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- - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-02-02 23:25
Much discussed lately, here are some of his words:

Ed

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Indeed, their reports show that there are extensive differences between the two implementations, like Rybka's use of a bitboard. They argue that those changes are mechanical transformations of the Fruit implementation, and therefore not a new implementation of the uncopywriteable algorithms expressed in Fruit but a derivative work in the copyright sense. Lexmark International, Inc. v. Static Control Components, Inc. accepts that conversion of a function to lookup table, or rearranging terms in an expression are not by themselves original acts. However, the transformations in Rybka go well beyond mechanical changes at the call graph level.

They have instead gone up to a higher level of abstraction shown that the code in Fruit, with different input parameters than the Fruit defaults, can generate numbers which after post-processing match numbers used in Rybka. They have stated that the order of certain actions, where the order should be arbitrary, is consistent between the two programs.

While this was enough to convince the judges that Rybka contained unacknowledged algorithmic influence from Fruit in the fashion required by the rules, this argument is not sufficient to show copyright infringement. Here too the comparison method should be validated by applying it to other programs which use the same algorithmic approach as Fruit and which are known to not have a shared copyright history. The Rybka investigators have failed to do this.

Functional similarity by itself does not show copyright infringement. The clean room design model in programming is a well-understood method of using reverse engineering to create a new implementation which does not infringe on copyrights or trade secrets. One group of people reverse engineer the software and develop a design document which is reviewed by a lawyer to make sure that no copyrighted material is included. The document is passed to another group of people to implement, where the people in the second group were selected because they have no knowledge of the original implementation. An real-life example is OpenOffice, which is a clean-room implementation of Microsoft Word and is close enough in functionality that people can switch from one program to the other with little trouble.

Rybka was not developed as a clean-room reimplementation of Fruit, and the author has long acknowledged an intensive review of the Fruit source. The point here is only to show that functional similarity is not a clear indicator of copyright infringement.

Some may believe that reviewing the source code to Fruit means that Rybka is necessarily a derivative work. This is incorrect. A clean-room reimplementation makes it abundantly clear that there is no copyright infringement, but the lack of a clean-room style does not mean there is infringement.

One of the most widely used computer operating systems is Linux, which was greatly influenced by the MINIX operating system. MINIX was available in source form under a proprietary license, and there was a college textbook which described how it worked and included most of the source code. The Linux author studied MINIX and ran MINIX on his computer before developing Linux. The MINIX author stated clearly that Linux is not a derived work in the copyright sense, and no review of the Linux source code has ever shown copyright infringement to any other code, including MINUX.

Therefore, intensive review and study of the Fruit does not mean that Rybka infringes on the Fruit copyright just like an intensive review and study of MINIX does not mean that Linux infringes on the MINIX (or Unix) copyrights.

The Rybka investigators acknowledge that no individual piece of evidence is the proverbial smoking gun. Instead, the pattern of pieces reveals the infringement. The history of evidence synthesis like this is fraught with methodological problems. Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis#Disadvantages_and_weaknesses:

    The most severe weakness and abuse of meta-analysis often occurs when
    the person or persons doing the meta-analysis have an economic, social,
    or political agenda such as the passage or defeat of legislation. Those
    persons with these types of agenda have a high likelihood to abuse
    meta-analysis due to personal bias. For example, researchers favorable
    to the author's agenda are likely to have their studies "cherry picked"
    while those not favorable will be ignored or labeled as "not credible".
    In addition, the favored authors may themselves be biased or paid to
    produce results that support their overall political, social, or economic
    goals in ways such as selecting small favorable data sets and not
    incorporating larger unfavorable data sets.

There are ways to help offset these problems. For example, all comparison methods should be reported before doing the analysis, along with the definition of what "infringing" means for that case. Methods which fail to report similarity must be recorded. All participants must state possible sources of bias, and the method for selecting the participants must also be published.

This was not done. Of course, if there was strong evidence for copyright infringement then a careful synthesis of the evidence would not be needed, but that was not the case here. Instead, the results seem very much cherry-picked.

It may very well be that Rybka contains copyright infringing code. It's possible, after all, that 27 lines out of 525,000 are enough to make a substantial copyright infringement claim. The problem is that the methodology of the Rybka investigators is not strong enough to be convincing.

They claim to use the abstraction-filtration-comparison test to determine substantial similarity, but without the appropriate filtration. At each of the structural levels they fail to show that the discovery methods are not producing false positives, and they fail to demonstrate that the similarity level is greater than would be expected from a non-infringing chess program implementing the idea at the same structural level.

The similarity between Fruit and Rybka is strongest at the highest level of the analysis, but the abstraction-filtration-comparison test acknowledges that at a high enough level there's no copyright protection. This is due to the merger doctrine.

The document http://www.top-5000.nl/ZW_Rybka_Fruit.pdf is highly misleading. Without a mapping from the C structures based to disassembled code, it's impossible to judge the correctness of what the author writes. With a translation directly into idiomatic Fruit code, the visual similarities are overly distracting from the actual comparison, which is on a level that isn't show.

(You saw in my first email that just because someone reports what the code says, it doesn't mean that that's what the code actually does.)

Copyright law already acknowledges that at higher levels there's no copyright infringement because it's different expressions of a common idea. Hence the statement "high-level functionality is always equivalent in these cases" is meaningless unless it's established that this level is not high enough.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2012-02-03 08:52
Thank you, Ed. This great statement subsumes many problems of the investigation and of the so-called evidence.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-02-03 12:13
True, though it's difficult to say if it actually directly challenges the ICGA ruling of Rule 2 violation.  My position is that it does, as I have made the point before that copyrightability is a much more objective measure of originality than is similarity, which can be interpreted differently by different people, and in which a valid measure of relevant similarity was not used by the ICGA (e.g. checking Fritz 11, Naum 3, and others that would take a lot of trouble), thus rendering their conclusions logically baseless.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2012-02-03 12:44
To be honest, nothing surprising here.  I also took all the stuff I managed to get from the ICGA "proof" and other stuff from some threads, and showed it to several lawyers who further took it to specialized lawyers and they all believed that Vas had excellent chances for a defamation lawsuit against the ICGA and especially David Levy.  While it might have been OK to claim that rule 2 was violated and use whatever logic the ICGA wanted to disqualify Vas.  But it clearly went further than that, and Vas was portrayed as a thief and a "plagiarizer", something that could easily be shown to have damaged his reputation and damaged him financially.  The ICGA is not the authority to do that and thus is liable.  Actually quite a few people are probably liable for a defamation suit, and it would be interesting if Vas would follow that course.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2012-02-03 14:15

> something that could easily be shown to have damaged his reputation and damaged him financially.


But he appears in an interview saying that the opposite happened, with the media attention that he got his sales multiplied by 4.

Financially, they made him a favor, many people didn't even know about Rybka, and after they knew, they bought it.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-03 17:25
I love this "I know a guy that knows a guy" stuff.  Multiple lawyers looked at this?  Pro Bono?  :)

Stop with the nonsense already...
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-02-03 17:53
Actually, it's very simple:

Majd Ansari: "Here, you all are lawyers.  Are you familiar with the relevant case law for this?" 
Lawyers: "Okay, let's have a look.  Somewhat familiar, but let's take this to the relevant department where we have the specialists."
Specialists to Majd's lawyers: "Yes, we have plenty of precedents for stuff like that, and the ICGA really went beyond simply attempting to enforce their own rules here.  Some of them could probably be sued for libel and have to cough up a lot of cash."
Lawyers to Majd: "Our specialists took a look at this, and from their experience, found that Vas could win a libel suit against Levy and some others."
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-02-03 19:04
Hyatt would not be on this forum fighting so vehemently and unrelentingly -  if he did not  recognize  how weak the ICGA's report was in substance. 

The report is open to interpretation- and can only offer a  "What if " scenario- with hypothetical assertions. The ICGA report is lacking in the kind of  substance that would warrant   actions such as -

Publicizing, wheresoever it deems appropriate, the allegations and the names of those who have been investigated by the Panel and the findings of the Panel;

This action may well  turn out to be libelous.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-03 22:50
Keep imagining what you think is going on.  That is apparently the only way you have something to say.  To read the ICGA stuff takes hours, not minutes, if one is going to examine the material in enough depth to be able to understand it.  No lawyers do that for free...  This is imagination at its best, nothing more...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-02-03 22:55
It's why you're here Bobby! Fear of libel!
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-03 23:05
not a chance...
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-02-03 23:11
You're praying to God so!
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-03 23:15
Nope, sorry...  Never even crossed my mind...
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2012-02-03 23:26
It's not me you need to apologize to!
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2012-02-04 08:30 Edited 2012-02-04 08:33
Actually it was more like me promising a few days of paid leave on their next holiday to seriously look at this stuff.  Although it might not be their exact field, it would not be too difficult for them to reach someone who can give them relevant information ... I mean they do that all the time even with construction issues.  I did that not because of Vas, but rather this whole thing was bothering me for some reason.  Either Vas was guilty and was playing all of us like fools, or he was innocent and being crucified at the stake in a very unfair manner.  There is no doubt in my mind now that Vas would win a libel suit against Levy for defamation.  It is one thing to have your own little tourney and disqualify someone for whatever reason you like, but it is another thing to do go out in the media and say you did it claiming he stole and cheated (thus did something illegal).  If you do claim something that serious, you better be damn sure you have your ass covered.  You cannot benefit from someone by lying about him, especially if you do it to gain something (more publicity for the ICGA) while at the same time damaging a commercial product.  The ICGA can claim that Vas did not participate in the investigation of the ICGA and thus they could disqualify him for that, but they cannot act like an official entity that "discovers" that a commercial product is breaking legal copyright laws.  It would not be too difficult to show that Levy used the ICGA investigation as "proof" that Vas cheated and stole, and thus felt he had the legal backing to go to the media and defame Vas.  That action was obviously wrong and misguided and opens the door wide open for a defamation law suit.

The entity that is qualified to request an investigation is the FSF, and I have always said that I would stand by whatever ruling that comes out of that.  The FSF seems to be very quiet about all of this although they have been contacted and asked to get involved.  I have yet to see the FSF get involved and that can only be because they are convinced of the folly of this entire episode.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-02-04 12:31
Thanks for the clarification.  This sounds even more reliable than what I had in mind.
Parent - - By Peter Grayson (***) [gb] Date 2012-02-06 07:55

> That action was obviously wrong and misguided and opens the door wide open for a defamation law suit.


The ICGA attempted to show they are the World authority on computer chess matters and hoped that everyone would see them as such. The way they handled the event highlighted why they should never be considered for that role.

PeterG
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2012-02-06 13:06

> The ICGA attempted to show they are the World authority on computer chess matters and hoped that everyone would see them as such.


Correct, they went far beyond the remit of simply compliance with their Rule 2.
Parent - By keoki010 (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-04 23:29

> Specialists to Majd's lawyers: "Yes, we have plenty of precedents for stuff like that, and the ICGA really went beyond simply attempting to enforce their own rules here.  Some of them could probably be sued for libel and have to cough up a lot of cash."
> Lawyers to Majd: "Our specialists took a look at this, and from their experience, found that Vas could win a libel suit against Levy and some others."


and probably also said, " send him to us!".
Parent - By siam (**) [nl] Date 2012-02-03 19:24
Talking about nonsense.

It the same method that you always use...as in we the people.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-02-03 19:58
Common sense is not your strong point. I've never met Mr. Ansari, but here's a likely scenario:

Mr. Ansari is in the construction business and almost certainly deals with in-house and out-of-house council on a very regular basis. These guys need to keep Mr. Ansari happy, and if answering a few simple questions about an unrelated legal matter will do the trick, they will be happy to do so. Pro bono? Of course, since I'm sure they are paid quite well for their council on legal matters related to Mr. Ansari's construction business. There is nothing out of the ordinary here.

If you want more detailed information on this matter, try libeling Mr. Ansari directly, and see how that works out for you. :smile:
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-03 22:32
As I said, you know everything that goes on, whether you know anything or not...
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-02-03 22:41
Words of wisdom from Bob "The Cracker" Hyatt.
Parent - By Cubeman (**) [nz] Date 2012-02-04 01:51
Still waiting for the FSF to get involved, their lack of interest or stalling seems to me that there is no real proof.Till that happens I don't take too seriously the "Vas is guilty" verdict.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2012-02-04 08:01
Bob, I promise you this was not nonsense and that I did actually do as mentioned.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-04 14:50
Are you going to tell me that several attorneys actually read and studied the report long enough to understand all the analysis?  I'd think that would take at least 12+ hours for each one...

Somehow the probability of that seems incredibly small...
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-02-04 16:54
Are you telling us that none did this already for the ICGA?!  No wonder you're having so many problems!
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-02-04 18:53
Several of us read this stuff carefully.  It was developed (the report) over a period of months, the evidence was developed over a period of years.  Of course we know what is in it.  If you mean "did we have an attorney look at the evidence and report, no we did not.  Why would we.  One doesn't need an attorney, judge, or jury to enforce rules for a private organization...

We are not having "any problems" whatsoever, for the record...
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-02-04 21:05

> If you mean "did we have an attorney look at the evidence and report, no we did not.  Why would we.


Once Levy decided to get the general media involved, he was changing the game--it's not about enforcing the rules of a private organization anymore.  From your end, I agree, there would be no reason to do so--but Levy is in a very different situation.
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2012-02-04 22:22

> Once Levy decided to get the general media involved, he was changing the game--it's not about enforcing the rules of a private organization anymore.


Yes, that was another particularly unsavoury aspect of this.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2012-02-05 06:57
There is nothing wrong with disqualifying someone for whatever reason in a private tourney.  But this went further than that, the "evidence" was used as "proof" that Vas cheated and broke copyrights (which is illegal) and that false information was actively and maliciously fed to the media.  That opens Levy to a defamation lawsuit as the "proof" used to disqualify Vas for violating rule 2 in the ICGA competition has nothing to do with breaking the law.
Parent - By vesuvio (**) [pl] Date 2012-02-05 08:01
The term used by the ICGA seems to have been "plagiarism", which needn't be a copyright violation or a crime (and e.g. Banned for Life, probably not the ICGA's greatest fan, considers a reasonable description of what Rajlich did). Sending out a press release about the decision also isn't the sort of thing I imagine is commonly considered a crime...
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2012-02-06 09:51
The ICGA clearly went beyond enforcing rules for a private organization.  Levy actively sought to use the disqualification of Rybka and Vas as "proof" that he did something illegal.  He did that by contacting various media outlets and told them that the ICGA had tried and convicted Vas of cheating and that he broke copyright law with the Rybka engine that participated in the ICGA competition.  The ICGA is not the legal entity to decide on copyright issues, so any investigation done by them is not "proof" of guilt of copyright violation.  Levy used the "proof" from the ICGA investigation as if it were a final and official verdict and proceeded to propel this wrong data to the unsuspecting media.  Yes you can make up your own rules for a small private tourney, but you cannot go around and defame someone with lies, especially if it involves the damage to a commercial product.  Levy should have stuck with "we disqualified Rybka due to violation of rule #2" or "we disqualified Rybka due to Vas not cooperating with our investigation".  Levy clearly went beyond that in what seems an attempt to gain publicity for the ICGA at the cost of a financial loss to Vas's commercial product.
Parent - - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2012-02-06 13:30

> ... at the cost of a financial loss to Vas's commercial product.


I doubt there was a financial loss, though. Even Vas said there was a spike in Rybka sales after the ICGA report came out.
Parent - - By Ray (****) Date 2012-02-06 20:32

>> I doubt there was a financial loss, though. Even Vas said there was a spike in Rybka sales after the ICGA report came out


Rybka 4, yes, but what about future sales of new versions and products ?
Parent - - By DamirD81 (***) [dk] Date 2012-02-06 21:21
As long as Vas keeps improving Rybka and is way ahead of his competitors, there will be nothing to worry about, unless people stop buying Rybka, which I hardly imagine is going to happen. If they do, than I suppose he can sue ICGA for damaging his business, and reputation. He still can do this, find himself a good lawyer and rip ICGA apart into tiny little pieces.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-02-06 21:25
And do what?  As Alan correctly notes, the ICGA doesn't really have anything to lose.  Vas wouldn't really be able to collect on damages awarded.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2012-02-07 06:20
If I'm correctly informed, Levy owns a house which cost £ 1/2 mio. :evil:
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-02-07 06:49
If Levy isn't stupid, the ICGA would be set up in a way such that he would not be personally liable for the actions of people like Bob.
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2012-02-07 07:17
The ICGA homepage has no correct legal disclaimer - so I doubt he ever contacted a lawyer.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2012-02-10 13:27
The Levy interview part 2 is very interesting in this respect :wink:
Parent - - By Nick (****) [gb] Date 2012-02-11 23:01
One rather odd question that I thought Frederic asked was the one about where the ICGA is registered .. I was surprised that David Levy answered it:

"The ICGA is a non-profit organisation and as such we have no obligation to register anywhere for tax or legal purposes."

That surprised me as I thought that even not-for-profit organizations had to register somewhere in the UK.  Do you know if that's the same as in Germany?  Our chancellor George Osborne is desperate to fund his 81 billion in cuts from simply anywhere :lol:

(BTW earlier Alan called you a neurologist, I think you're still an oncologist right?)
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2012-02-12 09:00

>Our chancellor George Osborne is desperate to fund his 81 billion in cuts from simply anywhere :lol:


He'll especially like this statement: 'on all our invoices we state that no VAT is payable' :wink:

>BTW earlier Alan called you a neurologist, I think you're still an oncologist right?


Right. Maybe Alan took one of my comments about dementia too seriously.
Parent - - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-02-12 13:44 Edited 2012-02-12 13:48
Well, the precise quote is:

Chessbase: Tell us a little more about the ICGA: in what jurisdiction is it registered, where does it make its tax returns and who is legally and financially responsible for the organisation?

David Levy: I do not see what connection this has with the Rybka scandal but I am happy to answer the question anyway. The ICGA is a non-profit organisation and as such we have no obligation to register anywhere for tax or legal purposes. We do not make tax returns, and on all our invoices we state that no VAT is payable [For the benefit of readers outside Europe, VAT is a type of sales tax imposed on many goods and services in many European countries.]

As I have stated earlier in this interview, the question about who is legally and financially responsible for the organisation comes under Article III Section 1 of the ICGA Constitution, which is always published in the ICGA Journal prior to the tri-ennial meeting at which ICGA office bearers are elected. Section 1 states that the Executive Committee of the ICGA is charged with the administrative affairs of the association.


I find this a little strange. I am not an expert in company law, but I have some experience in running businesses with all the resulting obligations. I'm not aware that one can self-declare as a "non-profit organisation"  and then "have no obligation to register anywhere for tax or legal purposes"!! The ICGA (formerly ICCA) has been running now for about thirty years. It organises tournaments and other events, it solicits payments from programmers, software houses and manufacturers to enter those events, and it solicits payments from "sponsors" for association with those events, it does this on a year on year basis and raises "invoices". Presumably it also pays out money in various directions in the course of its activities, one does not know where, but the recent three star Michelin restaurant bill of HW, countersigned "authorised by David Levy" could be considered suggestive. It appears to operate from the London address of it's long time president, David Levy.

In order not be considered an on-going business with money in and money out on a year on year basis, it would have to be registered, at least under UK law, as some entity with special status. The way this is normally done in the UK is by becoming a registered charity. Charities must display their registered charity number on documents. But, from David Levy's quote "we have no obligation to register anywhere for tax or legal purposes" it appears at first sight that this sort of registration has not taken place. Thus, on the basis of reading the above, the entity "ICGA" would appear to default to being a business. As a business with turnover, it is obliged to produce accounts and file a tax return to HMRC (if it would be considered under UK jurisdiction, and given the long standing use of Mr Levy's London address, this would seem reasonable), it would also be required, if its turnover exceeded some minimum level, to register for VAT and to make a VAT return on a quarterly basis to HM Customs and Excise specifying its inputs and outputs and VAT payable. Whether a business makes a profit or not, it still has to file returns unless it has been given special dispensation to not do so, and even charities have to file a return to the Charity Commissioners.

Hopefully there is a fully rational explanation for David Levy's statement "The ICGA is a non-profit organisation and as such we have no obligation to register anywhere for tax or legal purposes. We do not make tax returns, and on all our invoices we state that no VAT is payable"
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-02-12 13:57

> "authorised by David Levy"


Authorised as a joke so that I could include it in my expenses to Mark which of course was rejected. I did text Hans(rybka operator) from the Restaurant asking him to make a collection for me to help pay the bill - I think he got about 6 cents!

So let's see your next lie......
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2012-02-12 14:02
Chris wrote: 'could be considered suggestive'
How can this be a lie?
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-02-12 14:03
because it is not the 1st time i have told him he is wrong with this but he posts it again.
Parent - - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-02-12 14:13
Difficult to know with a liar like you whose story continuously changes from HW paid it, to David Levy wrote: (with photograph presumably from you) "authorised David Levy" on the restaurant invoice, to the previous story that Uniacke paid it as part of your expenses, to now, the story, Uniacke declined to pay it, and we're back to the original line again.

In your case the simple conclusion is to believe nothing you say without real evidence, and the evidence, provided by you, is that signed restaurant invoice. Which is suggestive, no more and no less.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2012-02-12 14:19
lol you are hopeless. I know the truth as do david, mark and the icga. What you think is meaningless and of 0 relevence.
Parent - - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-02-12 14:24
which of your four or five different stories is the truth? and why should readers trust any one of your differing stories from any other?

the only "evidence" is a photograph, presumably from you, for showing off purposes, of an expensive restaurant invoice countersigned authorised by DL. What did you want and expect people to think when you flashed this document into the public domain?
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Andrew Dalke - copyright specialist
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