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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / WBCCC 2012 / WBCCC 2012: natmaku vs ppipper 1/2 - 1/2
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Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-05 16:49
I might play moro/shirov move.
Parent - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-05 16:54
ok, here we go Nfd7 posted.

I won't be able to see your move and post till tonight/tomorrow. Enjoy!
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-05 16:55
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqkb1r/pppn1ppp/4p3/3pP3/3P4/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 5

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "30 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes"]
[BlackTime "29 days, 5 hours, 40 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7"]
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-05 17:00
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqkb1r/pppn1ppp/4p3/3pP3/3P1P2/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQKBNR b KQkq - 0 5

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "30 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes"]
[BlackTime "29 days, 5 hours, 40 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4"]
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-05 17:04
Black with 41.3% and 35.6% draws.  Typical for the French.
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-05 18:05
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/4p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 6

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "30 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes"]
[BlackTime "29 days, 5 hours, 35 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5"]
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2012-02-05 18:39

> ok, here we go Nfd7 posted.


> I won't be able to see your move and post till tonight/tomorrow. Enjoy!


That night went by in a hurry, :smile:
Parent - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-05 18:48
you are right. My family changed their plans... :cool:
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-05 22:20
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/4p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/2N2N2/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 0 6

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "29 days, 20 hours, 46 minutes"]
[BlackTime "29 days, 5 hours, 35 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3"]
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-06 03:44
Holding steady.  Black with 41.3% and 36.0% draws.
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-06 04:24
The following moves from this position are quite nuanced.  In my analysis the chess engines were not particularly reliable guides in my study of the opposite side castling positions that may occur; however, there is quite a lot of practice from this position, such that the move orders from these positions have been well worked out.  I did a lot of analysis on these positions some months ago.  My assessment given best play from Black from this position was +/=/= and objectively very drawish except for one particularly critical line that was and still is very unclear to me.  The onus is on White here to not allow Black to equalize quickly based on the pressure on d4; White can easily misstep slightly.  For many of my openings databases (many of which I created and worked on starting a few months ago)  I used the Chesspub theory and my openings book + database as my starting point and work out the ideas from there on my own and with an engine [although not in positions in which lines are less established, in which case I had to be more diligent in my analysis] - I have not committed many of these plans and concrete lines and positions to memory yet although doing so would expedite my chess understanding.
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-06 09:44 Edited 2012-02-06 09:59
I mostly agree with this opinion Matt. Except that I have much more than one line that may be unclear.

But of course, with perfect play on both side, this opening will be 1/2-1/2, a very good result beating databases statistic.
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-06 20:34
Of course.  I have a few lines that are unclear but likely not promising for more than a draw for White.  Anyway, what natmaku has played is interesting, transposing into the variation in which White plays 5.Nce2 with Black having spent a move on a6.  Maybe I would have preferred to play the main with Be3 in which White gets a slightly better endgame, but the text assures a hard fight!
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-06 09:10
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqkb1r/1p1n1ppp/p3p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/2N2N2/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - 0 7

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "29 days, 20 hours, 46 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 19 hours, 44 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 a6"]
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-06 10:31
hmmm.... early 6.... a6 w/o 6. ...Nc6 7. Be3 it seems this is an accelerated a6/b5 idea. Need to check first it I can take advantage of this move order. :cool:
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-06 14:35
yes, all I am trying to do is drive you to the lines that I play better.

But... you'd better be careful and don't play as bad as all my opponents use to do! :wink:
Parent - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-06 14:49
The problem is am more bad player (or weaker) than the one who played you against the french :cool:...now seriously I believe that you made an inaccuracy with your move order. Now I will punish you because of this! j/k
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-06 14:55
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqkb1r/1p1n1ppp/p3p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/5N2/PPP1N1PP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 0 7

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "29 days, 16 hours, 1 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 19 hours, 44 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 a6 7.Ne2"]
Parent - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-06 14:58 Edited 2012-02-06 16:18
This is in line of my overall strategy of playing more of a strategic type of game. Now i have the option to play either on both flanks! :cool: seems 6. ...a6 was a waste of move.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-07 00:21
Black with 40.7% and 22.3% draws.
- - By Kamesh (***) [in] Date 2012-02-06 16:12
Good luck Al.
Good wishes CHAMP (ppipper) :p
Parent - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-07 09:47
hello kamesh, thank you very much. I hope you are doing well and recovering!
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-07 09:25
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqk2r/1p1nbppp/p3p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/5N2/PPP1N1PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - 0 8

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "29 days, 16 hours, 1 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 a6 7.Ne2 Be7"]
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-07 09:44
This is a golden opportunity black allows me to fortify my center. The plan of a successful flank attack will be more realizable. I was expecting 7. ...cd4.
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-07 09:51
As I see it, ...a6 is a waste of tempo if black is playing cxd, since white will recapture with Ne. Otherwise black will recover his tempo when Ne2 is willing to move.

Black has not equalize yet, though
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-07 09:55
Nice approach ppipper so you are planning to play under a form of a barricade (hide) :wink:. I haven't consulted my engines just want to play according to position without the aid of engines, I might consult a super gm for this position tonight!
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-07 10:09
I hope your super GM is not the same one I am going to consult also tonight!! :grin:
Parent - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [ph] Date 2012-02-07 10:13
hahaha. :lol:
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-07 21:58
Ten games left in book. 4 draws, 5 white wins, 1 black win.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-08 23:25
I'm pretty sure this is all "homework" and the strategical idea to force the opponent into rare territory looks like just the risk needed to play for a win or at least aiming for a fighting game, and the position currently looks indeed double-edged and pretty interesting... Go José go!!!
Parent - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-09 00:21
I always feel stronger when you are around :wink:
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 03:15
I doubt. I don't find a6 as a useful move. You can at once play b5 without it actually and can play a5 which saves a valuable tempo.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-10 05:46
"I don't find a6 as a useful move."

Its just natural that you don't understand all moves/plans/ideas of a stronger player. :-)
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 05:56
I think your a big fan of ppiper as you kept on buttering him. :smile:
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-10 06:06
I'm a big fan of everyone providing aggressive/fresh/creative/entertaining/inspired chess... :-), and i have a pretty good deal earning myself 0.10$ a post making you nervous! ;-)
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 06:51
Nervous? lolz.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-11 13:32
"Nervous? lolz."

We're waiting for your next bl..... eh move!!! ;-)
Parent - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-11 15:03
:roll:
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-10 05:59 Edited 2012-02-10 06:06
I think the idea is to draw the endgame if natmaku entered the main lines with ...a6 followed by Be3 and Qb6 I think, my stem game is Kasparov- Radjabov (or was it Karjakin?) I don't remember, the endgame is better for White, but is a simple draw in corr.  And if White does not enter the main lines then ppipper gets good or sufficient counterplay anyway.  In the normal Nce2 lines White is perhaps a shade better, and with a tempo more, still slightly better, but the tempi really may not be worth so much here in such a closed position - but of course White has slightly more space.    It was this type of position where Black can kill the pace of the game, and try to outmaneuver the opponent.  I used to play these lines occasionally as Black, but at some point I got tired of suffering kingside attacks, just not particularly appealing positions for me to play OTB relative to more active options.

In my limited experience with the French, the nice thing about it, the first 10-15 moves are somewhat simple, and you probably won't go too wrong.  But after that things usually get difficult for awhile - depending on the variation and your opponent's knowledge of course.  Curiously, lots of players who like and excel at Sicilian positions really don't seem to play the positions in the French particularly well in my experience at every level of chess I've seen; in part I think this is because if White plays 3.Nc3, White has to be prepared for so many different positions.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-10 06:16
One of the underlying strategical ideas might be even simplier: natmaku is known to cling on his books/games - which even leads to extremes like whole book-draws with the white pieces (see here for example: http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=22897), so forcing him out of the book seems to be a plausible idea! :-)
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-10 07:26
You may be right.  White could transposed back to the main line, probably, although 7.Ne2 is interesting.  Slight nuances in Black's move choice in these positions usually lead to positions of similar type and evaluation.  They probably won't be in book too long, looks like it's going to shape up into a good fight here. :smile:
Parent - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-10 08:22
I am not sure you can play b5 straight
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-10 03:10
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

rnbqk2r/1p1nbppp/p3p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/2P2N2/PP2N1PP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 0 8

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "26 days, 23 hours, 19 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 a6 7.Ne2 Be7 8.c3"]
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-10 07:05
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "natmaku"]
[Black "ppipper"]

r1bqk2r/1p1nbppp/p1n1p3/2ppP3/3P1P2/2P2N2/PP2N1PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - 0 9

Game 185377. In progress
[WhiteTime "26 days, 23 hours, 19 minutes"]
[BlackTime "27 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes"]
[Moves "1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 a6 7.Ne2 Be7 8.c3 Nc6"]
- - By Master Om (*****) [in] Date 2012-02-10 08:15 Edited 2012-02-10 08:18
I can see a g3! and Bh3!? and may be Kf2!!
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 08:32
yes even g4/h4...
Parent - - By Master Om (*****) [in] Date 2012-02-10 09:16
If f5 then....
Parent - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 09:59
Ok seems your g3 is the best try.
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2012-02-10 13:46
pls don't be offended, but are you talking about future moves?
Parent - - By Master Om (*****) [in] Date 2012-02-10 14:04
Ya!! Possible ones.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / WBCCC 2012 / WBCCC 2012: natmaku vs ppipper 1/2 - 1/2
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