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Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / KGA: Muzio Gambit (C): 6.Qxf3 Qh4
- - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-06-21 17:58
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 gxf3 6.Qxf3 Qh4
rnb1kbnr/pppp1p1p/8/8/2B1Pp1q/5Q2/PPPP2PP/RNB2RK1 w kq - 0 7
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2009-06-22 22:13
these gambits dont work anymore,i am confident i could draw either side.the only 2 with lfe in them still are the Morra & Evans.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-23 03:10
After 4.Bc4, I think that black has a forced win.
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-06-23 08:49
prove it! :)
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-06-23 16:00
Shoot out:
----- Ply = 4 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   1-0
----- Ply = 5 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   0-1
----- Ply = 6 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   ½-½
----- Ply = 7 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   0-1
----- Ply = 8 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   ½-½
----- Ply = 9 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   ½-½
----- Ply = 10 -----
Rybka 3 1-cpu   0-1

Score White: 35%, 7 Games
Done
Attachment: NewDatabase.pgn (33k)
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-06-23 17:13 Edited 2009-06-23 17:16
There is supposedly a difference between a presence of winning chances and a definite forced win, if i'm not mistaken.
Also I think it is sad noone wants to play in any of my Muzio Gambit threads. Wasn't its primary aim to have fun? Without engines, it is not sure at all if black wins all games.
Parent - - By apollox (***) [gb] Date 2009-06-23 18:13
I was wondering why you just posted up the Muzio Gambit with no explanantion...

The Muzio is probably the least sound of the main three king's gambit lines of the old days. The other two being the Kieseritzsky and Allgaier.

The Kieseritzsky was still a topical variation into the mid 20th century until Fischer ended that debate with the brilliantly simple 3...d6 preventing Ne5.

As for the Muzio, a proposed line:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. 0-0 gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. d3 Bh6 9. Nc3 Ne7 10. Bd2 Nc6 11. Rae1 Qf5 12. Nd5 Kd8 13. Qe2 Qe6 14. Qf3 Qf5
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-23 20:23
Your line ends in a repetition, so black needs to play differently in one of the last two moves.  Also, black's task is made much easier with 7.e5? when 7.d3 at least leaves white with potentially a few prayers. :-)
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-23 20:20
Obviously it's not provable with today's technology, but I think that this is the case.  Certainly after the knight sacrifice, black is winning, but can easily screw up, which is why players have often played the Muzio Gambit.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2009-06-28 12:37
these gambits dont work anymore,i am confident i could draw either side.the only 2 with lfe in them still are the Morra & Evans.
Never still KG is one of the best openings around OTB. Muzio Gambit is Draw and it was found by Kortchnoi and Keres long time ago. Morra works. But have doubt on evans. Would you put some light on it?
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2009-06-28 12:56
yes,KG is fine.in the Evans we played a strong match on the Hiarcs forum against D Overton an expert on the Evans at 48 hrs per move.it was hair-raising and we as black were always under pressure until we found a new move at move 14 which led to a draw.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2009-06-28 17:48
oh i thought the move Bd6 has put Evans out of Business . can you post the game please?
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2009-06-28 18:11
we havent tested Bd6 yet,although i would like to.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.0-0 Nf6 8.e5 d5 9.exf6 dxc4 10.fxg7 Rg8 11.Re1+ Be6 12.Bg5 Qd5 13.Nbd2 Rxg7 14.Ne4 Rg6! 15.Nh4 Rxg5 16.Nf6+ Ke7 17.Nxd5+ Rxd5 18.Qb1 Kd6 19.cxd4 Bxe1 20.Qxe1 Rd8 21.Nf3 Kd7 22.Qc3 Rd6 23.a4 Kc8 24.Re1 Nxd4 25.Ng5 Ne2+ 26.Rxe2 Rd3 27.Qb4 Rd1+ 28.Re1 c3 29.Qxc3 Rxe1+ 30.Qxe1 Bb3 31.a5 Rd1 32.Qxd1 Bxd1 33.Kf1 Bc2 34.Nxf7 b6 35.axb6 cxb6 36.Ke2 a5 37.Kd2 Bb3 38.Ng5 h6 39.Nf3 Bd5 40.Ne1 draw.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-28 14:34
I have a feeling that if Korchnoi and Keres used modern analysis tools on this, they would find otherwise. :-)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2009-06-28 17:44
I have a feeling that if Korchnoi and Keres used modern analysis tools on this, they would find otherwise.
No No the anlysis by kortchonoi and keres has been checked thoroughly analysed by many players including Garry Kasparov.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-28 19:11
Well, Kasparov can be wrong, but even this is difficult to believe, particularly since it seems to contradict my own analysis using modern analysis tools. :-)

Anyway, do you have a citation or a reference containing this analysis?  If so, I'll attack it in about a month. :-)
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2009-06-29 03:13
Yes. Actually that anlysis is in the book by Eduard Gufeld and Timoshenko. You may refer that
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-29 03:21
I cannot find this book--what is the title?
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2009-06-29 03:40
Oh yes i found my Mistake its "Chess Strategy"  By Eduard Gufeld, Nikolaĭ Kalinichenko, John Sugden. Sorry for giving Wrong information.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2009-06-29 13:16
Okay, thank you.  I'll have to take a peek if I ever come across it, though there is one thing that I do notice: it was printed in 2003, before what I consider to be "modern analysis tools", i.e. chess engines of 2900 elo and above and analysis methods such as IDeA, etc.  My guess is that Kasparov, Korchnoi, and Keres missed some important stuff, especially with these being lines where computers will often be particularly strong. :-)
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) [in] Date 2009-06-29 16:56
Yes you are absolutely right. But the line actually the main line if u see the position there is a perpetual move which is forced. If u find something new do let me know what i don't think so if white repeats the moves.
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-06-30 18:02
Ok, I'll bite! :smile: 

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 gxf3 6.Qxf3 Qh4
7.d4

rnb1kbnr/pppp1p1p/8/8/2BPPp1q/5Q2/PPP3PP/RNB2RK1 b kq -
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-06-30 20:53
7...Nc6
r1b1kbnr/pppp1p1p/2n5/8/2BPPp1q/5Q2/PPP3PP/RNB2RK1 w kq - 0 2
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-01 14:38
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qh4 7. d4 Nc6 8.
Bxf4

r1b1kbnr/pppp1p1p/2n5/8/2BPPB1q/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 b kq -
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-07-01 15:18
8...Nxd4
r1b1kbnr/pppp1p1p/8/8/2BnPB1q/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w kq - 0 2
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-01 15:35
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qh4 7. d4 Nc6 8.
Bxf4 Nxd4 9. Bxf7+

r1b1kbnr/pppp1B1p/8/8/3nPB1q/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 b kq -
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-07-05 08:19
9...Kxf7
r1b2bnr/pppp1k1p/8/8/3nPB1q/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w - - 0 2


>deka we still playing this game? If you're on vacation that's ok we'll restart when you come back.


Actually, I had some problems with my computer. My vacation won't begin until 10th of July.
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-05 15:03
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qh4 7. d4 Nc6 8.
Bxf4 Nxd4 9. Bxf7+ Kxf7 10. Qd3

r1b2bnr/pppp1k1p/8/8/3nPB1q/3Q4/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 b - -


I can understand that. Last week I lost a 7mm game database in CA.  Even the backup got corruptted, and I've got *.tmp files all over the place.  Still trying to sort it all out.  Don't know what happeded but now CA refuses to open the database.  I've been trying to rebuild it but so far only have 5mm games back in.
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-07-06 13:49
10...Nf6
r1b2b1r/pppp1k1p/5n2/8/3nPB1q/3Q4/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w - - 0 2
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-06 15:50
11.Qxd4
r1b2b1r/pppp1k1p/5n2/8/3QPB1q/8/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 b - -
Parent - - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-07-07 12:15
11...b6
r1b2b1r/p1pp1k1p/1p3n2/8/3QPB1q/8/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w - - 0 2
Parent - - By Jonas (****) [at] Date 2009-07-12 00:04
12.Bg3
Parent - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2009-07-16 13:29
12...Qg5
r1b2b1r/p1pp1k1p/1p3n2/6q1/3QP3/6B1/PPP3PP/RN3RK1 w - - 0 2
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2009-07-03 16:43
9.Bxf7

deka we still playing this game? If you're on vacation that's ok we'll restart when you come back.
Up Topic Correspondence Chess / Correspondence Chess / KGA: Muzio Gambit (C): 6.Qxf3 Qh4

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