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Poll
Score in "Dzindzi" vs. Rybka 3 match, Rybka without f7 pawn? (Closed)
| Roman by 4-0 | 2 | 2% | |
| Roman by 3.5-0.5 | 0 | 0% | |
| Roman by 3-1 | 1 | 1% | |
| Roman by 2.5-1.5 | 11 | 11% | |
| Tie Match 2-2 | 18 | 18% | |
| Rybka by 2.5-1.5 | 16 | 16% | |
| Rybka by 3-1 | 29 | 30% | |
| Rybka by 3.5-0.5 | 8 | 8% | |
| Rybka by 4-0 | 13 | 13% |
yes i'd been thinking about how to make it even since computers have no problems playing in their "heads"
You have 3 GM's in a room, discussing what to play,
This is really amazing! :-) I think of Kasparov, Ivanchuk and Salov.
PS: I´m sure, you are a democrat. Majority is always right! This is true, but only in the long run. Meanwhile you have lost hundred of games (or wars or fellows).
This is really amazing! :-) I think of Kasparov, Ivanchuk and Salov.
PS: I´m sure, you are a democrat. Majority is always right! This is true, but only in the long run. Meanwhile you have lost hundred of games (or wars or fellows).
Better yet, how about Kasparov, Anand, and Kramnik, around 1999? Actually, it does not have to be democratic: there could be a team captain who decides what move to play, but after hearing the advice of others. This takes the monkey off his back--you're much less likely to make blunders when others check the lines. Also, as your fear of blunders diminishes, you play with more vigor. Oftentimes, humans play against computers as if they were paralyzed.
I'm sure we could find three 2600-2650 level GMs who would do this for the amount of money you could bring in the way you are describing, but they would have no chance. To get Anand, Kramnik, and Carlsen together to play a six game match this way would probably take one million dollars. As for allowing one (or more) GMs to use a board or screen as an aide while playing, I have no problem at all with this, but I think if you are talking about Elite players it would only raise their ratings by something like 20-25 Elo. You mention tests on this, but you don't mention whether the tests were on Elite GMs or just ordinary amateurs (or something in between). Personally it would help me considerably, but I'm not even 2400 FIDE. Can you point to those tests or give more information about them?
As for giving the human access to the same book and TBs as Rybka, I could accept that as well, as long as the book is just a database without the move choices of Rybka highlighted. In other words, the Rybka 3 book will have some moves highlighted in green, others not; the GM should just get the book without coloring. He should have equal access to the games comprising the book, but it's not fair for him to know which choices Rybka will make against each move he might choose. Of course Rybka could easily give this handicap, perhaps by playing with an uncolored database herself, but you are trying to propose advantages that are not clearly a handicap. As for TBs, equal access is okay there, it's probably only worth a few Elo points, although some CCRL data on two programs indicated an average value of 30 Elo, much higher than other estimates.
So if we give the GM a board to analyze on, an identical but uncolored opening book, and equal TB access, I think we are giving him something like fifty Elo points of advantages that might not be considered a handicap. This value is debatable, but it's very unlikely to be outside the 20-100 range. Anyway, it's nowhere near enough to give the 2800 superstars any more than drawing chances. To make it at all equal without departing from standard chess rules, we would have to give all White pieces, no ponder, and huge time odds, maybe 30 moves in three hours vs. 5' blitz.
As for giving the human access to the same book and TBs as Rybka, I could accept that as well, as long as the book is just a database without the move choices of Rybka highlighted. In other words, the Rybka 3 book will have some moves highlighted in green, others not; the GM should just get the book without coloring. He should have equal access to the games comprising the book, but it's not fair for him to know which choices Rybka will make against each move he might choose. Of course Rybka could easily give this handicap, perhaps by playing with an uncolored database herself, but you are trying to propose advantages that are not clearly a handicap. As for TBs, equal access is okay there, it's probably only worth a few Elo points, although some CCRL data on two programs indicated an average value of 30 Elo, much higher than other estimates.
So if we give the GM a board to analyze on, an identical but uncolored opening book, and equal TB access, I think we are giving him something like fifty Elo points of advantages that might not be considered a handicap. This value is debatable, but it's very unlikely to be outside the 20-100 range. Anyway, it's nowhere near enough to give the 2800 superstars any more than drawing chances. To make it at all equal without departing from standard chess rules, we would have to give all White pieces, no ponder, and huge time odds, maybe 30 moves in three hours vs. 5' blitz.
"Can you point to those tests or give more information about them?"
I plead guilty to hearsay, your honor! I heard somewhere that even strong masters had their ratings raised 200-300 points by being allowed to play ahead on another board. Sorry, I don't know where to get the information, or if it's even correct. I think I read it on a message board somewhere a while ago, and the poster sounded like they had very specific knowledge of what they were talking about, so I tended to believe it. Of course, even if it's true, the gain might be lower when you go up to 2700 players.
I plead guilty to hearsay, your honor! I heard somewhere that even strong masters had their ratings raised 200-300 points by being allowed to play ahead on another board. Sorry, I don't know where to get the information, or if it's even correct. I think I read it on a message board somewhere a while ago, and the poster sounded like they had very specific knowledge of what they were talking about, so I tended to believe it. Of course, even if it's true, the gain might be lower when you go up to 2700 players.
maybe this 200-300 ELO difference you heard is for blindfold.
will we be able to follow the match today ? when does it start?
nice
thx !
i'm off work at 17h hope to be home at 18u so i canstill catch some games :)
thx !
i'm off work at 17h hope to be home at 18u so i canstill catch some games :)
Larry can you post here a link who a can watch roman vs rybka broadcast , please ?
http://www.chessok.com/broadcast/live.html possibly, but at least you can watch it with the chessplanet client you get at http://chessok.com/?page_id=408
Ok, thank you felix !
I hope that somebody do a broadcast on playchess.com , the last match roman vs rybka were broacast on playchess by somebody
I hope that somebody do a broadcast on playchess.com , the last match roman vs rybka were broacast on playchess by somebody
Yes, I expect to broadcast on playchess this time.
aha, so broadcast only on playchess.com or on both servers?
It's supposed to be on both, assuming I get the necessary information for the Chess Planet broadcast.
It would be very fine, if we can see the eval of playing Rybka version during the game (chessplanet?).
I have some problems to watch the games live. Could anyone post them as soon as they are over, please? Thanks
[Event "Handicap Match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dzindzichashvili, Roman"]
[Black "Rybka 3"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "74"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qe7 7. O-O O-O 8. Bf4
Nc6 9. a3 Bd6 10. e3 Rab8 11. Nc3 Na5 12. Nd2 Bxf4 13. gxf4 Bxg2 14. Kxg2 c5
15. d5 Qf7 16. dxe6 dxe6 17. Qe2 Qg6+ 18. Kh1 Rbd8 19. Nf3 Ne4 20. Ne5 Nxc3 21.
Nxg6 Nxe2 22. Nxf8 Kxf8 23. Rad1 Rxd1 24. Rxd1 Nb3 25. Rd7 Na5 26. Rxa7 Nxc4
27. b4 cxb4 28. axb4 Nc3 29. Rc7 b5 30. Rc5 Ke7 31. Kg2 h6 32. h4 Kd6 33. Kg1
Ne2+ 34. Kf1 Nc3 35. Kg1 Kd7 36. Kg2 Kd6 37. Kg1 Ne2+ 1/2-1/2
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dzindzichashvili, Roman"]
[Black "Rybka 3"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "74"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Qe7 7. O-O O-O 8. Bf4
Nc6 9. a3 Bd6 10. e3 Rab8 11. Nc3 Na5 12. Nd2 Bxf4 13. gxf4 Bxg2 14. Kxg2 c5
15. d5 Qf7 16. dxe6 dxe6 17. Qe2 Qg6+ 18. Kh1 Rbd8 19. Nf3 Ne4 20. Ne5 Nxc3 21.
Nxg6 Nxe2 22. Nxf8 Kxf8 23. Rad1 Rxd1 24. Rxd1 Nb3 25. Rd7 Na5 26. Rxa7 Nxc4
27. b4 cxb4 28. axb4 Nc3 29. Rc7 b5 30. Rc5 Ke7 31. Kg2 h6 32. h4 Kd6 33. Kg1
Ne2+ 34. Kf1 Nc3 35. Kg1 Kd7 36. Kg2 Kd6 37. Kg1 Ne2+ 1/2-1/2
thank you :-)
Where is the broadcast ? I cannot find on Chessplanet :-(
It's called ODDS2008 and the color of the name is pink.
Thanks ! It would be great,- to get this information on the Main Page :-D
Sorry, link is changed to
http://chessok.com/broadcast/live.php?key=dzindzi3.pgn&game=0
Game 2 is about to be started
http://chessok.com/broadcast/live.php?key=dzindzi3.pgn&game=0
Game 2 is about to be started
It seems after 20. g4 that Rybka 3 is not going to have an easy time. Pieces missplaced and not active. I predict a quick crush. Not good looking anyhow.
I can watch the game properly now. Thanks for posting before. It seems indeed that GM RD is giving rybka some hard time ;-)
This idea certainly appeals to me! I'd gladly pay some ducats to see any top-grandmaster figure out his moves that way live!
It would not only be more aesthetic, but also more instructive for the spectator than any form of handicap-play.
The only thing I'm afraid of, is that the difference in strength would still be very large. What boost in playing strength could you expect, if the human has access to an openings book, endgame tablebases and a second board to work his moves out? Say 100 elo for the book, 50 at the most for the tablebases and perhaps another 50 for the visual aid? That's 200, on top of say 2800 for the strongest human player these days, and there's still a huge gap with Rybka 3's projected 3150 elo ...
But nevertheless, I for one would like to see this idea in operation!
It would not only be more aesthetic, but also more instructive for the spectator than any form of handicap-play.
The only thing I'm afraid of, is that the difference in strength would still be very large. What boost in playing strength could you expect, if the human has access to an openings book, endgame tablebases and a second board to work his moves out? Say 100 elo for the book, 50 at the most for the tablebases and perhaps another 50 for the visual aid? That's 200, on top of say 2800 for the strongest human player these days, and there's still a huge gap with Rybka 3's projected 3150 elo ...
But nevertheless, I for one would like to see this idea in operation!
humans tend to lose to engines due to blunders. with a team effort these blunders would occur significantly less. therefore i think the GM team would emerge the victor. (assuming they were super GM's)
I disagree.
Humans lose to computers because they are weaker
I expect humans GM's to lose against rybka3 even if they are allowed to use toga to help them.
Uri
Humans lose to computers because they are weaker
I expect humans GM's to lose against rybka3 even if they are allowed to use toga to help them.
Uri
Humans are not weaker !
The thing is,- that one and the same engine can evaluate one position like a worldclass-player and one position later the same engine is helpless like maybe a 1400 rated player. The goal is, to find the weakest point of an engine,- and here is Roman very very good. He understands, how to play against these machines. Maybe better, than a Kramnik against Fritz. :-)
The thing is,- that one and the same engine can evaluate one position like a worldclass-player and one position later the same engine is helpless like maybe a 1400 rated player. The goal is, to find the weakest point of an engine,- and here is Roman very very good. He understands, how to play against these machines. Maybe better, than a Kramnik against Fritz. :-)
hogwash! If the human GM had the aid of a strong chess program other then Rybka in a long time control with no handicap. I strongly believe the human GM to win against Rybka 3.
I believe that rybka is a favourite if the difference is more than 200 elo and I believe that rybka3 on good hardware is more than 200 elo stronger than toga.
Uri
Uri
Chessbase posted an interesting article about the match today (written by Larry):
The Dzindzi – Rybka 3 Handicap Match
The Dzindzi – Rybka 3 Handicap Match
Yes, I enjoyed it. War Dzindzi!
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