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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Interesting poll
- - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-07-04 21:48
There is an interesting poll in engine origins at Talkchess

http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44295

Should a clean Rybka to be allowed to play in non ICGA tournaments ?

Currently:

Yes   
  79%  [ 27 ]
No   
  20%  [ 7 ]

Voted : 34
Total Votes : 34
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-04 21:58
I read some of the comments. I think it is interesting-and, I especially like the way you phrased the polling question.
+1
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-07-05 02:36
Well, Lukas said they wouldn't participate in an ICGA tournament again even if they apologized, so allowing Rybka wouldn't make a difference anymore.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-05 05:37

> Well, Lukas said they wouldn't participate in an ICGA tournament again even if they apologized, so allowing Rybka wouldn't make a difference anymore.


And, justifiably so!

But, I don't think its a question of whether Vas should reconsider his decision not to participate.

The simplicity of the poll question for me goes to the heart of the matter.

When you consider that no Fruit code was ever found - and the only issue is the infraction of using Crafty in that one Tournament-when was Rybka ever really not clean?
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-06 23:52
Should a clean Rybka to be allowed to play in non ICGA tournaments ?
Yes 
   
80%   [ 52 ]
No 
   
20%   [ 13 ]

Voted : 65
Total Votes : 65

current poll numbers speak volumes.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2012-07-07 05:58
To be honest, I really think that these type of computer chess championships are dead.  I cannot imagine any interest in a computer tournament where all the Ippolit derivatives are allowed to play as they would give no chance for any of the other engine authors to be competitive (such as Hiarcs, Shredder, Crafty, etc....).  There is way too much politics in computer chess ... leave it to a bunch of nerds to **** up what was a very enjoyable pass time!  Of course there will always be an interest in a computer championship that includes the most powerful engines in the world sans political crap, but if the ICGA is anything to go by, the present politics want to tell "US" what the strongest engine by skewing rules and regulations to fit a particular result ... that can go back to the same crap hole it came from.  The ICGA is dead and trying to resurrect it would be like trying to resurrect someone from a grave that has been buried underground for a couple of years ... highly unpalatable!
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2012-07-07 15:07
I think they could have 2 classes. Commercial anything goes, programmer designates operator; and free open source, programmer designates operator. The closed source free could play in the commercial category if they don't wish to open their source. It would soon be pretty evident if you were cheating in the closed source, and everyone would know who the programmer was. Makes an even playing field for everyone.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-07 19:19
The first step would be to see resignations coming  from those holding  administrational positions at the ICGA.  That, I think , would  be sending a clear signal that there is a desire for  real change, and a desire to reinvigorate the hobby - maybe not so much with new blood,  but with a new mindset that is more inclusive and less restrictive. I'm not inferring that this would bring the ICGA back into prominence- only that it would signal the start of real competition again. It might even be grounds for extending the olive branch!
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2012-07-07 18:25

> the present politics want to tell "US" what the strongest engine is by skewing rules and regulations to fit a particular result ... that can go back to the same crap hole it came from.


Well said.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-14 19:29
Oh! The irony of those 14 votes. :grin:

Should a clean Rybka to be allowed to play in non ICGA tournaments ?
Yes 
   
79%   [ 53 ]
No 
   
20%   [ 14 ]
Voted : 67
Total Votes : 67
This poll does not expire
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-07-14 22:48
Very funny indeed.

Anyway, there is more good news.

http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php?p=473844#473844
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 01:47 Edited 2012-07-15 01:49
“The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.”
― Flannery O'Connor

Peter did the right thing! Now, it is up to those who voted " yes"  to also do the right thing and help support,  Peter.
Parent - - By Ray (****) Date 2012-07-15 08:09
Yes, the whole concept of:
- programmers deciding who can and cannot compete
- the tournament is just for the participants, not the audience

Both fundamentally flawed. In the first case,  totally ludicrous, you just vote out your strongest competitors or the programmers you don't like or are most jealous of, or have embarrassed you the most. And in the second case, without an audience, the tournaments are nothing, they may as well not exist.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2012-07-15 14:51
Exactly. So Peter Skinner has a choice:

A) Organise another tournament without the strongest programs, that nobody is interested in, which serves the egocentric wishes of a few programmers, and attracts a few CCC diehards at best;

or:

B) Organise a tournament with the strongest computer chess entities, which could lead to a renewed interest in computer chess, attracting more spectators plus the interest of websites like ChessVibes and make him 'the guy who stopped computer chess from dying'.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 15:11
I was under the impression that he already made the choice to include the strongest computer chess entities? What are we talking about here?
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2012-07-15 16:19
Yes, he has.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2012-07-15 16:45
OK, I missed that. Still, I think the choices I gave above, are rather accurate. Let yourself being taken hostage by the Hyatt squad and have computer chess die, or free the computer chess world of these destructive forces. It is good to hear Peter has chosen the 2nd route.
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 17:15 Edited 2012-07-15 17:22
I don't believe Hyatt or his cadre of zealots are  finished.  They most likely will focus on any weakeness they may perceive in Peter and exploit and explode them to their advantage. Peter will need all the help he can get. But he needs to stop provoking Robert Houdart about Houdini's origins. Either he is allowed to compete or no! Period.   That is just inciting  trouble. It just leaves the door open to more controversy.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) [nl] Date 2012-07-15 19:16
I have been doing some hours of reading on the 'Engine Origins' forum at CCC. Nice stuff. Especially from Ed, Chris, but also from Sven, Miguel, Ronald and Marcel to name a few. It is funny to see that they come to the same conclusion as we did on this forum, namely that Bob Hyatt just uses definitions and words that suit him and that as soon as he is boxed into a corner, he starts to write a lot of blah blah and/or uses different definitions to cover up his loss in yet another fight  :lol:

As far as I am concerned, Houdini can play in any computer chess tournament and Peter just has to accept a Houdini entrance, but Robert has been very clear that he is not interested in playing tournaments.

I don't believe Hyatt or his cadre of zealots are  finished.

Nope, Hyatt will repeatedly claim that the bishop PST in Crafty was never copied from Fruit, even when he is 115 years old :wink:
Parent - - By ernest (****) [fr] Date 2012-07-15 23:55

> but Robert has been very clear that he is not interested in playing tournaments.


Jeroen, please don't quote wrong!

Robert said:
Please don't enter Houdini in a tournament organized by someone calling it "abused stolen source code for monetary gain".
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=473932#473932
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-07-24 00:50
I suspect that if there was a respectable prize fund, Robert might enter. And if he isn't interested in participating without a financial stake, I certainly wouldn't hold it against him! :lol:
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 15:34
Ed, it is great that, Peter has "draw a line in the sand"  and made his decission to have his tournament be all inclusive- but the issue with him seems to be  his continued ambivalence toward some program he has deemed acceptable to run.

He really needs to stop getting into making value judgements on ANY program that may or may not run in his tournament - some of what he has said ends up being a value judgement on the programmer and I think , ultimately,  ends up being perceieved as a double standard.

It is no wonder some are holding their breath waiting for the other shoe to drop,  and for Peter to once again change his mind. He needs to learn to stop talking.
Parent - - By Homayoun_Sohrabi_M.D. (***) [mx] Date 2012-07-15 19:36
Everybody and their second cousins are doing tournaments now.    I don´t see what the fuss is all about.    It´s funny though to keep polling about whether Houdini should be allowed to compete when Houdart could absolutely careless about any of this.    They used Houdini at the official site for the recent WCC, that and the different rating lists is more than good enough for me to call Houdinin ´world  champion¨.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 21:06
But, everybody and their second cousins tournaments aren't of watershed significance as potentially the IWCCC Tournament can prove to be for the hobby.

Robert Houdart doesn't have to participate, and neither does Vas. But the fact that they both have been given authorization to participate,  vindicates and validates  both themselves and their respective programs. It turns the tables on those who would continue to  falsely adjudicated them to be  pariahs in computer chess community.

Robert can always change his mind if he so choses as can Vas down the road.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-07-24 00:52
Everybody and their second cousins

This is political correctness, run amok! The cliche you are looking for is: Every jerk and his brother... :lol:
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-07-15 21:42
I think right now Peter needs all the public support he can get, he will be flamed, roasted, scolded, if not public then in private.

Houdini: well, I am a bit conservative myself here so I can understand his sentiment. Where the Rybka investigators could only find 0.0 as a sign for code copying the origins of Houdini are overwhelming. Today I spend just one hour on the Houdini 1.0 and the Robolito 0085e binaries just checking for string similarities and quickly found both have the same code for illegal position testing, even the order of the error messages remained fully intact.

Robolito 0085e
.data:0044903C aKingWhite1     db 'king white != 1',0 
.data:0044904C aKingBlack1     db 'king black != 1',0 
.data:0044905C aQueenWhite9    db 'queen white > 9',0 
.data:0044906C aQueenBlack9    db 'queen black > 9',0 
.data:0044907C aRookWhite10    db 'rook white > 10',0 
.data:0044908C aRookBlack10    db 'rook black > 10',0 
.data:0044909C aChiaroWhite9   db 'chiaro white > 9',0
.data:004490B0 aChiaroBlack9   db 'chiaro black > 9',0
.data:004490C4 aDarkWhite9     db 'dark white > 9',0  
.data:004490D4 aDarkBlack9     db 'dark black > 9',0  
.data:004490E4 aBishopWhite10  db 'bishop white > 10',0
.data:004490F8 aBishopBlack10  db 'bishop black > 10',0
.data:0044910C aKnightWhite10  db 'knight white > 10',0
.data:00449120 aKnightBlack10  db 'knight black > 10',0
.data:00449134 aPawnWhite8     db 'pawn white > 8',0  
.data:00449144 aPawnBlack8     db 'pawn black > 8',0  
.data:00449154 aPieceWhite16   db 'piece white > 16',0
.data:00449168 aPieceBlack16   db 'piece black > 16',0
.data:0044917C aPawnRankOneOrE db 'pawn rank one or eight',0
.data:00449194 aCastleIllegale db 'castle illegale',0 
.data:004491A4 aWhiteCaptureRe db 'white capture re',0
.data:004491B8 aBlackCattureRe db 'black catture re',0

Houdini 1.0
.rdata:0043A2C0 aOneWhiteKingRe db 'ONE white king required',0
.rdata:0043A2D8 aOneBlackKingRe db 'ONE black king required',0
.rdata:0043A2F0 aTooManyWhiteQu db 'Too many white queens',0
.rdata:0043A308 aTooManyBlackQu db 'Too many black queens',0 
.rdata:0043A320 aTooManyWhiteRo db 'Too many white rooks',0
.rdata:0043A338 aTooManyBlackRo db 'Too many black rooks',0
.rdata:0043A350 aTooManyLightSq db 'Too many light-squared white bishops',0
.rdata:0043A378 aTooManyLight_0 db 'Too many light-squared black bishops',0
.rdata:0043A3A0 aTooManyDarkSqu db 'Too many dark-squared white bishops',0
.rdata:0043A3C4 aTooManyDarkS_0 db 'Too many dark-squared black bishops',0
.rdata:0043A3E8 aTooManyWhiteBi db 'Too many white bishops',0
.rdata:0043A400 aTooManyBlackBi db 'Too many black bishops',0
.rdata:0043A418 aTooManyWhiteKn db 'Too many white knights',0
.rdata:0043A430 aTooManyBlackKn db 'Too many black knights',0
.rdata:0043A448 aTooManyWhitePa db 'Too many white pawns',0
.rdata:0043A460 aTooManyBlackPa db 'Too many black pawns',0
.rdata:0043A478 aTooManyWhitePi db 'Too many white pieces',0
.rdata:0043A490 aTooManyBlackPi db 'Too many black pieces',0
.rdata:0043A4A8 aPawnAtRank1Or8 db 'Pawn at rank 1 or 8',0
.rdata:0043A4BC aIllegalCastlin db 'Illegal castling',0
.rdata:0043A4D0 aBlackKingCanBe db 'Black king can be captured',0
.rdata:0043A4EC aWhiteKingCanBe db 'White king can be captured',0

----------

I don't understand why Robert thinks he can fool the CC world but he probably passed the point of no return and he might fear Vas for going after him. Since the latter is unlikely to happen I tend to agree with a proposal another programmer lately made, accept only one representative of the Ippo/Robo/Fire/Ivanhoe etc. family. They should compete mutually who the representative will be, no doubt Houdini at this moment. Like it or not, Robert has done something remarkable.
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 22:42

> I don't understand why Robert thinks he can fool the CC world


Maybe he knows he's not fooling anyone!

This was the path he chose to take for reasons alone he can only explain. I'd  would much rather  like to know the reasoning for his chosing this path than his confirming the path taken. 

But, would his admission change anything? :roll: I doubt it!  We would hear just a litany of "told you so!"

Something everyone already knew anyhow. Would that make his contribution any the more palatable for those who already had their minds made up? I seriously doubt it!
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-16 22:18
:wink:
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-15 23:08 Edited 2012-07-16 22:09
It feels likely to me that the Ippolit movement has a malevolence for the commercial end of the computer chess. 

What Robert Houdart did was snatch up what dubious victory they garnered ([edit for clarity] " Ippolit garnered "most likely by dubious means) and turn it in upon the Ippolit's, in  creating a viable commercial, if not outstanding, computer chess program.

I think that warrants some kudos.  

Or have I missed something?
Parent - - By keoki010 (Silver) [us] Date 2012-07-17 00:09
He definitely improved it regardless. In my opinion it and Critter are the 2 best programs for CC analysis. And both Houdart and Vida; at least respond to their user base! :smile:
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2012-07-17 00:32
No shit! Robbo!  How damned  long as it been since "Ippolit"  and "Talk-us-to-death-chess" been   beating this dead horse for all it is worth ; and only a few have really been able to do  anything of  any real significants with the code since it miraculously came into existance.

I'm surprised that haven't deified the f**king thing. Giving it a virgin birth -crowing it the  Messiah  chess engine of all computer chess.   "Stolen"  Rescued is more like it.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Interesting poll

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