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- - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-15 12:37 Edited 2012-01-15 13:10
Preamble to the mods, the (SE) issue is the core of the IGCA defence hence I post it here. Feel free to move it to the edge nevertheless.

Bob - You have no clue about "semantic equivalence."

Reminds of a previous discussion, the backward pawn evaluation debate.

Here:

  4088be:  4b 85 bc d6 20 2b 02   test   QWORD PTR [r14+r10*8+0x22b20],rdi
  4088c5:  00
  4088c6:  75 40                        jne    0x408908
  4088c8:  4b 85 9c d6 20 2f 02   test   QWORD PTR [r14+r10*8+0x22f20],rbx
  4088cf:  00
  4088d0:  75 14                        jne    0x4088e6
  4088d2:  4b 85 9c d6 20 33 02   test   QWORD PTR [r14+r10*8+0x23320],rbx
  4088d9:  00
  4088da:  74 2c                        je     0x408908
  4088dc:  4b 85 bc d6 40 9f 24   test   QWORD PTR [r14+r10*8+0x249f40],rdi
  4088e3:  00
  4088e4:  75 22                        jne    0x408908
  4088e6:  84 c0                        test   al,al
  4088e8:  74 10                        je     0x4088fa
  4088ea:  41 81 e9 68 03 00 00   sub    r9d,0x368
  4088f1:  41 81 e8 29 01 00 00    sub    r8d,0x129
  4088f8:  eb 0e                         jmp    0x408908
  4088fa:  41 81 e9 96 01 00 00    sub    r9d,0x196
  408901: 41 81 e8 29 01 00 00    sub    r8d,0x129


According to reversed enginered ASM this supposed to mean semantical equilavant (SE) with Fruit according to Zach.

This yellow is the MG/EG interpolation evaluation technique as used first in Phalanx (2003), Fruit 1.0 (2004), Rybka (2005), Crafty 22.2 (2008) and therefore CAN NOT be used as evidence for SE.

Agree?

Yes or no please.

So what is left is that you just have 4 comparisons (4 x TEST) to proof this is Rybka's backward pawn evaluation.

That is VIG thinking to the EXTREME.
Parent - - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-01-15 12:55
Ed, what you describe here is a generalised method failure which has been pointed out several times in the past (by me mostly) but ignored or casually dismissed by the attack side.

The attack side is aware of the abstraction-filtration-comparison procedure for comparison of two code sections. They are aware at the filtration stage of removing from consideration (filtering) PD code, code that has only one way of being written etc, for it obviously not fair to include such code before making comparisons. So far so good.

But, when they moved up a level from code comparison (because it didn't work for them to prove copying) to semantic comparison, they needed also to uprate their "filtration tests" at the level. They did not do a filtration stage at all. Hence they left in, and claimed comparison rights on code it was not FAIR to compare.

What you are basically saying is this: it is not fair to COMPARE code between two programs, semantically or otherwise, when that code (or semantics) is in general use elsewhere and by others.

Or, in particular, when MG/EC interpolation is in use by Phalanx, Fruit, Rybka, Crafty etc. then it is not FAIR to pick out the usage by Fruit and Rybka and claim COPYING. For starters, they could both have copied it from Phalanx and not each other. Or independently come up with the idea. Or read about somewhere else and implemented it. Are there indeed more than one way to implement the idea? Possibly not, or just one obvious way.

In general, the needed a FILTRATION test at SE stage, which asked, is this code is general or widespread use? And, which asked, once one has the idea, is there actually more than one obvious way to implement it. If either one of those questions flags up, then the semantic or code section has to be FILTERED out before any comparison. This is what they failed to do. Systemic error invaliding ALL SE comparisons.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-15 13:03
+1

Your talent to put the complicated into the simple is indisputable.

You should start a web-page yourself :wink:
Parent - - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-01-15 13:26
I'm too lazy for the mass of work you did ;-)

Crystallising the general from the particular just requires a spark, then a description of the crystalisation (usually a word picture) that any lay who wants can understand. Suits my idle temperament, or, as my old maths teacher used to say, "the best mathematician, Whittington, is a lazy mathematician", very useful lesson aged 10.
Parent - - By AWRIST (****) Date 2012-01-15 16:50
What was the profession of David L. before he became Doctor for Sex with automats? A hedge fonds artist? Did he backwards walking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKWfCN6o9As&feature=related
Parent - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-01-16 18:03
Wasn't he the Mubarak of computer chess? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Parent - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 11:39
Added a presentation which hopefully can be understood on a non programmer level.

http://www.top-5000.nl/se.htm
Parent - - By mjlef (**) [us] Date 2012-01-15 23:32
I do not see the opening/endgame evaluation being a strong piece of evidence against Rybka.  The panel did indeed found it in one program before Fruit(Phalanx--though there may be others).  It is not one of the scored evaluation criteria in the document below.  It is indeed a unique scheme (at least among open source programs before 2005), but no score was placed on it in the analysis.

In fact, in the backward pawn code, the panel found a difference between Fruit 2.1 and Rybka.  If you read this report:

http://icga.wikispaces.com/file/view/EVAL_COMP.pdf

you will find:

"Fruit 2.1 checks first that no adjacent-file pawn is behind or equal to the rank
of this one, and then checks to see if by advancing in one move this pawn can
meet up with a friendly one, ignoring this latter condition when an opponent's
pawn attacks the advance square. A penalty is then given based upon whether
the le is half-open or not. Rybka 1.0 Beta and Rybka 2.3.2a do the same
first check, and then see if by advancing one or two squares (not necessarily in
one move) whether a pawn can meet a friendly one, again without an enemy
pawn intervening by an attack (a minor difference is that Fruit 2.1 checks that
a friendly pawn, necessarily doubled, does not block the \backward" pawn's
advance). A penalty is then given based upon whether the file is half-open or
not."

And you can see further in the report that the overlap between Fruit and Rybka for backward pawn scoring is scored as merely 0.7, showing a strong but not nearly perfect overlap.  The backward pawn scoring was clearly marked as being not a perfect match, and fully acknowledged in the report.

Have you read the report?  It really does give credit for the differences.  But even with the difference the evaluation overlap is very high. 74% in fact.

I suggest you go through the report, and cite any inaccuracies.  IN fact this is encouraged and why we have opened up all the documents for review.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-15 23:54
And you can see further in the report that the overlap between Fruit and Rybka for backward pawn scoring is scored as merely 0.7, showing a strong but not nearly perfect overlap.  The backward pawn scoring was clearly marked as being not a perfect match, and fully acknowledged in the report.

WRONG! This 0.7 weighting corresponds to a 70% match in the final analysis.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 02:09
WRONG.  that is one feature.  the 74% was an overall average across all eval terms.  Again, why not READ the report?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 02:30
You are one dumbass hillbilly. Let me explain this in a manner more suited to your very limited intellect.

If all the 30 carefully selected features were given a value of 0.7, the result would have been 70%. Get it? Probably not.

This means that this statement:

And you can see further in the report that the overlap between Fruit and Rybka for backward pawn scoring is scored as merely 0.7, showing a strong but not nearly perfect overlap.  The backward pawn scoring was clearly marked as being not a perfect match, and fully acknowledged in the report.


is WRONG. In the context of the report, the 0.7 value indicates a very high match. It's too bad you are too much of a moron to understand this type of simple construct.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 03:09
Let me explain this to someone who is just dumb, whether you are a hillbilly or not is known.  I know EXACTLY what the 74% match from Mark's paper describes.  Maybe you don't, but I do...

BTW ALL of the 30 values were not given a 0.7 match coefficient.  I suppose this must be a 30th degree polynomial in your math world, since you don't apparently understand that terminology very well but use it often?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 03:59
I know EXACTLY what the 74% match from Mark's paper describes.  Maybe you don't, but I do...

You don't know shit. First, please be precise. It was 74.4%. This is a bogus number having meaning only to severely deranged persons, such as yourself.

BTW ALL of the 30 values were not given a 0.7 match coefficient.

This is another idiotic Hyatt misinterpretation. I referred to the average value of 74.4%.
Parent - By mihajovics (**) [hu] Date 2012-01-16 10:07
This is off topic, but sadly an important post.
Please, just stop with the offensive language and personal insults.
Being a lurker I've been enjoying your input in the past, but things are getting out of control.
I very much respect your opinion, but please note that you discredit yourself and weaken your own arguments with such actions and most importantly make it much harder to listen to other members of the "pro Rybka camp", who articulate their opinion in proper fashion like Rebel and Trotsky.
Thank you for understanding.

P.S.: I recommend the moderators to filter the posts (like in the clonewar days) and do not remove them.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:15
You ALSO referred to the 70% value (0.7)

Do you even REMEMBER what you write???
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 15:29
It's too bad you read at a third grade level. The 0.7 was mentioned as a contribution to the 0.744 average value. Nothing more.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:51
WRONG! This 0.7 weighting corresponds to a 70% match in the final analysis.

That was a quote from you a few posts back.

The final analysis said there was a 74.4% overlap.  NOT 70%.  And you want to chide ME for being careless?  :)

Individual features might get a 100% (or 70% or whatever) overlap.  In the final analysis, there was a 74.4% overlap between Fruit and Rybka.  No other programs were anywhere near that close to fruit.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 16:11
Once again, you are stuck on stupid. So let explain this simple literary construct on a third grade level so you can understand it.

WRONG! This 0.7 weighting corresponds to a 70% match in the final analysis.

There were thirty eval features used in the comparison. This was one of them. It's weight in the comparison was 0.7 which corresponds to 70.0% in its contribution to the final value of 74.4%. This is correctly stated, and would be easily understood if you weren't such a moron.

And you want to chide ME for being careless?  :)

I don't chide you for being careless. I chide you for being a pompous ass.

Individual features might get a 100% (or 70% or whatever) overlap.  In the final analysis, there was a 74.4% overlap between Fruit and Rybka.  No other programs were anywhere near that close to fruit.

Picking out non-representative engines for comparison, followed by picking out arbitrary features, then giving them admittedly arbitrary values, and then computing overlap to three significant digits is called lying with statistics. If someone less biased had done the work, the values would have been much lower. If Vas had done the comparison, the values would have been much, much lower. Once again, this is only evidence of extreme bias on your investigative team's part.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 00:02

> I do not see the opening/endgame evaluation being a strong piece of evidence against Rybka.


Just to be clear, is the MG/EG interpolation stuff evidence for copying or not ?

You missed the second question, how can 4 continues compare instructions proof that piece of code being the backward pawn evaluation ?

Guesswork ?

Please don't tell me to look in the documents for an answer, I almost know them by head.

That's humiliating every time you do.

Ok for Hyatt, not for you, if you know what I mean.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 02:13
One has to look at the code.  I've told you how.  Mark Watkins told you how.  You asked me to find a specific piece of code.  To see what those test instructions were looking at, I just stopped the program at that point and looked at the values.  One that uses bitboards daily can recognize the pawn board, the knight board, etc.  Then you KNOW what the instructions are doing (most common test in bitboards is the "test" instruction, because an AND operation is the best way to test for intersection between two sets, without destroying either set in the process.

If you don't know how to do this, just say so and move on...
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 02:35
This is the He's guilty because Bob says he guilty argument. We've already heard this thousands of times. This argument makes no sense to anybody else, but maybe if you repeat it 5,000 more times it will become believable...
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 03:06
No. it is the "provide a solution to an unsolvable problem."  No one person can convince him Vas copied code.  So he has to actually READ the evidence for himself.  If he does, carefully, and understands it, the picture clears up and the reason(s) the ICGA concluded Vas had violated rule 2 really becomes clear.  Vas won't even discuss "the early days" because that evidence is so horrible to his case.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2012-01-16 04:02
No. It is another of your interminable lies. One after the other. Lies about the Fruit PST code being in Rybka. Lies about the Fruit PSTs being in Rybka. Lies about the Fruit PST not being in Crafty. Lies about copied code.

You are just one dishonest piece of shit.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 11:51

> One has to look at the code.  I've told you how. 


But we are not in your class right now, neither am I one of your students.

Let's compare Rybka ASM with Rebel ASM or any other engine for the matter:

http://www.top-5000.nl/se.htm
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:13
Sure, but let's compare it CORRECTLY.  Not taking 4-5-6 instructions "out of context" and comparing them.  THAT is the difference between what we did, and what you are trying to prove is invalid.  What YOU are talking about IS invalid.  But that is not what we did.  We compared blocks that computed a specific scoring term, in total.  Not "in snippets" where we could leave out any instructions that didn't "fit" and just compare the rest...  Your approach is leaving out the key parts, "what is being tested, how is it being tested, etc."

That page is no better than the rest of your pages on this topic.  Filled with false/incorrect assumptions and concepts.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 12:05
You replied to a post but did not answer the question, lemme repeat:

Just to be clear, is the MG/EG interpolation stuff evidence for copying or not ?
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:02
No.  No more than the lack of it in one and the presence of it in another is evidence of "not copying."

One can STILL copy Fruit's eval verbatim, then simply delete the EG scoring code and then scale at each point where a specific EG or MG term is added, and it would STILL be a copy.

Otherwise we suddenly change the discussion to "one can't use ideas developed by others."  Which has never been the intent.  How long have you allowed search time overflow if the score drops on the first move of a new iteration?  That is a blitz/cray blitz idea.  First discussed in "Using Time Wisely" in the JICCA.  Everybody uses it today.  Because using the "idea" is perfectly acceptable.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 15:17
Ed - Just to be clear, is the MG/EG interpolation stuff evidence for copying or not ?

Bob - No.


Thank you.

I like clear answers.

http://www.top-5000.nl/se.htm

So when we examine the Rybka code on the above page the yellow ASM instruction do not count as SE evidence.

Agree also ?
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:26
No.  What counts is semantic equivalence of the ENTIRE block of code.  How hard is that to grasp?  In this case, BOTH programs use interpolation. Both programs test the SAME conditions in the SAME order.  Neither does something the other doesn't do.  That is "semantic equivalence" and the "interpolation idea" is not a factor.  One could do a complex series of tests, and do interpolated scoring.  Someone could copy that block of code, eliminate JUST the interpolated scoring, and the abstraction-filtration-comparison methodology could be used to show that they are STILL semantically equivalent at that slightly more abstract level.  Who does the same tests (when the code is complex) in the same order, looking for exactly the same things?  Someone that copies code.

The "methodology" used is what is important here.  Just because two programs repeatedly update two score variables does not mean they copied each other.  If they update them in the same way, with the same comparisons and methodology, then they are likely copies.  One does not just discount a few instructions here and there.  One looks at the entire "picture."
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 16:03

> No.  What counts is semantic equivalence of the ENTIRE block of code.


NO NO NO.

Because Crafty 22.2 and on the same SE is in the Crafty executable.

Common used chess idea's can not be counted as SE evidence.

What you have in the example I listed is 4 comparisons and the values added to score.
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 18:41
What ARE you rambling about?  SE is not about "IDEAS".  It is about "IMPLEMENTATIONS".  Specific implementation details, not vague ideas/concepts...

THAT is why I keep saying you do not understand what semantic equivalence is all about.  "ideas" do not get mentioned in that context.

In that example, we GAVE 4 comparisons.  You appear to ignore them since they are not highlighted.  Yet those are the CRITICAL parts of the semantic equivalence issue, because those tests identify what, exactly, is being examined.  What, exactly is the order.  The yellow part IS important, because that shows what is done IF those tests are true.  Hence, the entire block is examined.
Parent - - By zwegner (***) Date 2012-01-16 18:58

> You missed the second question, how can 4 continues compare instructions proof that piece of code being the backward pawn evaluation ?


Wow, do you understand reverse engineering at all? Have you considered looking at the memory locations of the bitboard tables, and looking at what parts of the board representation are loaded into which registers? That's what I did. The eg/mg stuff was very much incidental while reverse engineering, there's just two adds instead of one. That is pretty irrelevant when trying to determine the semantics of some code...
Parent - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 20:04 Edited 2012-01-16 20:06
I am saying that: 2-3-4 conditions and then adding to score is all over in any chess executable (SE).

That's no proof for code theft.

Especially not when every chess executable share common (non-copyrightable) chess knowledge idea's.

Such as backward pawn evaluation in this specific case.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 02:07
No, that is NOT correct.

The MG/EG interpolation is an idea.  What is important is the WAY the tests are done.  Back up one step so that the two EG/MG scores combine into one line, since SEVERAL programs use this approach.  Now what do you see?  You do NOT focus on 4-5 lines of code, you focus on a block of code that does something useful.  For example, the trapped bishop code you posted.  Do Crafty and Fruit do the SAME thing in terms of what they check?  And we can even factor out the actual "bonuses" since anyone can change a single constant, agreed? 

So, Crafty checks a bishop on a7 with a pawn on b6, or a bishop on b8 with a pawn on c7, duplicated for the other corner on the same side of the board.  And then duplicated for the other side of the board at a2/h2.  For any condition that is true, I add a penalty.

Fruit checks for a bishop on a7 and a pawn on b6, or a bishop on b8 with a pawn on c7 (ditto for other 3 corners.)  If any one is true, fruit adds a penalty.  Then fruit checks for a bishop at a6, and a pawn at b5, the other 3 corners as well, and if any condition is true, it adds 1/2 the penalty it added for the a7/b8 case.

Now does that REALLY appear to be semantically equivalent?  If you use the SAME penalty in both programs, you won't get the same score for all positions since Crafty doesn't check the a3/a6/h3/h6 squares at all, nor does it add in any 1/2 penalty for those.   Why is that so difficult to understand.  You want to take 3-4 lines of code and say "Hey, a match." (which might well show that Fabien looked at Crafty since Crafty did things Fabien did, at least a couple of years prior to fruit existing.  We took individual pieces and features and compared them.  Not just cherry-picking 3-4 lines, but taking the ENTIRE block of code from each.  Often they were the same.  Occasionally there was something different.  The more such blocks that match, the more likely code was copied and translated to bitboard (or just outright copied in some places that did not reference board structures at all.

As I said, your concept of "semantic equivalence" is flawed.  One doesn't apply it to a line here and a line there.  One applies it to a complete function, or a complete block of code, and too many matches are revealing.  Also, your SE is flawed because that "test instruction" is the wrong place to start.  One has to back up to see what is in al that is being tested.  If one is testing for a passed pawn, and one is testing for an outpost knight, then of course they are not "semantically equivalent".  SE analysis has to work within context, not just a half-dozen asm instructions by themselves with the "input" totally missing...

Your "concept" here is wrong.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 11:57
Bob - Your "concept" here is wrong.

To be expected.

Suggestion, since SE is the CORE of the IGCA defence shall we take the issue as addressed to an independent ASM expert for a binding verdict? Does not have to be a chess programmer, just an expert in ASM.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:10
Sure, if he is really an asm expert.  He also has to know something about compilers to understand compiler optimizations such as constantant folding, common sub-expression elimination and such.

As far as your "link" it is YOUR concept that is wrong, not mine/ours.  One does not apply SE to tiny snippets of code.  That reveals nothing.  One applies SE to an entire block of code, or even a complete function.  An example would be "EvaluateWinner" in Crafty 19.x and Rybka 1.6.1.  Complete function, over 100 lines of C, perfect match to the asm in Rybka 1.6.1.  To compare semantics, you have to compare the block of code.  you want to eliminate that which is being compared, and claim "hey, this test al, al is followed by a jz in BOTH programs, so they are SE here."  You omit an important semantic detail, that is, what is in al at that point?  What does it represent?  What operations were done to create that value?  You can't overlook ANY of those questions.  Yet you are.  Which simply implies you do not understand the concept...

So it doesn't have to be a chess programmer, but it does have to be an asm AND compiler expert.  A good one would be Eugene Nalimov.  Not involved in the discussion or panel at all.  You won't find a better asm expert...  And he knows a "little" about compiler optimizations as well.  I'll let you research why that is...
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 15:38

> Sure, if he is really an asm expert.  He also has to know something about compilers to understand compiler optimizations such as constantant folding, common sub-expression elimination and such.


Excellent.

Suggested Model

1. I suggest 3 independent ASM experts not related to chess programming as they might have been influenced by case itself. 3 experts who can judge SE.

2. VIG camp - Mark W, Zach, you

3. VII camp - Chris, Ed and perhaps someone else

4. Both VII and VIG present their case.

5. The experts will ask questions, answers are given until they are satisfied.

6. The experts after deliberation will give a verdict.

7. The verdict is binding to the parties involved.

Meaning good ICGA-SE job I will shut up, bad ICGA-SE job the ICGA declares the Rybka verdict null and void.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 15:48
What do you mean "binding to the parties involved"?  You want to undo the ICGA verdict?  You will have to go to the ICGA board for that.  David is the president.  This is somewhat akin to a defendant not offering a defense at trial, being found guilty, and then appealing because "he had ineffective representation."  That doesn't work...
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 19:27 Edited 2012-01-16 21:37
Well..... the interpretation of the ASM is the base of the documents, if the base is wrong then the documents are wrong.

Is the ICGA afraid to have a (this time) independent jury to decide the case ?
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2012-01-16 20:42

> Is the ICGA afraid to have a (this rime) independent jury to decide the case ?


Of course they are afraid, they are not even remotely interested in receiving an appeal or re-opening the case. They know if they do their case will disintegrate before their eyes.
Parent - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 21:26
What does your question have to do with mine?  The ICGA has ruled.  Vas had a chance to participate.  I would suppose that if HE wants to appeal, the ICGA would listen.  YOU have no standing.  Any more than I can sue someone else on your behalf.  Only the "injured party" gets to participate.  Talk to him and see if he REALLY wants to have a 3rd party discuss the C to asm comparisons, in public, again...  Should be his choice, not a proxy that doesn't speak for him.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2012-01-16 17:11

> Meaning good ICGA-SE job I will shut up, bad ICGA-SE job the ICGA declares the Rybka verdict null and void.


What ICGA?  I don't think that the ICGA in its present form exists as much of an organization that is at any level higher than that of a high school club.  I think that a better route would be to somehow form an entirely new organization, one not polluted by the recent problems of the ICGA and the CSVN, and make that organization's decision bounded by the result of the scheme that you propose.  Obviously, David Levy would not be allowed to have anything to do with such an organization, as he's just so out-of-whack that his opinions or decisions, whether one way or the other, have absolutely no importance for computer chess as a whole any longer.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 20:53
But David is the slave of the programmers, no programmers, no tournament, the CSVN learned that lesson the hard way. A new organization would face the same problems. Unless you want to suggest an organization that uses a "rule 2" more fitting the present days of course.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 21:28
You keep saying that.  What kind of rule 2 do you envision:  Play with whatever you want to bring?  I am sure you will end up with a giant houdini-like fest, no new programmers unless they enjoy the copy/paste way of doing chess engines.  No new breakthroughs since nobody understands what their program actually does, they just copy it and go.

Is THAT the kind of rule 2 you think fits today?  Not me.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 21:35
The kind of "rule #2" that allows the strongest engines to fight for a REAL world champion title, not the type we have witnessed in Tilburg.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 21:39
You said you like clear answers.  How about actually GIVING one for a change.

In this thread, how about drafting a proposed rule 2 that you think meets the criterion you just cited.  Then we can discuss to see what unexpected/unwanted things it introduces...
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 22:10
We have been here before, there are solutions, the MAIN obstacle has to be removed first.

THE WILL TO CHANGE.
Parent - - By bob (Bronze) [us] Date 2012-01-16 22:15
So, in other words, "no answer"?

That is what I thought.  The classic "what you are doing is bad, but I don't have any suggestion to make it better."  That is REALLY useful..  And is REALLY going to make a big difference..
Parent - By Trotsky (****) [fr] Date 2012-01-16 22:19
My answer?

They discard you. As happened at Tilburg the other week.
Parent - - By Rebel (****) Date 2012-01-16 22:42
You don't want to change rule #2.

The proof of that is in our previous talks on the issue.

Do a self-test nevertheless, you will NEVER allow under any condition Houdini to play in an ICGA tournament.

Like me you would resign :razz:

Correct ?
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