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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / WBCCC 2012 / WBCCC 2012: 2.2 NATIONAL12 vs Schachmatt 1/2 - 1/2
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Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-02-07 00:54
just hope i get it right as i said above.:smile:
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-07 00:55
I think black is already a lot better than it should be, white somehow failed to address blacks real weakness which is the kings-side (especially as black is virtually forced to rochade short, which white wasn't). While 6. O-O is for sure the main book-move (as it is engine's primary choice - engines always want to play O-O! :-)), i think the idea as a whole may be to calm... "may be" because still its just white able to play for a win. Besides that white may also regret not having played c4...
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-02-07 01:03
if white attempts to attack earlier he runs out of ammunition,good to see your interest in the game though.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-07 01:30 Edited 2012-02-07 23:45
Most likely there are a lot of ways leading to Roma ;-)...
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-07 01:48
Interesting - The key difference there is the pawn on c4, in which case White has reason to like his c3 knight and light squared bishop.  Here h4 causes problems when Black develops the g8 knight to e7 instead of f6, when White has not castled yet; I recall that h4 is strong in a g3 (Fianchetto) Modern in which Black does not develop the King's knight to f6, but e7.  In the game position White has already castled so h4 now is a bit double-edged.  :wink:  I suppose it would have been an interesting idea to play earlier, perhaps, but then it's a completely different game, and then I likely develop Nf6, the only principle I'm really aware for such a position is that h4-h5 inserted early in a Sicilian Dragon, this favors Black, in a Modern to play h5 on h4 is okay in the short term, sometimes it's not necessary (on h5-g5 followed by Nf6 or Pe5).  However on playing g5, Black has to be wary of Pf4, this may be a theme I'm looking out for in my game.
Parent - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-07 02:01 Edited 2012-02-07 02:12
Thanks for your very interesting insights - as always a pleasure to read and a valuable contribution to this tournament! Of course we're here also talking about an alternative white system - as opposed to the system black shows us here.

Edit: This is one of my favorite games in this round, will be very interesting to follow... i'm not as pessimistic about black's chances as i was already earlier... ;-), still i think the likelyhood of generating position-improving moves is still with white short- and mid-term...
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-07 01:18
I wouldn't play a Hippo, as my structure is named, unless White had developed his knights on Nf3 and c3.  And even then there are exceptions in which I would not play it.  White's doing well enough here of course, but things can begin to get a bit sharp and weird soon.  Black has a few not very well known plans in these positions that are not simple to find via a chess engine or a games database.  It's more difficult for White to play a position in which 10 moves according to a chess engine are rated about the same, and then the best ideas sometimes have to be found manually, i.e. they're not found in the engine's top 10 move choices.  My objective opinion is that White is likely doing slightly better but that is all - I think Black's play move-by-move is completely justified.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-02-07 01:39
nothing wrong with your play,its just not my play.Vive la difference.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-02-07 11:35
thats quite a fortress you have set up there,very difficult to play against.
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-07 21:20
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnnpbp/pp1pp1p1/3P4/P1B1P3/2N1BN2/1PP2PPP/R2Q1RK1 b kq - 0 9

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "28 days, 3 hours, 37 minutes"]
[BlackTime "29 days, 1 hours, 17 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5"]
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-07 21:23
If nothing else Matt you are making Paul think long on his moves. :smile: I don't think I have seen anyone be this much a head of him on the clock. :lol:
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-08 00:38
Yes he would have already completed the game by now last year. :surprised:
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-07 21:28
Out of the 12 moves I had seen in that position you picked the #1 choice, Paul.  (There were maybe six plausible moves.)

Black with 28.6% and 28.6% draws.
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-08 00:00 Edited 2012-02-08 00:35
I'm surprised by this move.  I thought that White should play this move only after I had played Bb7, now on c8 it is more useful.  EDIT:  I may not have had to play Bb7, c6 is possible in some positions with the idea of Qc7 and Pb5 or c5.  Kf8-g8-h7 is an idea also.  g5 followed by Ng6 is sometimes an interesting possibility in these positions.  There are other ideas possible, too, when Black plays the bishop to b7.  However, now we have an unusual King's Indian Defense structure.
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-08 00:07
I'm also a little surprised by its early appearance, but you have to be very careful now and trace down a few branches you have including open lines&diagonales...
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-08 00:59
For me, it's been very straightforward because I am playing within my preparation and possibly tempo or two up relative to a few lines in my preparation, in which d5 is played with a few other moves inserted. :cool:  Nevertheless the assessment of the position is likely still +/=/=.  Will have to make some decisions starting with my next move.  Thanks for your interest.
Parent - - By BigBen (****) Date 2012-02-08 08:08

>I'm surprised by this move.


Personally I would have prob gone with 9.Qd2 (Rfe1!?)

Certain engines really like 9.d5 with my DB showing 2 main replies but 1 looks very dangerous for black

Regards
Parent - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-08 23:01
I think the idea behind the text-move was maybe the awareness that the opponent is highly attracted by KID-structures and e5 was highly expected :-)...
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2012-02-07 21:48
This is kind of like my game with David, White looks good, but the final results say otherwise. Paul may be taking his time because he, like any good player, senses danger ahead.
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-02-07 21:52
i am trying to get a win in a very drawish setup.:smile:
Parent - - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-07 23:45
71.4% with 28.6% draws for white after just 9 moves is not what i would call a "very drawish setup"... :-), its more a free entry to Disneyland... so prove us that white wins! ;-)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-08 01:33
We're too far out on the tree to consider the statistics definitive.  All we can say is that this position has worked for white before.
Parent - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-08 03:15
Well, 71.4% hasn't anything definitive in it per mathematical definition, definitive can be just 100%,0% or 50% with all games thereof drawn - underlying a high quantity of games, in best case just high quality ones.
Parent - - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-08 01:36
If you had to do it over again would you have tried a different setup?
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-08 02:49
I'm happy with my position.  I played ...e5 a while back but the move has not been posted on the forum.
Parent - By TheHug (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-08 03:23
That is weird I see that move was played 2 hours ago, surprised it didn't post.
- - By Garvin Gray (****) Date 2012-02-08 08:45
National12, are you seeing 9. ... e5 in xfcc play?
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2012-02-08 08:50
i got it.
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 08:55
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnnpbp/pp1p2p1/3Pp3/P1B1P3/2N1BN2/1PP1QPPP/R4RK1 b kq - 0 10

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 20 hours, 12 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2"]
- By Garvin Gray (****) Date 2012-02-08 09:22
Ok, both 9. ... e5 and 10. Qe2 have been played. Strange event.
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 10:00
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnnpb1/pp1p2pp/3Pp3/P1B1P3/2N1BN2/1PP1QPPP/R4RK1 w kq - 0 11

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 20 hours, 12 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 23 hours, 1 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6"]
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2012-02-08 23:47
Novelty move.  First seen in JuanMatus-AlefZero, 1-0, FICS, 2006.05.24.  (Rare indeed that a FICS game be the root game in a competition at this level.)
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 04:42
Black can save a tempo if he had foreseen white plan of knight maneuver e1/d3/b4 (a very deep plan by paul). Better was 10. ...0-0 the h6 move is not required IMHO, i think black idea was to prevent Ng5 once f5 push is made.
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-10 04:51
On 10...0-0 Qd2 and I don't have f5 bc Ng5 or any counterplay
Parent - - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-10 05:09
I see, I was analyzing without the aid of engine though.
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-10 05:45
That's fine. :smile:  I'm going to try analyzing the current position with a few different free engines I downloaded (Critter, Komodo, Houdini 1.5, Stockfish) and test how well they get through the complications in the key positions.  Rybka does not seem to see quite so quickly long tactical lines as a few others on my old laptop computer.  In the current position, he chess engines are suggesting Bb7 and c5 for Black, for many moves now, which really doesn't make sense to a human, and it is as suicidal as it looks because White has more space on the queenside and Black's pawn structure is weak there.  Good news is, my opponent, too, will have to play through many of the lines for White and Black manually, which I am doing and using DPA at key points if necessary when I'm doing other stuff.

I would have played 10...h6 almost on any White move. 11.Nh4 I thought was slightly problematic, with the idea of g3 and f4 and discouraging f5.  On that Kf8-g7, Bf6 (threatening Bxh4), and h5-h4 would be my likely plan, and Black looks to be doing quite fine. The text 11.Ne1 is more standard however.
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 13:35
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnnpb1/pp1p2pp/3Pp3/P1B1P3/2N1B3/1PP1QPPP/R3NRK1 b kq - 0 11

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 17 hours, 39 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 23 hours, 1 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1"]
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 17:35
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnn1b1/pp1p2pp/3Ppp2/P1B1P3/2N1B3/1PP1QPPP/R3NRK1 w kq - 0 12

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 17 hours, 39 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 20 hours, 1 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1 f5"]
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-08 17:59
11.Nh4 was interesting as a repetition is possible after Ng8 or Bf6 (and then knight back to f3) or play continues if 0-0 or Kf8 by Black, my preference probably Kf8.
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 19:00
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnn1b1/pp1p2pp/3Ppp2/P1B1P3/2N1BP2/1PP1Q1PP/R3NRK1 b kq - 0 12

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 17 hours, 15 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 20 hours, 1 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1 f5 12.f3"]
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 20:40
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnn1b1/pp1p2pp/3Pp3/P1B1Pp2/2N1BP2/1PP1Q1PP/R3NRK1 w kq - 0 13

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 17 hours, 15 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 19 hours, 22 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1 f5 12.f3 f4"]
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2012-02-08 21:23
More locking of the position, :(  It is probably the best move, I am just commenting "humanly". I would rather give up a few tenth's of a pawn to keep an open position, e.g. pawn exchanges. This kind of a position usually results in a long drawn out series of moving back and forth behind your own lines. Good for Black if he is trying to slow White down so he can complete his development in peace, but from human eyes, I hate these kind of games, as do the spectators! :smile: Someone will have to make some human moves here I thinks.
Parent - - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-08 22:24
Maybe you're right, but this position can heat up very quickly too!
Parent - By Turbo (***) Date 2012-02-08 23:04
"this position can heat up very quickly too!"

I also think so, especially as you guys are playing like the house is burnin'! ;-)
Parent - - By Scott (****) Date 2012-02-09 02:26
True... Just my style, I would have given up the two tenths and played 12. exf5 removing one of the defenders to the Black King and opening up lines for the advantage in development. Plus it kind of takes the wind out of Black's pawn storm. But that's just me, :smile:
Parent - By Schachmatt (****) [us] Date 2012-02-09 02:46 Edited 2012-02-09 03:06
It's what I expected also.  I probably would have played ...gxf5 with the idea of f4-f3 and sacrificing a pawn, given that I find something convincing after gxf5 f4 (and I think e4, followed Bxc3 in some positions and attack Nf6-g4 Qe8-h5 or h5-h4 etc is very acceptable)  The engines like the position after ...gxf5 for White, but given time and some moves, I've analyzed that Black has excellent compensation for a pawn in some lines.  White has many tries, but none seem to lead to anything - I'm not going to outline White's plans at the moment and Black's counters, and there are many possible plans, although nothing seems particularly good for White, of course given that I play correctly.
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 22:05
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bqk2r/2pnn1b1/pp1p2pp/3Pp3/P1B1Pp2/2N2P2/1PP1QBPP/R3NRK1 b kq - 0 13

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 16 hours, 53 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 19 hours, 22 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1 f5 12.f3 f4 13.Bf2"]
- - By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-08 22:25
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bq1rk1/2pnn1b1/pp1p2pp/3Pp3/P1B1Pp2/2N2P2/1PP1QBPP/R3NRK1 w - - 0 14

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 16 hours, 53 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 20 hours, 0 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1 f5 12.f3 f4 13.Bf2 O-O"]
Parent - By Wrath of the Titans (****) [sa] Date 2012-02-09 01:09
Black got a favorable version ok KID where he can lunch his standard attacking setup. The knight at e1 and bishop at c4 is out of place. I cant find a plan for white whereas black plan is plain and simple.
- By ChessPlanet Server Date 2012-02-09 06:30
[Event "WBCCC 2012"]
[White "NATIONAL12"]
[Black "Schachmatt"]

r1bq1rk1/2pnn1b1/pp1p2pp/3Pp3/P1B1Pp2/2NN1P2/1PP1QBPP/R4RK1 b - - 0 14

Game 185378. In progress
[WhiteTime "27 days, 9 hours, 51 minutes"]
[BlackTime "28 days, 20 hours, 0 minutes"]
[Moves "1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.Bc4 e6 6.O-O Ne7 7.Be3 Nd7 8.a4 b6 9.d5 e5 10.Qe2 h6 11.Ne1 f5 12.f3 f4 13.Bf2 O-O 14.Nd3"]
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / WBCCC 2012 / WBCCC 2012: 2.2 NATIONAL12 vs Schachmatt 1/2 - 1/2
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