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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / IdeA and Advanced Engine Options
- - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-05-06 13:47
A user in the german part of this forum asked for an output of each engine in IdeA tree.
My first attempt:
I assigned via Advanced engine Options a tree to each engine i want to use.
Then starting Idea with 5 engines, engine trees added as columns to IdeA tree configuration.
Analysis adjusted to ridiculous 1s and 3 to get fast results.
But columns of engine evals remained empty (settings of Add analysis to Idea tree or Add moves and evaluation to IdeA tree)
IdeA column was filled with results (of what engine?? all? the first?...)

Trying to analyse with IA (game analysis, 5 engines), no filling of my columns, even with only 1 engine.
If I analyse manually with IA, each engine generates an output to it´s tree. But the result isn´t shown immediatedly, only after going foreward or back a move the evaluation can be seen in tree.

What did I make wrong?
Any useful hints appreciated.

regards
max
Parent - By agendean (**) [gb] Date 2011-05-06 20:05
That's how its been working for me, i have to go a move
back in the tree and then forward for the evaluation to appear or change engine.

Andrew
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-05-07 06:48

> A user in the german part of this forum asked for an output of each engine in IdeA tree.


there is already such a file. For every project in {AquariumData}\idea\Results\projectname.epd

If you mean output an epd file

> Then starting Idea with 5 engines, engine trees added as columns to IdeA tree configuration.


first of all i cannot understand why would anyone want a separate file for every instance of the SAME engine.
Second, since those engines are not REAL, but they are instanced on the fly, i do not expect for THOSE engines to work (Game analysis uses the same technique)
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2011-05-07 07:23

> first of all i cannot understand why would anyone want a separate file for every instance of the SAME engine.


I think he meant 5 DIFFERENT engines.
Parent - - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-05-07 12:26
Yes, different engines!

I don´t want a set of EPD but a tree with the results of different engines.
In Dadi´s article at chesscafe.com I saw this picture:
I hope this picture can clarify what my poor knowledge of english language failed.
max
Parent - - By Dhanish (***) [in] Date 2011-05-07 13:41
You have to learn to use tree configurations. Please see old posts / help files/ videos for details.

Previously, users used to make mistakes in the settings leading to lot of problems, so in recent versions, IdA tree configuration changes have been restricted. So you have to go to database view, and then create / select the appropriate tree configuration and columns.
Parent - By Radost (***) [de] Date 2011-05-07 15:18 Edited 2011-05-07 15:28
Max wrote: "If I analyse manually with IA, each engine generates an output to it´s tree." That means he knows how to use tree configurations. He made the correct settings.
The picture shows the result of multiple engines with IA (!), but it don´t (!) work for IDeA, because no 4 different engines runs in the same time through all (!) variations in IDeA (they solve only a part of variations) and no separate output pro engine is displaying in the tree. Is that the point?!

Yes, I also want to see 4 engine-specific analysis with the same single IDeA project in the tree. I possess a quad computer. Okay, I could organise 4 projects one after another to achieve the same ...

Greetings, Frank
Parent - - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-05-07 17:53
Maybe i have much to learn, but I am not alone...
As Radost sayed, it works in IA but not in IdeA. Have you tried it??
The feature of comparison of engines is new with Aquarium 2011 (as described in Dadi´s article), so I tested it..
Let me show you Pic1 after (short analysis with IdeA) and Pic2 after short analysis with IA. Can you or someone else solve the puzzle??
Regards
Max
Parent - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-05-09 07:07
As i told you before, this is probably happening due to the way engines are initialized (and copied on the fly in memory) when used with IDEA and GameAnalysis.

You may be using 1 as an engine multiplier (so you are saying hey... i am not copying engines on the fly) but i am pretty sure the algorithm is general for 1 to 100000 engines.

Just a guess.
Parent - - By The Truth (**) [de] Date 2011-05-07 22:32 Edited 2011-05-07 22:35
This IA tree on tree configurations is flawed. It doesn't display depth count and you can't put the pv of its evals on the notation so no information on how reliable are those evals or why is it even that way, IMO just some numbers to me. The one that displays depth and pv is a small box on the bottom of the aquarium window and it is in a tool tip form so you have to drag mouse to even see the depth and another down side is it comes from the mixed mashed evals on the aquarium directory "deep_analysis.epd" so you don't know which engine or what analysis session is it from.

Maybe it would be nice to have some subscript which shows the depth or analysis time under the eval of the IA tree on the tree configuration, a tool tip which shows the pv when mouse is moved on the IA's eval cell and a right click function which puts the IA pv on the notation.
Parent - - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-05-08 19:51
In other words:
we don´t know the statistical power of the results shown in the picture above.

With this topic I wanted to point out that (only for me?) this new feature is yet not useful.
1. you can´t see the depth and PV (in my example i used very short analysis time and poor depth!); in IdeA the number of positions and the statistical functions provide a better view of the evalution
2. it should be a feature of IdeA as suggested by Dadi´s article but it is only a feature of manually IA, no automatic generation of results.

If Dadi can´t clear the mystery we have to hope for an update
max
Parent - - By Dhanish (***) [in] Date 2011-05-09 08:10
What you want is not clear, but is it this?
Parent - - By Pawnbroker (*) [gb] Date 2011-05-10 15:00
I have come to the same conclusion that this inovative feature is limited in value. Unless we know the depth at which the IA score has been retrieved we have little idea of its credibility. Showing the number of positions may be interesting, but does not yield much help when the IA is tightly focussed as it usually will be. There is really no substitute for showing depth alongside the IA score. If it cannot be done, a possible alternative would be to give the user control over the depth at which the IA score is written to the tree. For example in a particular position I might be only interested in the IA score where a depth of 25 moves has been reached, in another position perhaps 30 moves. It would then be useful to have a box where I could insert the required minimum depth before IA scores get written to the tree.

A little knowledge of, or control over depth would transform the usefullness of this feature.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2011-05-13 18:25

> A little knowledge of, or control over depth would transform the usefullness of this feature.


You will be able to see the depth in an upcoming (free) update of Aquarium, although it won't be included in the first Aquarium 2011 update which will probably be available as an unofficial release tomorrow.

In spite of not being able to see the depth yet, I already find this feature invaluable and I think that anyone who tries it will agree that it's a big step forward compared to not having the evaluations so easily accessible. Of course you can't know anything about the depth when you see analysis done by someone else, but you should have some knowledge about your own analysis. There are also various methods you can use to keep track of your analysis when it's important to know the time or depth.
Parent - By The Truth (**) [de] Date 2011-05-20 08:09

>Of course you can't know anything about the depth when you see analysis done by someone else, but you should have some knowledge about your own analysis.


There will be times that there will be some bogus on eval, so it really needs depth for reliability check and pv for confirmation. And I really don't see the point of using .hsh for seeing IA evaluations on tree config. Why not just use epds? It stores the eval, depth, time, pvs, and it is easily readable.
Parent - - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-05-11 16:20
What you show is not clear...
Columns showing Ho15: 1840 and Ho15: 0.29 seem to show positions analysed and Houdini's result;
but do you use IDeA or IA, the position count from epd, from tree config categories or whatever??
If you don´t tell me in which way that tree is build up, i will have no clue what your answer reveal...

But I think buffos answer has pointed out that "due to the way engines are initialized (and copied on the fly in memory) when used with IDEA and GameAnalysis" that it can´t be expected to get different results from different engines in IDeA while performing parallel analysis (in IDeA) .

After re-reading of Dadi´s article I see that I have to change part of my use of IdeA to :
Linking games to an IdeA project, running IDeA all the time, but analysing with IA the game(s) same time (>= 2 cores required for that procedure), setting "Add moves and evaluation to IDeA tree"; and I want to examine an option (that should resolve the problem of depth of analysis written in the tree) I have overlooked all the time: see picture

Thx for all help and hints,
Yours sincerely
max
Parent - - By Dhanish (***) [in] Date 2011-05-18 07:47

> Columns showing Ho15: 1840 and Ho15: 0.29 seem to show positions analysed and Houdini's result;
> but do you use IDeA or IA, the position count from epd, from tree config categories or whatever??
> If you don´t tell me in which way that tree is build up, i will have no clue what your answer reveal...


The pic shows comparative IdeA evaluations of 2 different engines: Ho15 and SF20. The numbers are the number of positions in each tree (Using a different tree for each engine during IdeA) and the corresponding evaluations. In IA, you do not get position counts and there is no easy way to obtain the position count from epd.
Parent - By Maxiator (***) [de] Date 2011-05-18 20:58
I already felt that this...
Of course on can run IdeA projects and obtain position count of the resulting tree, but you have to run it twice or more (one for Ho15, one SF20, and so on..)
My question was based on the idea of getting evaluations from different engines by only one IdeA project.
Buffos answer made clear  what was my misunderstanding of generating Idea tree by engines.

The new article (Part two) of Dadi Jonsson in Chesscafe.com shows analysing like I mentioned above (derived by reading of his first article; I wish he had published it earlier but on the other hand I learned more by own thinking).

Kind regards
max
Parent - - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2011-05-18 04:47
I want to do the same thing you are trying to do, unfortunatly I am stuck one step before you !!!!!
Where do you find 'Advanced Engine Options'  i want to assign a tree for each engine, but cannot find the place to enter the name of the tree.  This must be looking extremely stupid I tried my best but just could not find the place in Aquarium 2011
Parent - - By buffos (Silver) [gr] Date 2011-05-18 07:13

> Where do you find 'Advanced Engine Options


engines mode (the place where you install the engines). If the windows (panel) is not shown, just open it, by using the little arrow down left (where you find layouts)
Parent - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2011-05-18 08:31 Edited 2011-05-18 08:36
Thanks.   - perfect description missed the little arrow before !!!!!
Parent - - By tano-urayoan (****) [pr] Date 2011-05-18 07:14
Engines-layout.
Read here
Parent - By ransithf (**) [lk] Date 2011-05-18 08:37
thanks for the article
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Aquarium / IdeA and Advanced Engine Options

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