-07-09 11:20
Die Kuh vom Eis kriegen.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-08 18:05

> We can start the experiment on move 6,


Thanks.

4...e6

1. b3 d5 2. Bb2 Nf6 3. e3 Bf5 4. f4 e6
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) [us] Date 2009-07-08 18:15
this is a fun experiment. i would think deleted is in a lot of trouble but i haven't tried the DPA feature in chessbase yet.  deleted, what settings do you use?

btw, i just ran IA from this position & rybka gives a shite position for white @ d20. it will be interesting to see if DPA does better.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2009-07-08 18:37
If Deleted is able to find a position in where DPA outperforms IA in his first try (in some obscure line!) it would mean chess is full of them.
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / Deleted Vs. Vytron (DPA Vs. IA) 1/2 - 1/2
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