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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Advancement in Analysis Or Elo?
Poll Advancement in Analysis Or Elo? (Closed)
Elo strength 22 42%
Advancement in the Development of Analysis 31 58%
- - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-15 17:35 Edited 2012-04-15 17:39
Which do you prefer - I left out both considerations as an option for obvious reasons. If you have to make a choice which would it be?
Parent - - By tomgdrums (****) Date 2012-04-15 20:47
I pick analysis because I think that is more beneficial to (most) users and I think a natural by product of improved analysis would be gains in ELO but I don't know that it would work the other way around.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-15 21:41 Edited 2012-04-15 21:52
I think your reasoning is good.

At what point does a chess engine with a superior development in analysis out weigh the demand for a superior development in elo strength? 

Do we tend to value one over and above the other - if not by expectation alone- when we are looking at and for strictly elo gain?  Or, is elo gain alone the true measure of a chess engines worth  when it comes to top seed chess engines?

I'm just posing the questions here! That is the purpose of the poll.

Perhaps this is something even developers might want to look at?!  I'm not sure if this would be antithetical to playchess enthusiasts.:smile:
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-04-15 22:52
i believe the two go together.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-16 00:26 Edited 2012-04-16 00:32
At what level?

For instance - you stated Houdini lacked in analysis compared to Rybka - yet  Rybka lacks in comparison elo!
Parent - By InspectorGadget (****) [za] Date 2012-04-23 17:21

> you stated Houdini lacked in analysis compared to Rybka - yet  Rybka lacks in comparison elo!


Good one :lol:
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-04-17 08:22

> i believe the two go together.


With exceptions, like Stockfish that I failed to use for analysis until the community built the Gran2 series version that worked better for analysis (despite lower elo) so that I recommend Stockfish 2.11 PA GTB Gran2 over latest Stockfish from the developers, even though the latter has higher elo.

Another example is Critter Session File that is able to store analysis (learning), and I think it's much more useful that it would be if say, instead of Session File, it was 40 elo stronger. Until recently Rybka 3 was my favorite Rybka, thanks to being able to save analysis via Persistent Hash, as I think having a strong engine around to store analysis is very important, mainly in missed transpositions by an analysis file, and because other engines forget. This role has now been overtaken by Critter 1.4, which has finally obsoleted Rybka 3, something I think is a much more important event than by how much elo Houdini 2 surpasses Rybka 4.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2012-04-17 17:03
As an engine user I favor quality of analysis over anything else. But I don't know of any better objective measure of it than Elo rating at intermediate time controls (like 40/20' or 15' + 15" or such). Of course I have subjective opinions on the issue. So in Komodo we aim for quality of analysis, but we can only measure it by intermediate level elo.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-04-19 03:49
Quality of analysis improves if the engine can remember the positions analyzed as the user interacts and after the user unloads the engine, so I hope Komodo supports Position Learning on the future.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-04-23 14:23 Edited 2012-04-23 18:38
I think that most users are not overly concerned with elo strength and respond more positively when  the chess engine is superior in acheiving  advancement in analysis over elo strength.

I would suggest that in the commercial realm their is a potential for consumers to buy the analytically stronger chess engine over the chess engine  that shows elo gain but is lacking in superior analysis.

Perhaps what will separate the amateur programmers from the pro's will be those that are capable of  developing a chess engine that exhibits both qualities- unique to their own style in analysis as top seed engines- then the focus can truly remain on elo alone.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-06 17:14 Edited 2012-05-06 17:29
Consider this Analysis over enlargement! More specifically! Will this boost in enlargement affect her game play in analysis with on court concentration. Or, give her an added boost of self image confidence apparently lacking before the enhancement. This could just leave her on her back! :yell:
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-08 20:31 Edited 2012-05-08 20:36
The "Elo"  proponents  just don't seem to be able to get it up! :twisted:

(there might be some sad irony in that!)
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-10 21:06
Elo strength  20  41%                                                                     (D-Cup needed visual stimulation +sum to get it up? ) 
Advancement in the Development of Analysis  29  59%        (C-cup more focused on foreplay and tactical strategy? )
Parent - - By keoki010 (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-05-11 00:54
This is possibly the best post on the whole forum!!!:wink:
Parent - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-05-30 02:53
it can be better if kournikova was naked :lol:
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-17 14:06
I would say Vas still has a reasonably strong market if he continues to advance a chess engine strong in analysis. At the same time Houdini with its advancement in elo has little to worry for the time being. Actually, I think the field is wide open with Komodo possibly showing some new advancements in analysis along with Critter.  In the long run elo strength may not be the safest niche to occupy.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-29 19:36 Edited 2012-05-29 19:52
Judging from previous polls there might be at best 10 more member votes out there to decide this issue before it is closed.



D-cup lovers might consider this wonder product- The   "HOUDINI EXE-O-MATIC ELO INFLATER "

         Houdini exe-o-matic elo inflater

(Ummh?! Role model issues presented here!!!! These two birds don't look Japanese!:roll: Oh! Heck! Houdini isn't really-well, a commemorative of Erik Weisz either! eh! :twisted::cool::grin:)
Parent - - By Labyrinth (****) [us] Date 2012-05-30 00:35
Those girls are pretty. I can't say the same about the Chinese language though :-)
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-30 00:38
Is that what that is-Chinese?:lol: It's so bad it's hilarious. :smile:
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-05-30 02:19

> I can't say the same about the Chinese language though :-)


麼你說這是什不漂亮嗎?
Parent - - By Labyrinth (****) [us] Date 2012-05-30 08:59
In my opinion they have one of the worst writing systems on the planet, even if the characters can be quite beautiful.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-05-30 15:29
Touché.
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-05-30 02:51
what stupid idea...to obtain,what?that when you get naked the girl,you see the fact,and you can see all is a lie?

is better spend their time looking for a guy that doesnt care about small tits,instead of lying them

or go to have sex with a gigolo,that doesnt care how are you phisically
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-30 14:52
May I assume you to be a...

C-cup man translating that over to Advancement in analysis over elo...perhap? Or, are you just complaining over the stupidity of  coming acros a chick who happens to have a padded bra and lacks the ELO you were expecting like... some regarding((Houdini 1.5a over Houdini 2.0c)):yell::wink::twisted::roll::cool:
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-05-30 14:56
oh no...is more simply,i was admiring the gift that god gave to those girls :lol:
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-30 14:59
I see! Thanks for NOT clarafying your position! :smile:
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-05-30 15:02
oh,you want to know my position...here is my position:

if the engine is improved a lot,i preffer the elo improvement;if the engine isnt improved a lot elo points,i preffer the advance in analisis
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-30 15:05
That _doesn't make sense.

An engine IS in proved by an Advancement in analysis or it may be improved by an advancement in elo- which do you perfer!!!! Stop dancing around the question!
Parent - - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-05-30 18:51
i like to dance Robert,and i like more if i dance with a pretty girl,because that means that after dance,i... :lol:
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-30 19:00
That might be so! But here you are dancing with me! And I am not so pretty and not a Girlie man! :yell:
Parent - By Barnard (Bronze) Date 2012-05-30 19:12
oh...someone can find love i  the most hidden places Robert :)
Parent - - By Gr00vy (**) [us] Date 2012-05-30 18:24
This is the same argument that was going around pre-fruit and especially pre-rybka 3-4.   Indeed, it was felt that we had hit the wall in engine elo development, and that analysis, and...  Human Bad Playing were the next frontiers of chess analysis.

When there was a substantial gain in ELO, such as a full class difference between the previous front-runners and the new guy, that the change in class represented a closer approximation to the "truth" of the chess position.   In that particular case, the answer was way more important than the analysis of the answer.  Now, modicums of improvement, (though several 10's of points of ELO is NOT insignificant), are bettered couched in analysis to provide better understanding of the process and validity since we can no longer simply depend on it being the only unassailable "truth".

I think the answer is, I want an engine that is surprisingly and class better than the previous guy.  Something that parts the sky and reveals things we just weren't really doing as correctly and efficiently as before.  Something as surprising as Rybka.  I want this more than anything...

In the absence of this, and it actually may be very difficult to do from the engine standpoint, is better analysis.  The problem with better analysis, is that I want it presented so that *I* can understand it.  And it is very difficult to get there.  What I want from a chess engine analysis, is to be like an Andrew Martin chess base video.  That in a given position, I can have the underlying ideas of the position, underlying strategic ideas, underlying threats, and ultimately the tactical truth of the position.   So that eventually, *I* can see it, and ultimately, that I can learn from it and put it into my own games.  I want to become a better chess player.

So first, the truth, second the teacher.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-05-30 18:56

> This is the same argument


Which argument? There are two -as you delineate.

Rybka was able at one instance to satisfy both(Rybka 3 the last version to do so). Since then, Rybka has fallen from grace in the Elo category. Question for most is_will a ""significant advancement in analysis"" over loss of elo gain  satisfy the voracious need of most for elo gain. Judging from this poll-I'd say "yes".  But how much of a significant advancement in analysis  would be acceptable to warrant buying the engine?
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Advancement in Analysis Or Elo?

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