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- - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2008-01-03 13:57 Edited 2008-01-08 14:49
Rybka vs Benjamin II - Match at Draw Odds

Introduction

Terms and comments by Larry Kaufman
Introdution by Vasik Rajlich

Conclusions

Post-match comments by Vasik Rajlich
Post-match comments by Roland Rösler

Schedule

Game 1: Benjamin - Rybka 0-1
Game 2: Benjamin - Rybka 1-0
Game 3: Benjamin - Rybka 0-1
Game 4: Benjamin - Rybka 1-0
Game 5: Benjamin - Rybka 0-1
Game 6: Benjamin - Rybka 0-1
Game 7: Benjamin - Rybka 0-1
Game 8: Benjamin - Rybka 0-1

Games

Game 1, Benjamin - Rybka 0-1: A logical game from both sides. Rybka equalized in the opening, but at the cost of allowing a queen trade and a symmetrical pawn structure. Benjamin made a few more tiny concessions to further simplify the position (20. c4) and a win to start the match didn't appear to be far away for him, but in fact the endgame was not routine and he was not able to defend it.

Game 2, Benjamin - Rybka 1-0: Another logical game from both sides, very similar to the first game. Rybka again equalized in the opening, but at exactly the same price - a trade of queens and a symmetrical pawn structure. Benjamin again made a few more tiny concessions to further simplify the position (19. Rad1) and stood nominally worse, but this time the endgame proved to be rather simple and white never really had to sweat.

After two games, the main pattern is already clear. Rybka has a fairly strong disincentive to trade pieces, strong enough to cost her around 40 Elo in self-play, but Benjamin is willing to go to greater length to force trades than Rybka is to avoid them. This is in fact quite logical, as his heuristics about this topic are better than Rybka's. I can't seriously fault Rybka's play at any point so far, although Larry and I did make one adjustment and a different version will play starting in game 3.

Game 3, Benjamin - Rybka 0-1: Benjamin accepted complications with 11. Nb5, sacrificing a pawn on the queenside to gain the initiative. The position was quite sharp and rather computer-friendly and after a series of very non-obvious inaccuracies, white's position crumbled.

Game 4, Benjamin - Rybka 1-0: The themes from games 1 and 2 returned. The queens were traded and the position was closed quite early. The Rybka version which plays in this match is averse to both, but Benjamin was again willing to go to greater lengths to achieve these aims than Rybka was to avoid them. There was still plenty of play in the resulting position, but Benjamin was able to defuse it completely by sacrificing a piece for two pawns and achieving a fortress. Rybka (mis)evaluates that position as a full pawn better for herself.

Game 5, Benjamin - Rybka 0-1: Benjamin again made opening concessions in order to lock the position, but this time he lost his grip. Rybka cracked things open with 12. .. b3 (which must have come as a surprise) and 14. .. f5, with a strong initiative for black. The resulting position is nearly impossible for a human to defend.

Game 6, Benjamin - Rybka 0-1: The openings are proving critical in this match, and this time Benjamin lost the battle quite early. He achieved a symmetrical pawn structure, but at the cost of the bishop pair, and black was able to get active play on the queenside. The resulting position is a nightmare for a human to try to deal with without computer assistance.

Game 7, Benjamin - Rybka 0-1: On move 12, Benjamin was faced with the typical dilemna for this type of match: play a solid anti-computer move, or play a good natural chess move. This time, he chose the latter and forged ahead with 12. g4. He kept the balance until move 26, when his 26. Qd2 appears to be a very complex error. The resulting position is difficult for white objectively and hopeless for a human against a computer.

Game 8, Benjamin - Rybka 0-1: The opening variation was again a bit too open and unbalanced to give the human his best chances. It seems that 20. Qd2 and 21. a3 are both inaccurate due to the surprising shot 21. .. d5, which turns the game in black's favor.

Analysis

Games 1 & 6 by K. Utzinger
Parent - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-03 16:18
Link on the web-site to download client doesn't work due hardware problem with server.

Use the following link for downloading:

http://www.chessok.com/download/chessplanet_e.exe
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2008-01-03 19:18
Game 1: 0-1 (Rybka wins)

[White "Benjamin"]
[Black "Rybka"]
[WhiteElo "2575"]
[BlackElo "3100"]
[Result "0-1"]
[GameID "235"]
[UniqID "63267"]
[WhiteClock "0:02:21"]
[BlackClock "0:54:06"]
[Stamp "1204"]
[LastMoves "40...a4 41.Kf2 -5.12"]

1.e4 {This is game 1 of draw odds match. Rybka must win to get a point.} e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O c5 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Re1 Be6 10.b3 a6 11.Bb2 Re8 12.Bf1 d5 13.exd5 Nxd5 14.Nxd5 Qxd5 15.Qxd5 Bxd5 16.Rad1 Rad8 17.a3 Kf8 18.Bd3 g6 19.Kf1 b5 20.c4 bxc4 21.Bxc4 Bxc4+ 22.bxc4 Rxd1 23.Rxd1 Rb8 24.Rd2 f6 25.Rc2 Kf7 26.Ke2 g5 27.h3 h5 28.Kd1 g4 29.hxg4 hxg4 30.Nh4 Bd6 31.Nf5 Be5 32.Kc1 Kg6 33.Ne3 Bf4 34.g3 Bxe3+ 35.fxe3 Ne5 36.Bxe5 fxe5 37.Rf2 Rb3 38.Kd2 Rxa3 39.Rf8 a5 40.Ke2 a4 41.Kf2 { 0-1} Z0 ( 41...Ra2+ 42.Ke1 a3 43.Ra8 Ra1+ 44.Kd2 a2 45.Kc2 Rg1 46.Rxa2 Rg2+ 47.Kb3 Rxa2 48.Kxa2 {Anti-Human Rybka  (0:00.03)} {<font color=red>-4.97|d17</font>} ) ( 41...Ra2+ 42.Kf1 a3 43.Ra8 Ra1+ 44.Kg2 Kf5 45.Ra5 Ra2+ 46.Kg1 Ra1+ 47.Kf2 Ke4 48.Kg2 {Rybka v2.3.2a (0:02.14)} {<font color=red>-5.12|d19</font>} ) 0-1
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-03 19:39
Interesting game; I really don't like 20.c4 here--it seems to open things up in black's favor.  37.Rf2 looks like a blunder?  (I don't see anything wrong with 37.Rc3, but then again, I'm at a location right now without access to my access to my engine, but it looks like after this white can just play Kc1-c2-c1 etc. and if black moves the rook over then white pushes the e-pawn to complete the protection of everything and the blockade...)
Parent - By BB (****) [gb] Date 2008-01-03 20:03

> 37.Rf2 looks like a blunder?


I think Rf2 is OK (for activity), but the idea of cutting off the f-file might have been too dominant in the human mind - maybe 40 Rc8 rather than 40 Ke2, though R+P endgames can be tricky. After 37 Rc3 Kf5 38 Kc2 Ke4, Black then attacks g3 (possibly with Rf8-f3) and should win (with the RPP vs R tablebase at least). Maybe 37 Rc3 Kf5 38 Rd3, activating the rook again.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2008-01-03 19:42
Is there a winning line for Black after 40. ... a4 41. Kd2? I can´t find them :-(.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2008-01-03 20:05
Wie wärs damit? :
41... Rb3 42. Rc8 Kf5 43. Rxc5 Ke4 44. Ra5 Rd3+ 45. Kc1 Rxe3 46. Rxa4 Rxg3 47. Kd2 Rg2+ 48.Ke1 Kf4 49. Ra6 Rc2 50. Rf6+ Ke3 51. Kf1 e4 52. Rc6 Kd4 53. Rg6 Rxc4 54. Rxg4 Kd3 0-1
Parent - - By Werewolf (*****) [gb] Date 2008-01-03 20:32
Of all the openings to play for a win with....why the Philidor defence??
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-03 20:35
Well, we kept all the pieces on, avoided blocked positions, and avoided symmetry (for a while anyway). What more can you ask of a Black defense when White is aiming for a draw?
Parent - - By Werewolf (*****) [gb] Date 2008-01-03 21:12
hmm...ok, but doesn't the sicillian do that too?

(well done on winning btw)
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-04 03:44
We may try the Sicilian too. Every defense has certain flaws for a must-win game.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-04 19:22
I see this "Rybka Anti-human 1" and "Update Rybka Anti-human".  Is the "update" used to play Joel now?  What are the differences between the two?
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2008-01-04 19:48
You don´t hear the discussion between Larry and Vas in the second game about Queen trading? Rybka Queen has to be on board :-)! Vas has worked last night.
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2008-01-04 19:55
Actually I addressed that problem today just by raising contempt from 50 to 60. Overnight Vas made a change to try to avoid pawn symmetry. I doubt it will help much though as this is usually determined in the opening book phase.
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2008-01-03 21:41
Thema erledigt :-). Habe selbst gemerkt, dass das Ausharren mit Ke2 und Kd2 und anschliessender Gewinn des schwarzen a-Bauern für Weiß nicht reicht. Deine Variante hatte ich nicht ernsthaft in Betracht gezogen. Dennoch vielen Dank!
Parent - By BB (****) [gb] Date 2008-01-04 16:24

>[WhiteClock "0:02:21"] [BlackClock "0:54:06"]


It is perhaps an interesting question as to whether Rybka gains anything from using more than, say, 30 seconds on any given move - particularly with the expected(?) tactics-delimited  positions tending to demand knowledge more than search and/or the opponent likely to be in (relative) time trouble.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-03 21:16
There are a few odd technical things on the beginning of the Rybkachess page.

First, the times are in 24-hour time, which does not go with "a.m." or "p.m.", and yet a.m. is used for all of them, which is funny for the p.m. afternoon games.  Second, according to the page, Joel will be playing games 7 and 8 at the same time.  Will the same computer be doing this, too? :-)
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2008-01-04 10:21
Aha, thanks :)

Vas
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2008-01-04 10:26 Edited 2008-01-04 10:28
hihi :)
I'll change that on our website.
Parent - By SR (****) [dk] Date 2008-01-04 00:29
Is there a transmission problem in game 2? After 32.Bc8,b5 no moves have been transmitted for ages.
Parent - - By boo! (**) [no] Date 2008-01-04 15:31
Will there be any http broadcast of game 3?

I can't get through to the live page right now. (This coud be proxy problems here at work, however I doubt it)

Sadly, I can't use the Chessplanet software, because of my choice of using an open source OS.
Parent - - By BB (****) [gb] Date 2008-01-04 15:35

> Will there be any http broadcast of game 3?


I have been getting it just fine for 35 minutes. 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Nc3 a6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Qc7 6. g3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Nf6 8. Bg2 Nc6 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. O-O O-O
Parent - By boo! (**) [no] Date 2008-01-04 15:39
Ok, thank you! Then it must be the proxies. I'll find a way around them.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2008-01-04 15:43
You can actually use it when using Chess Assistant, for some reasons the client (it's nearly the same as you can download) starts there.
Anyway, I also would like to see a version for Linux, the latest version doesn't start here, too (but the old one works).
Parent - - By boo! (**) [no] Date 2008-01-04 17:26
I take it you run it through Wine? If so, what version of wine and chessplanet? I have Ubuntu Dapper installed on my machine, and therefore a somewhat outdated version of wine. Looks like there's newer versions of wine for dapper on their homepage, I'll might try them.

Did you successfully install chessplanet with wine, or do you run an installation done in windows?

Tank you
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2008-01-04 17:56
I use the build in version in Chess Assistant 9, the standard .exe doesn't install here, too. Maybe it works if I install it under Windows, the last time I tried that this didn't work.
Btw., always when engine evaluations are posted, the program freezes and the "clipboard" button is blinking... :(

Btw., you should update your Ubuntu, gutsy works fine here :)
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2008-01-04 16:57
This is what I like a lot about the Chess Planet broadcasts. In the latest version of the client you get live analysis of the position with different engines so you see their evaluation at all times -- and you can play through each of the PVs on the board.
Parent - - By Titu (*) Date 2008-01-04 17:29
But chess planet seems to be have connection problem, when the load gets too big?

Yes, my connection to other chess sites are fine.

/Titu
Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-04 18:52
Together with the morning translation a major tournament goes on ChessPlanet server. Client programs receives information about it by default. May be
this creates some problems.

So if your goal only translation the recommendation is to do the following actions:

1) select in the main menu Options\ Network and click Traffic tab;
2) in Scheme drop-down list select Lowest traffic.

After this client program will not receive any additional info from server.
Parent - - By JohnL (***) Date 2008-01-04 21:30
Actually, I can't follow the live games at all, don't know what is wrong.

The link http://www.chessok.com/broadcast/live.html doesn't work at all, neither with Firefox or IE.
And when trying to login in to the chess server via Chess Assistant I get "Connection refused by remote host". Isn't it via 81.176.67.146:8470?

Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-04 21:36
Well, thus far we have 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Nf6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.0-0 d5 6.e5 Nd7 7.Bb5 Qb6 8.Qa4 Be7, with Rybka Update Anti-human giving -0.24.  Spike 1.2 Turin, which I've had playing with these positions all day, is giving -0.30.  Looks good for another Rybka win with that pawn looking funny on e5, as long as Rybka doesn't allow the position to get locked up.  Rybka's 8...Be7 was a novelty, with 8...c4 being previously played for a black win in Kopmann-Volke 1998.

As for that link, it works for me, but causes all other programs to be screwed up on my computer--I can't type anything for very long without keystrokes going to the main menus, and maddeningly occasionally causing programs to shut down.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2008-01-04 21:46
That link has been working fine for me with Firefox (and Window XP).
Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-04 22:08
JohnL,

what this means "Doesn't work".

No page or any other problems? Java scripts should be enabled to view the page.

As for client, possibly you need to register (it takes 30 seconds and no need in real e-mail address) to enter server. Due overloading server serves guests with the lowest priority. Anyway tomorrow the problem will be researched.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-04 22:24
Is there any way to make sure that it doesn't screw up the other programs running on my computer?  Half the time I try typing something, it instead gives commands to the menus and windows and such, which is extremely maddening.
Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-04 22:46
Hard to beleive that Java scripts can influence to other programs. The only thing I see Internet Explorer takes 3-4% of CPU on my computer

What browser is used?
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-04 23:25
Mozilla Firefox is my browser; in particular, it is difficult to type this message--much of the time I pause, and then can't type in the window anymore unless I click in the window again.  I had to do that five times (make that seven) just in typing this message.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2008-01-05 00:06
I heard one user say that on an old computer the Javascript slowed his computer down. Perhaps you are experiencing the same problem. Maybe there should be a checkbox (and an "Update" button) for those users who want a manual update of the position.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-05 00:13
Hmmm, I wonder if Athlon 64 3200+ counts as an "old" computer now...
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) [nl] Date 2008-01-05 00:19
I also use Firefox to view the game on a AMD 1800+ no problem at all. Did you already try a reboot?.
Parent - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2008-01-05 00:27
Interesting, when you compare this to Turbo's experience on a more powerful computer.
Parent - By Graham Banks (****) [nz] Date 2008-01-05 00:34
I use Firefox on my Athlon 2200 and experience no problems at all watching the live games. No delays, no slowdown with typing, etc, etc.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2008-01-05 00:24
Yes it's ancient. Where did you dig it up :) Anyway, the Javascript code is far from trivial. It's probably run every few seconds and it seems clear that it is slowing your computer down.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2008-01-05 00:48
When I run the broadcast on Internet Explorer, I have no problems if I run other internet stuff, like this site, on Firefox.  Weird...
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2008-01-05 01:50
I should have been more specific above when I said no problems.  I'm having the same "typing problem," however, the game broadcasts fine.
Parent - - By JohnL (***) Date 2008-01-04 22:53
Well, I put IE on lowest security and privacy and Firefox has Javascripts enabled.
Selecting the link in firefox timeouts to a blank page where I can do "view source" and it seems to include a bunch of javascripts.

In IE I get error, website cannot be shown.

Regarding Chess Assistant club I have manged to log in before.
I choose "Enter as guest" it takes quite a long while with the UI freezing and I finally get the "Connetion refused...".
When I choose register or an old account (which might have incorrect password) the same happens.

I also tried with "connect using HTTP" with same result.  And the "help" button says no help available.

Otherwise my computer is working fine. I prefer you to Chessbase but it all gives a bad impression including the clumpsy timeout/wait handling...

Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-04 23:03
Thanks for the information. Feedback is important. We will try to clear problems tomorrow.
Parent - By JohnL (***) Date 2008-01-05 11:48
Just tried the link again today, and it seems to work (firefox)!

However, the chess board looks a bit weird and is varying its width depending on where the pieces are... 
Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-04 23:07
Current situation in game 4.
After 24 moves Rybka evaluates her position better, but there is no clear plan to win.

[White "Benjamin"]
[Black "Rybka"]
[WhiteElo "2575"]
[BlackElo "3100"]
[Result "*"]
[GameID "240"]
[UniqID "673095"]
[WhiteClock "0:24:37"]
[BlackClock "1:08:20"]
[Stamp "4438"]
[LastMoves "24...Rb6 25.Kg1 -0.46"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Nf6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.O-O d5 6.e5 Nd7 7.Bb5 Qb6 8.Qa4 Be7 9.d3 O-O 10.Bxc6 Qxc6 11.Qxc6 bxc6 12.c4 a5 13.a4 Rb8 14.Nbd2 g5 15.h3 h5 16.Re1 Kh7 17.g4 Ba6 18.Rb1 Rh8 19.b3 Kg6 20.Bb2 Bd8 21.Bc3 Rb7 22.Bb2 Kg7 23.Ba3 Bc7 24.Kg2 Rb6 25.Kg1  *
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2008-01-04 23:15
My guess is that the position is drawn but I expect a long game.
It seems to me that rybka simply does not understand the position and I evaluate the position as 0.00 but rybka may be smarter than me.

Uri
Parent - - By Victor Zakharov (*****) [ru] Date 2008-01-04 23:27
Yes, game will be long. No pawn moves in Rybka variations.

[White "Benjamin"]
[Black "Rybka"]
[WhiteElo "2575"]
[BlackElo "3100"]
[Result "*"]
[GameID "240"]
[UniqID "673095"]
[WhiteClock "0:21:03"]
[BlackClock "0:56:09"]
[Stamp "4623"]
[LastMoves "29.Bb2 Kg7 -0.40"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Nf6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.O-O d5 6.e5 Nd7 7.Bb5 Qb6 8.Qa4 Be7 9.d3 O-O 10.Bxc6 Qxc6 11.Qxc6 bxc6 12.c4 a5 13.a4 Rb8 14.Nbd2 g5 15.h3 h5 16.Re1 Kh7 17.g4 Ba6 18.Rb1 Rh8 19.b3 Kg6 20.Bb2 Bd8 21.Bc3 Rb7 22.Bb2 Kg7 23.Ba3 Bc7 24.Kg2 Rb6 25.Kg1 Rbb8 26.Nf1 Rb7 27.N1d2 Kg6 28.Kg2 Bd8 29.Bb2 Kg7 *
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