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- - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-09 22:01 Edited 2007-07-03 04:12
     A six game handicap match has been scheduled between Grandmaster Jaan Ehlvest (FIDE rating 2629) and Rybka (version 2.3.2a plus possible enhancements) for July 5-8. Here are the terms.

1. Prize Fund (from five Rybka fans): Match victory by Ehlvest -- Eleven Thousand Dollars. Drawn Match -- Three Thousand One Hundred Dollars. Consolation prize for lost match -- One Thousand Five Hundred Dollars.
2. Opening book: Rybka is limited to a 3 move deep opening book I am preparing (to provide variety and avoid prepared games)!
3. Endgame Tablebases: None allowed.
4. Hardware limitation: Quadcore pc, limit of 512 MB for hash tables.
5. Color: Ehlvest gets White every game!
6. Time limit: FIDE time control (90'+30" increment) for Ehlvest, 45'+15" for Rybka. External clock governs Grandmaster, computer clock governs computer.
7. breaks: five minute break twice each game on request by Ehlvest. Computer may reboot if frozen.
8. Schedule: First game, 5 p.m. July 5, next four games 10 a.m. and 5 p.m. July 6 and 7, final game 9 a.m. July 8. All times Eastern Daylight Time (Washington D.C./NY).
9. Playing location: my home in Potomac, MD.
10. Expense money: $300 minimum guaranteed.
11. Match to be broadcast over the internet, details TBA.

 
Parent - - By Hamlet (**) [fi] Date 2007-04-09 22:40
[deleted]
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-09 22:52
[deleted]
Parent - - By diskamyl (**) [tr] Date 2007-04-09 23:27
well, that's really very interesting. almost exactly what I was hoping for (except the schedule, I'd wish 1game per 2 days). I can't wait to see the match. 
Parent - - By billyraybar (***) [us] Date 2007-04-09 23:51
Wow.  I hope we get a taker.  I think Rybka would have a tough time under those conditions.  Regardless, this would be a most exciting match!
Parent - - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-04-10 00:02
Sounds interesting, indeed. Although I doubt that many grandmasters who live near Larry will read this forum and feel attracted.

Mike
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-10 01:00
They won't have to read this forum. I'll see to it that word gets out, and I'll relay the offer to Ehlvest and other GMs I know personally. As for distance, if NY counts as close (about 230 miles) there are plenty of GMs who would qualify. I'll wait to see how much the offer gets increased by others before publicizing it.
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-10 02:00
Kamsky and Nakamura are fine contestants for Rybka. I know that Kamsky is well aware of Rybka community now adays with BigMomma with close contact. Nakamura may need some convincing though.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-04-10 03:55 Edited 2007-04-10 04:00
Nakamura was willing to spend three days in a freestyle competition for the chance to win $ 8K so if the pot was increased this might not be totally out of the question...

He's also been quoted as saying that his brain is better than Rybka 6 days out of 7, so maybe he might think he could actually win...

I think this would be a good match for us clowns (Naka speak for non GMs).
Parent - - By Lee Ma Hong (**) [ph] Date 2007-04-10 04:45
so, two questions arise:

1) How much prize money would entice Nakamura to play Rybka in such a match

2) Would someone be willing to add to the prize money put up by LK
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-04-10 06:37 Edited 2007-04-10 06:43
I am willing to add another $1000 thus doubling the pot.  It might make it more interesting.  No $500 from my side if the match is drawn, I want to see attacking chess.  I will agree to the conditions set out by Kaufman.  This would be for a one off match that would be for the highest rated GM to qualify for the event. 
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-10 11:57
     Thank you very much for your offer to contribute to the prize fund. This should make the prize fund large enough to attract a 2600+ player, at least if someone kicks in expense money. It's okay if you don't want to contribute in case of a drawn match, but of course a drawn match doesn't have anything to do with drawn games. I certainly intend to set a high "contempt" value for Rybka to minimize the likelihood of draws. I agree that we should choose the highest rated GM, though if it's a close choice we might want to go with one who has a reputation for good sportsmanship, since I anticipate that the GM (whoever he is) may get trounced and may walk out early if he is not a good sport.
     Please communicate with me privately about the practical aspects of your offer.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-04-10 13:05
Hey Larry, if this match comes off I'd like to be the first guy to buy tickets.  I live in nearby McLean.  I can bring beer.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-04-10 13:51
Actually the main reason I don't want any prize fund for drawn match is because this will give the GM the incentive of trying to have a Pablo type setup with locked position which would be absolutely boring for the spectators and thus be counterproductive.  Without an opening book, Rybka should easily be steered into such positions.  Otherwise let me know what arrangements are needed before the match to set it up from my side.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-04-10 14:14
I do not believe that it is possible to draw every game by pablo type setup even for GM's when you do not know the opening of the computer and rybka has an opening book for the first 3 moves.
If you are afraid that it is possible you can decide to give a prize for a drawn match only if not all the games are draws.

Uri
Parent - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-04-10 17:06
I saw some GMs trying that on ICC. They all lost in 99% of all cases.

Mike
Parent - By Hamlet (**) [fi] Date 2007-04-10 14:38 Edited 2007-04-10 14:41

>at least if someone kicks in expense money


What is your email address?

Edited: I found private message function of this messageboard. No need for email.

Regards,

Hamlet
Parent - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-04-10 07:10
May be someone should have a look at his previous games against Rybka. I think "Smallville" is his nick on ICC, but to be sure I would have to look it up.

Mike
Parent - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-04-10 07:09
Sounds good. And if you and Vasik are willing to play a few extra exhibition games against Rybka too, just for the show, I could imagine people would be enthusiastic.

Mike
Parent - - By Kapaun (****) [de] Date 2007-04-10 08:13
I am also motivated by the desire to find out how much of a disadvantage it is to have almost no opening book

Yes, you may point your finger at something there. During the last years I've got the feeling that opening theory has more holes than a Swiss cheese. And that on the other hand at least Rybka is well prepared to play with a very short book or even none at all. Of course it takes more time, so a very short book might still be a disadvantage after all. But speaking of Correspondence Chess it really could be worth a test...
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-04-10 17:52
Mark Lacrosse has done some work on that very recently and concluded that no book vs. a variety of books of more or less "stock" quality is about a -65 ELO disadvantage.  If he sees this he can elaborate further.
Parent - By Kapaun (****) [de] Date 2007-04-10 18:58
And which factors constitute these 65 ELO? Is it the quality of moves? Or is it the time which is used early?
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-10 19:16
     That's very interesting. My pretty much off-the-cuff guess was about fifty Elo. I reason that if we have White, playing non-theoretical openings should still equalize and thus cost us the normal opening edge (around 40-50 Elo at this super-elevated level); I'm guessing it won't cost much more as Black. I'd like to read more about this.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-04-10 23:51
Parent - - By Berfomet (**) Date 2007-04-10 18:21
Is Rybka going to ponder in the game? And why did you choose the human to play always as white and not alternate colors? And why not a normal game and normal time controls with the most optimal setting, hardware and book on rybka?
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-10 19:31
You're missing the whole point of the match. It's already been shown that even Fritz can defeat the human World Champion giving him various advantages. If we're to make any point, given that our opponent won't be a top-ten player, we must concede much greater advantages than have ever been offered to a top GM (other than the Rybka-Ehvest match). All white, no book after move 3, double time, no tablebases, small hashtables, no super-computer (I only have a quad), that's about everything I thought it reasonable to offer. I did consider throwing in no ponder, but enough is enough, don't you think? If Rybka can win the match this way against a very strong GM, it will prove rather conclusively that Rybka can only be challenged by humans in handicap play from then on, just as Morphy said after crushing all opposition on even terms 150 years ago.
Parent - - By Berfomet (**) Date 2007-04-10 19:38
Now, I see why you chose handicap.
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-10 20:50
To tell you the true though... I don't think anyone in the 2600-2730 area would have a chance against Rybka. I think Kramnik would have a 25% chance, Anand a 15% chance, Topalov a 15% chance, and Kasparov a 50% chance of winning the match. I think Kamsky and Nakamura would have a 5-10% chance of winning the match.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-04-10 22:00

> I think ... would have a 25% chance, ... 15% chance, ... 5-10% chance of winning the match.


I agree.

So by logic, the match won't even take place, unless we pay the GM even if he loses...
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-10 23:58
     Well, you might be right going just by rating, but Kamsky and Nakamura have far more experience playing computers than do Anand or Topalov. Also, another factor is that normal playing strength depends to a considerable extent on opening knowledge/preparation, but in this match opening knowledge is not a factor, as Rybka will only have three moves of book. It is widely believed that Kamsky is on a par with the very best players if you exclude opening knowledge, so on balance he might actually be the toughest possible opponent. In terms of getting the grandmaster to play, it doesn't matter what we think their chances are, it only matters what they think their chances are. I must also agree with Gambitto, who points out that the chances of the human player depend very much on the style of play and on whether the GM can adapt his play to the circumstances. So while I agree that Rybka is favored against anyone, I think it is very, very, difficult to estimate the probability of success in this unique proposed match, for which we have no precedent. Certainly I would bet on Kamsky given 10 to 1 odds if he were the opponent; there are too many unknowns.
Parent - By david250 (*) [ca] Date 2007-04-11 13:10
How about $500 for every game won by the human player, plus
$500 for playing all six games?

So a GM who ends up in a tie at 3.0 to 3.0  +2 =2 -2 would go home with
2x500 + 500 = $1500.

There's an incentive to win as many games as possible.

David
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2007-04-10 21:49
Hi Larry,

To only find a very strong GM it is not the most important thing here. It is very important that he also has experience in this type of confrontations. Against the machines, it is necessary to be very well prepared and  know how to play in a different style. This is really very very important.

Do you remember GM Ilya Smirin?  He is very strong playing against programs. But there are many others.

Regards,
Gambitto.
Parent - - By ebutaljib (****) Date 2007-04-10 21:32
I would be very interested to see such a match. If human really gets blown away by Rybka under this conditions then it's time to forget about human vs. machine matches once and for all.
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-10 23:09
We thought Deep Blue vs Kasparov was exciting than think again. Maybe Kasparov might play Rybka to show the world that computers are still... Computers.
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2007-04-10 23:34
Hi,

Kasparov will return in some moment to play against some machine. Kasparov said that he was retired, but he was totally available to play against the machines in the future. I hope it can be against Rybka.

Regards,
Gambitto.
Parent - - By diskamyl (**) [tr] Date 2007-04-11 07:31
"Kasparov will return in some moment to play against some machine."

how do you know that?
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2007-04-11 09:43
Kasparov himself said it in an interview.
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-11 10:19
Do you have a link of the interview, Gambitto?
Parent - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2007-04-12 09:52
No, i dont have it. I remember Kasparov said that he was not interested in competitive chess anymore. But, he would try to play against some machine in a future, or in a blitz human tournament too. I am sure, Kasparov will play again in some time.
Parent - By sovi (**) [cz] Date 2007-04-11 12:08 Edited 2007-04-11 12:30
Parent - - By kaustubh (**) [in] Date 2007-04-11 11:10
lkaufman i think you should email some grandmasters and ask them if they agree to play at $1000 . Maybe someone will agree to play because of
Rybka's success .
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-11 11:23
I don't think you'll get a GM rated above 2650 to play Rybka in a formal match. They are cowards... not willing to sacrifice their reputation for the sake of a match thousands of chess fans can learn from.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-11 13:23
     I don't think that most grandmasters are "cowards". A great many of them have taken on computers in matches in the past. Most of them will play a match with a computer, provided they receive their customary compensation, which of course depends primarily on their rating. I've already started to notify GMs about this proposal. I don't doubt that we will get a positive response, but even with the contributions to the prize fund that have been offered (thanks to all of you!) it's a bit doubtful that we'll get a 2650+ player, since there are only three in the U.S., and almost all of the money is conditional on a match victory by the GM. But we shall see. 
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-11 15:16
Shulman, Kamsky, Onischuk, Seriawan, and Nakamura are the ELITE chess players in America right now.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-11 18:07
     Kamsky and Ehlvest (he's U.S.#4 now, higher than Shulman, who's only 2600) have been informed of the offer, which now stands at about $5,000 for a match victory by the human grandmaster! Seirawan lives in Europe now. We'll soon find out if any grandmaster thinks he can win a match with all of these advantages. 
Parent - - By Legendary (***) Date 2007-04-11 18:31
I think Ehlvest is out of the picture due to last match, Unless he wants another beaten. Kamsky has some tricks up his sleeve for Rybka. Shulman, well he's just Shulman, he's already dealing with Rybka on chessgames.com. Nakamura claimed he can defeat Rybka on his good days, so let him prove himself.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-11 18:35
I'm not familiar with Shulman's results against Rybka. Can you provide some details please?
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2007-04-12 10:26
Larry,

Dzindzi is a very strong GM and has a lot of experience against machines. He live in U.S.A.

He is a very good candidate. If you are able to contact him, he will play the match. It has always been a pleasure for him, to play against the machines.

Regards,
Gambitto.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-04-12 12:57
I know Dzindzi well and can easily contact him, but I'm not sure he would be an acceptable candidate to our sponsors in view of his relatively low FIDE rating (2542) and age (63). He might not have the stamina anymore for long games, I'm not sure.
Parent - - By Berfomet (**) Date 2007-04-12 18:06
Rybka is a little bit drawish, what if the GMs aim for a draw and not for the win or just plays highly defensive? What are your views about this?
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