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- - By nuff (**) Date 2007-05-22 12:41
Hey guys this is the rybka forum. This is not the Jessica, Hiarcs or Uri show. Some of the aforementioned may need to get a life or as in Hiarcs case their own forum. Some entertainment is fun but 24/7 of this is not. Who knows a cheap childcare centre for Jessica?
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-05-22 13:48
I do not understand what is your problem with me.

Uri
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 14:09
Hi Uri,

He has a problem  with me as well. I have no doubt your posts are very welcome here just as they are on CCC. As for my posts nobody that matters has told me they are not welcome.

Ignore him - he is about 12 years old and here only to cause trouble.

Best Wishes,

Harvey

ps - maybe i should retract the comment about being 12 as Richard P's(author of the baron) daughter operated the crash test dummy at leiden with no problems and she is 10 - i doubt Jon(nuff) could do the same!
Parent - - By nuff (**) Date 2007-05-22 14:34
My beef with you Uri is that you are going round making statements like "You should use Rybka 1.2 for correspondence analysis" because of one position. Show me the results of 1.2 versus 2.3.1 in a thousand games at 40 moves in 2 hours.

My beef with Hiarcs is that they are making as much noise as a Tasmanian devil without any results to show it. They don't even have their own forum and have to bore others to death with matches involving 1920 versions. Their website badly needs to be made up and instead of doing so their tester seems to be some kind of a "puff daddy".
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 14:48 Edited 2007-05-22 14:50
we know that uri is a respected Chess engine author!

Please post here the noise from a Tasmanian devil - maybe we can put it on the web site.

We have a result that no other comes close to - in the top 5 of SSDF rating list for around 20 years. That to me is pretty amazing. Maybe Rybka will match this maybe it wont - it is very new - Shredder is by far the most successful engine of the last 10 years  - Rybka has not yet won a world championship - It has a very good chance of winning this year. And maybe it will prove itself over the long term like Hiarcs and Shredder have clearly done - along with junior and a few others. I also have to mention fruit which came along and released an open source program to challenge Shredder and then soon after open source fruit - we see the amazing Rybka beta - exciting times!

Harvey
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 15:05 Edited 2007-05-22 15:10
Hi Harvey,

I just wanted to supplement with this statement from Wikipedia for folks who are not familiar with SSDF:

["On April 21, 2007, the list was released with Rybka 2.3.1 Arena leading with an estimated ELO rating of 2962. Rybka's listing in June 2006 was the first time a program on the list has passed the 2900 mark. (The SSDF rating pool is independent from any national or international rating pool such as FIDE, so the computer ratings can only be used for relative comparison.)"]

http://web.telia.com/~u85924109/ssdf/list.htm

sidserious

P.S Thank you Harvey for the positive spin. Cool!
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 17:31
Harvey,

All chess engine authors deserve respect, as their numbers are few and their arcane labors beyond the comprehension of most people.

Hiarcs commands such respect on the bases that you cite.  But surely you know that chess engines are evaluated on three levels: how well they sell, how well they rank, how well they perform when the chips are down, namely in high-profile tournaments.  On sales I am not privvy to market share statistics so I won't comment, except to say that sales are totally uncorrelated to strength but highly correlated to marketing dollars and publicity.  As for rankings, how a program ranked years ago is irrelevant.  Rankings are strictly a "what have you done lately" phenomenon.  And as for tournaments, past successes have a short half-life.  Tournament wins from three or more years ago are irrelevant, as the technological and software environment changes considerably in that span of time.  For that matter tournament wins from last week aren't particularly meaningful except as a promotional device.

None of this is to belittle Hiarcs.  But I should say that your remarks on Rybka suggest that you think the engine is still a rookie with a lot to prove.  Harvey, there are no "Lifetime Achievement Awards" in computer chess.  You're either banking a lot of money thanks to a good business model or you've got the strongest program or...you're a contender.  That's it.  I don't think Vasik needs to wait 10 or 20 years before he qualifies for some acknowledgement; he's not seeking admittance to the House of Lords.  And finally, might I add that the WCCC tournament is just another tournament?  Shall Dagh recite Rybka's lifetime tournament record?
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 17:44
Yes wccc is just another tournament - but of course you will all shout loudly here and rightly so if you win. sadly winning WCCC means little these days in terms of sales and publicity.

The main point about the time factor is that if tomorrow or next week next month or next year someone overtakes Rybka then posters on this forum and most of the Rybka fans will desert.

And maybe in 10 years time we will all be saying - remember Rybka? I hope not. As far as sales go well the majority of customers have not heard of Rybka or H11. They bought F10 or Hiarcs 10 from CB.

Or of course ChessMaster - which some say I should not be allowed to mention on this forum.

Harvey
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 18:48
I am not ashamed to admit that my own computer chess odyssey followed a Sargon > Chessmaster > Rebel > Chess Tiger > Shredder > Rybka path.  Chessmaster is a venerable product for a lot of reasons, and it serves the mass market admirably.  The only thing that troubles me about Ubisoft is their complicity in keeping their customer base in the dark.  Most buyers, I suspect, have no idea that there is a computer chess universe outside of Chessmaster.  They live in a hermetically sealed information loop.  When they find out about the larger computer chess community they are like the poor devil in "THX-1138" who emerges from underground to experience daylight for the first time.  Whatever their other faults, at least Chessbase isn't as extreme at putting the lid on the free flow of information!

Totally agree with you that a new #1 would mean the very rapid dissolution of this forum and potential relegation of Rybka to memory lane.  I am sure Vasik knows that, and that is why he works so hard to continue improving.

Regarding Rybka partisanship, sure--we've spent money on the product, we want validation of our purchase.  Plus we have our own little community here.  Surely you root for your favorite football team?  If Hiarcs won the WCCC I am sure you'd hear the usual pack of nay-sayers ("a short tournament proves nothing") but your team would also get a fair number of congratulations as well, even from this forum.
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 18:57
Hi Nelson,

I agree with everything you say.

I started with a thing called a Chess Champion, when at school, in the 70's and then a mephisto exlusive board with mephisto 2 inside. I thn got a Fidelity Excellence - the 1st machine to play sensible Chess and my last dedicated was the London 68030 Genius for my mephisto board I bought all those years ago.

Best Wishes,

Harvey
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 20:02
Hi Harvey,

I will have to disagree with your statement that "...someone overtakes Rybka then posters on this forum and most of the Rybka fans will desert."

I think that there is room for those chess engines who don't quite make the "grade" a good example of this is Shredder & Fritz. I don't think every one is going to jump ship on those programs just because Rybka is (and I hope will remain) on top of the charts.

I'll bet that if you polled members in this forum you would find that a good percentage have more then one GUI. Even the biggest proponent of 'Nay' saying, Mike W, I'll bet has more than one GUI on his PC.

sidserious
Parent - - By noctiferus (***) Date 2007-05-22 20:18 Edited 2007-05-22 20:46
For the poll: 3 GUIs, five commercial engines (fully paid) :)
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 20:22
Hi noctiferus,

That's what I am saying.

COME ON, MIKE,  HOW MANY GUI's DO YOU HAVE ON YOUR COMPUTER?

sidserious

Hell! How many computers do you have.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 21:01
Well,

I run an AMD Athlon 4400x2. I bought this dual core because I often do multiple things at the same time and thought that I would benefit from an extra core. Now that I had it I used it also for MP chess engines and in the last two months I was running single vs dual versions of Rybka for example - just to see whether the hype of all this core-mania is justified. It´s not.

On my computer I have the following GUIs:

Shredder, Fritz, CB8, CA9, Arena and when you want to count these too: Blitzin and Dasher.

I mainly use Arena and since I re-entered Playchess, Fritz too.

Arena is for tournaments and ICC, Fritz for Playchess and Chessmaster for playing.

If I had all the knowledge about engine chess 10 years earlier, I would now run some PIII, Arena, Scid, Crafty and Chessmaster. Everything else is just overkill for a Patzer like me and just serves me now for forgetting my disablement and my pains for some hours of the day.

Mike
Parent - - By ozziejoe (**) Date 2007-05-23 21:56
when you say the hype about dual core is not justified, what are you finding? How much does the second core improve things?
Parent - By insipid (**) Date 2007-05-24 04:12
MP version is 1.7 times faster than single processor version.  This is clearly visible to anyone with both versions and an mp processor.  To call it 'hype' seems odd, of course you can't run the mp version on a single core, and your kn/s will be very obviously much less.  Not sure what Michael is saying here.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 15:52
I agree with your criticizm on Hiarcs. It seems that their primary goal is to chase away their customers. We already had the discussions about their intolerable license-key system - and all that Harvey for example had to contribute, was to make a private Mail from Mark adressed to me public:

and he out of line because I already told him this on 21/3/07

Hi Mike,

I ask you to send me the hw fingerprint so I can send you a new key to ensure H11 MP will run during this period. I am developing a permanent solution to your problems which I hope to supply in the coming weeks.

---

Yes, that was from March this year - problem still unsolved ...

But when criminals here in this forum announce that they crack commercial software (Hiarcs too), then Mr. Harvey has nothing to say, readers applaud the criminals and the moderators just look away.

Time to face it, this forum has gone down the tubes.

Mike
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 16:06
Hi Mike,

A serious reply - several of the guys who post here that they are pirating - I am watching and with the help of http://www.kikrtech.com/ they are all slowly being deleted.

As far as customers go surprising that sales have gone up recently. Also worth saying to people is that they seem to have some misconception that people like Mark, Vas and Stefan have a lot of money and can afford for people to pirate their engines this is simply not true. Mike we do not have any problem with you and your reasonable arguement about the protection. But as far as advertising goes - surely each engine author is free to do what he can.

Best Wishes,

Harvey
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 16:12
Harvey,

Now what do you want to tell me? That I should report this forum for allowing piracy threads to stand with the mods just looking away?

And my point concerning Hiarcs is that you published a private mail for your argumentation that the problems will get fixed with weeks. This simply was a lie. I still can´t use Hiarcs 11 under Win 64 because of different hardware there and H11 isn´t offering any fingerprints any longer - or why do you think I didn´t take the offer for a new key?

Simply because it was not possible.

Mike
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 17:28
Now what do you want to tell me? That I should report this forum for allowing piracy threads to stand with the mods just looking away?

No.

This simply was a lie. I still can´t use Hiarcs 11 under Win 64 because of different hardware there and H11 isn´t offering any fingerprints any longer



H11 is still offering fingerprints - any customer can have 1.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 17:46
Ok, then let me put that in understandable words.

You simply can not do anything against the crackers. That´s why Mark puts these intolerable keys upon Hiarcs which only harms the loyal customer while the crackers laugh at you. You name some obscure website for making people believe that something is done against piracy, but in the end you can not only not stop them from cracking your engine, but also not from bragging about it in this forum, nor were you able to get the threads deleted.

And then, on the second issue you just make statements for my computer system for which you have no access at all. Well, I assume that you now have your week of absolute power, Harvey almighty.

You are only right on one thing: Programmers have the right to deal with their code in which way they like ...

... but another thing you have forgotten: It´s my right as customer to say that I won´t buy a program with such restrictions again and that I am done with Hiarcs.

Mike
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 17:55
ok michael - i dont understand your reply - but lets stop here.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 18:09
You understand very well. You just want to switch to another subject for not having the rude business manners of Hiarcs to get more publicity. That´s all.

H11 is still offering fingerprints - any customer can have 1.

What do you exactly mean by that? Do one have to buy 2 licenses for one and the same computer because one has two operating systems installed that unfortunately use different hardware? Come on, clarify this!

And here is the statement from Mark again: I am developing a permanent solution to your problems which I hope to supply in the coming weeks.. Where ist this solution?

And here again the bragging of our cracker friends: Our own private hybrid is made from Lxxp, Rxkxa, Zxp Zxxxxbxr, Cxxst, Hxxxxs, Sxrxxdxr, Txxa, Fxxit, Some GUI parts, Fxxtz, Jxnxxr, Cxxxsmxxtxr and some other freeware engines.

Come on Harvey, try your best to talk your self out by arguing that surely something else than Hiarcs was meant!

Thes people feel really safe: Ripping the engines code/features is an easy task if you have the right technique and tools even if the program has undergo the process of obfuscation (the means to protect the programs from decoders, most C and C++ languages have this unlike Java which is far more easy to decompile) it can be ripped.

Where was your oh-so-useful-kikr-website people to stop them?

They just laugh at you: We don't modify the program we create a new one. We don't decompile, we deobfuscate. We don't derive, we create a new software.

In other words: If I steal a car I just call it borrowing it and everything is fine...

We have cutting edge military technology and we can experiment with it. We have a big budget for these technologies. This is just one of our hobbies and you can't stop us for having some fun and learning.

And what have you, Mr. Harvey to stop them?

So, let´s get this straight. You only have a big mouth when loyal customers have legal complaints and when cracker openly admit that they don´t care at all about Copyright and no one can stop them you simply are speechless!

This is HIARCS nowadays!

Mike
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 18:23
What do you exactly mean by that? Do one have to buy 2 licenses for one and the same computer because one has two operating systems installed that unfortunately use different hardware? Come on, clarify this!

No you can have 2 keys for this computer - no extra charge. If you have another computer you can also have a 3rd key..... and a 4th etc...


I am developing a permanent solution to your problems which I hope to supply in the coming weeks

You will find out soon when 11.2 is released.


And here again the bragging of our cracker friends: Our own private hybrid is made from Lxxp, Rxkxa, Zxp Zxxxxbxr, Cxxst, Hxxxxs, Sxrxxdxr, Txxa, Fxxit, Some GUI parts, Fxxtz, Jxnxxr, Cxxxsmxxtxr and some other freeware engines.

I am sure they meant Hiarcs - but I am sure that you do not for a nano second believe they have all our source codes and have combined them to make a super engine.

Thes people feel really safe: Ripping the engines code/features is an easy task if you have the right technique and tools even if the program has undergo the process of obfuscation (the means to protect the programs from decoders, most C and C++ languages have this unlike Java which is far more easy to decompile) it can be ripped.

Where was your oh-so-useful-kikr-website people to stop them?

what they are doing will be clear soon - but again do you really believe what they claim - I dont so they are not a priority.


We have cutting edge military technology and we can experiment with it. We have a big budget for these technologies. This is just one of our hobbies and you can't stop us for having some fun and learning.

And what have you, Mr. Harvey to stop them? - maybe I will let the US military know what their hardware is being used for!?
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 18:30
No you can have 2 keys for this computer - no extra charge. If you have another computer you can also have a 3rd key..... and a 4th etc...

In that case you are just unable to read, sorry. I just posted now a couple of dozen times that I simply wasn´t able to obtain another key, because therefore a fingerprint is required and H11 just refuses to give me one for sending it to Mark. Sorry, but a solution for that has to come from you. I can not help you with that. Ignoring this, like you ever did won´t help you.

you do not for a nano second believe they have all our source codes and have combined them to make a super engine.

Finally a statement to work with. What makes you so sure that these people don´t have all those skills and program they claim to have?

maybe I will let the US military know what their hardware is being used for!?

LOL, just send me a copy of your letter to the US military and what they answer you, if ever.

Mike
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 18:35
oh they will reply as I was based at central command during the war with Iraq, 2 months in Doha, and am still in regular touch with some very senior Americans.

Although I somehow doubt they are really using military hardware.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 19:08 Edited 2007-05-22 19:11
Oh dear, a BBC correspondent talks of his service at Central Command.  I would rather read the straightforwardly hostile reportage in the French press, calling us les sauvages américains, than the dour and sardonic reports issued by the BBC under a pretense of objectivity.  Is there a news organization in the world more full of itself and condescending than the BBC?  I doubt it!  When I think of BBC reporters I think of scruffy, bearded sandal-wearers with a well-refined taste for socialism and hard liquor.  Don't take this personally, Harvey.  I am just referring to the general run of BBC reporters, not you.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 19:23
Hi Nelson,

Thanks for the promotion - I was merely the humble Network Radio Producer.

Harvey
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 20:10
I especially like your post that you agree with everything I say.
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 20:17
Gosh! Nelson,

I kind of like, Justin Webb's, sometimes flippant- if not sardonic, understated humor; and, Katy Kay! doesn't pull any punches when it comes to putting questions that American news anchors avoid entirely.

sidserious
Parent - - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 19:27
I can´t say anything useful to your assumption that the US military will investigate the stealing of chess program code only because you know some senior officers. Reading your statements, I get the impression that you think that you have to deal with some script kiddies who just brag without having any knowledge at all. You simply doubt that this "engine" called rocket contains stolen code and that it is fully okay to let them publicly go on to justify ripping code of commercial engines. You simply seem to see no threat at all when people start to applaud to all these illegal ideas spread on this forum, assuming that the chances that people, now aware of these engines, don´t try to get them and therefore create a "market" for stolen software.

I completely disagree on that. There undoubtly is an "engine" called rocket out there and I have quite some entries in my databases that they are used on online servers, even the "engine" isn´t very strong and regularly gets clobbered by Rybka. As far as I can see are there more than only a couple of persons who use this rocket, so there is clearly a demand for it and it definetely gets spread around the engine chess community.

And whether I believe that these people have or have not the skills and programs they claim to have makes no difference at all. I just don´t like where the engine chess scene finally gotten into. Nowadays it´s just normal and accepted that people talking publicly about illegal activities don´t get stopped - no one says a word. It has become totally normal, that people openly and publicly ask others to send them illegal copies of (cracked) commercial engines. No one says a word, not even the programmers and their affiliates themselves and then they wonder why their code gets stolen.

Mike
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 19:42
I doubt they will give a s__t about chess software. They may be prepared to investigate the mis-use of military hardware.

This of course presumes these rocket guys have any kind of access.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 20:18
Mike,

How the hell do you type so fast?
Parent - By Michael Waesch Date 2007-05-22 21:03
I am a natural talent with my very own 2-finger system.

Mike
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 20:19
Mike,

How the hell do you type so fast?

P.S. Fox news would love.
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-22 14:44
This thread has nothing to do with Rybka.

Please let these statements go unchallenged without added further insult. I, like you, grow tired of such attacks on forum members;they tend to be far and few between up until lately.

I am sure Felix would act if this stuff gets out of hand with a simple warning. Right now, I would recommend forbearance, or an intelligent remonstrance, instructive and to the point. 

regards,
Robert
Parent - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2007-05-22 15:55
Oh NO! I just left one post and wandered in here to find more flames!!
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2007-05-23 09:45
Ok, then let's connect it to Rybka :-)

Here's my updated table, 32-bit, sp, 1.7 Celeron, 3-4-5 Nalimov, 64MB hash, 40'/40+15'/20+5'/rest, 10-game match all-play-all, book home made human GM database, tournament conditions. Hiarcs is the best non-Rybka engine at the moment.


    Program                          Elo    +   -   Games   Score   Av.Op.  Draws

  1 Rybka 2.3 LK 32-bit            : 2988   47  47   130    63.1 %   2895   40.0 %
  2 Rybka 2.2 32-bit               : 2980   47  46   130    61.9 %   2895   40.8 %
  3 Rybka 2.1o 32-bit              : 2967   45  45   130    60.0 %   2896   44.6 %
  4 Rybka 1.2f 32-bit              : 2964   45  44   130    59.6 %   2896   45.4 %
  5 Rybka 2.3 32-bit               : 2959   45  44   130    58.8 %   2897   45.4 %
  6 Rybka 2.2n2 32-bit             : 2959   45  45   130    58.8 %   2897   43.8 %
  7 Rybka 2.3.1 32-bit             : 2934   46  46   130    55.0 %   2899   42.3 %
  8 HIARCS 11.1 UCI                : 2911   50  50   130    51.5 %   2900   30.8 %
  9 Shredder 10 UCI                : 2884   51  52   130    47.3 %   2903   26.9 %
10 LoopMP 12.32                   : 2874   45  45   130    45.8 %   2903   43.8 %
11 Toga II 1.3x4                  : 2841   49  49   130    40.8 %   2906   35.4 %
12 Junior 10.1                    : 2831   49  49   130    39.2 %   2907   35.4 %
13 Chess Tiger 2007               : 2796   51  51   130    34.2 %   2909   31.5 %
14 Deep Sjeng 2.5                 : 2714   59  61   130    23.8 %   2916   20.0 %


Dragon Mist
Parent - - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-05-23 13:06
I noted that you are using 64 MB hash on Nalimov-I was wondering if that should be at leat 100 or more?

sidserious

I've been using 64MB hash for all engines-but, I am still not clear on how much to allocate for Nalimov.
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2007-05-24 06:38
No, I am using 64MB for hash - it's an rather old PC with WIN XP Pro barely working on it. For Nalimov I use 8 MB cache.

Figuring the right Nalimov cache figure is IMHO irrelevant; some (many) folks question Nalimov usage alltogether - probably rightly so - then allocating large cache for Naliov seems even more waste.

Dragon Mist
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-05-23 13:32
I do not see Zap in your table and zap 32 bits is one of the opponents that compete for the second place.

some CCRL data

40/4

  Hiarcs 11.1 2915 +15 −15 63.5% −93.8 32.1% 1711
  Zap!Chess Zanzibar 32-bit 2847 +40 −40 55.5% −37.5 34.0% 200
51.9%

Hiarcs is 68 elo better than zap

40/40
Hiarcs 11.1 2910 +24 −24 60.2% −67.8 41.3% 543
51.5%
   Zap!Chess Zanzibar 32-bit 2881 +25 −25 59.1% −59.9 43.4% 484

Hiarcs is only 29 elo better than zap.

I suspect that if you play time control that is long enough zap may be better than hiarcs.

Another commercial that is not in the list is Naum.

Uri
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2007-05-24 06:41
Uri,

as you can guess, playing 1 min per move 10-game match in an all-play-all tourney takes time. So I just didn't include Zanzibar as of now. Also are missing Naum (as you point), Ktulu, Fruit, Fritz etc. My idea was to include all Rybka versions, and some "rest of the world", to give perspective and variety. Now I'm starting Rybka 1.1 and Ktulu 8.0.

Dragon Mist
Parent - By Wayne Lowrance (***) Date 2007-05-22 17:11
There sis no problem with you Uri, we appreciate your postings and knowledge.
Wayne
Parent - By Jessica (**) Date 2007-05-22 21:02
Funny how some idiot sparks the converstation again...Wonder if its Mikey boy starting a new one!
Parent - - By McHugh (*) Date 2007-05-22 16:47
Hold up a second. I need to make more popcorn for this show. I'll brb.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-05-22 17:56
please make extra this thread is fun! I will buy popcorn for sure!
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-05-23 06:58
For me, two large nachos with cheese :)

Vas
Parent - By Graham Banks (*****) Date 2007-05-23 09:50
:)   :)   :)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-05-22 18:58

>Hey guys this is the rybka forum. This is not the Jessica, Hiarcs or Uri show. Some of the aforementioned may need to get a life or as in Hiarcs >case their own forum. Some entertainment is fun but 24/7 of this is not. Who knows a cheap childcare centre for Jessica?


Uri Blass show???? What Uri did(wrong in your opinion)?
Also about Hiarcs. What was wrong with Hiarcs and this forum?
About Jessica i agree that her/his statements are most of the times overreactions and wrong conclusions, but everyone has the right of his opinion....

Can you answer the 2 questions....?

This thread needs to be deleted anyway.....
Parent - - By McHugh (*) Date 2007-05-22 20:45
This thread is far too entertaining to be deleted! :)
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / This is not the Jessica, Hiarcs or Uri show
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