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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Fritz 11-Rybka in great danger now!!!
- - By Steppenwolf (*) [de] Date 2007-11-19 09:13
Hi to all,
in the last weekend I checked the new Fritz 11 engine. I must say that I was really impressed.
The improvement over Fritz 10 were great!
So Vas, you have now a much more challenge to improve and put out Rybka 3 as soon as possible...
What are the impressions of the community about the new Fritz11.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 09:42 Edited 2007-11-19 09:50
Disappointing. They promised about 80 Elo, but CEGT results show it's only about 40 points stronger than Deep Fritz 10 on a dual. What's worse, it's most likely not even an improvement compared to DF10.1 with enough processors.

New, dramatically lobotomized engine. Weaker than the previous version on  the same hardware, provided your hardware is good enough. A quad should do.

And they're still force-feeding the GUI and Playchess with it.

And the database is most likely a subset of what I already have.

And there's no download version.
Parent - - By gruenkohl (**) Date 2007-11-19 10:07
You should compare single Fritz 11 vs. Single Fritz 10.
We don't know anything about Deep Fritz 11.

Fritz 11                       : 2914   19  19   820    58.0 %   2858   36.7 %
Fritz 10                       : 2839   11  11  2948   50.0 %   2839   29.8 %

So there is a differnce of 75 points.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 10:21 Edited 2007-11-19 10:24

> You should compare single Fritz 11 vs. Single Fritz 10.


Why? I have a dual, I have no use for single Fritz 10. Being limited to one processor obviously hurts F11, but there's nothing I can do about it. CB could have just as easily released Deep Fritz 11 now: how else could they already know how strong it is?

>We don't know anything about Deep Fritz 11.


We know it's going to be released next March.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-11-19 10:41
You clearly can use Fritz11 on a single processor.
You can analyze chess games with more than one engine and give Fritz11 one processor and give Rybka another processor.

Uri
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 13:38
Three problems: tree overlap, significantly weaker engine (the CEGT 4/40 rating difference is 110 points), and the Fritz GUI. And I'd even have to pay for it!

I'd like to define 'use for Fritz 11' as something that could possibly be construed as being worth 50€.
Parent - - By saxon (**) [hr] Date 2007-11-19 11:25
We don't know anything about Deep Fritz 11.

Fritz 11                       : 2914   19  19   820    58.0 %   2858   36.7 %
Fritz 10                       : 2839   11  11  2948   50.0 %   2839   29.8 %

So there is a differnce of 75 points.


Anycase ,it's not stronger than Kramnik who is playing elo2920 on Tal memorial.
:)
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-11-19 14:34
Anycase ,it's not stronger than Kramnik who is playing elo2920 on Tal memorial.

I think that it's definitely stronger.  First, the CEGT list is deflated compared with the SSDF list, which is scaled to the FIDE elos.  Second, the SSDF list is for Athlon 1.2 GHz.  If you're dealing with an Athlon 2.4 GHz or equivalent or stronger, you're talking about another 60-point elo increase from that.  On the other hand, rating increases between Chessbase versions tend to be smaller on the SSDF list, and this is probably closer to reality: I doubt that Fritz 11 is more than 50 elo stronger than Fritz 10 on the new SSDF list (compare Shredder 10 with Shredder 9, which is supposed to have an 80-point elo difference), and the difference is probably less.  Even so, taking everything into account, the actual elo rating of Fritz 11 on a fast single-core system is on the order of 100 elo stronger than the value given for Fritz 10 on the SSDF list.  This brings it to 2956, which I would guess is probably pretty reasonable for what would be its results against human competition.
Parent - By saxon (**) [hr] Date 2007-11-20 19:33
But I'm sure  Kramnik would protest.
He would say Fritzy is drawish .
Therefore of the same strenght as him. 
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-11-19 20:31
Latest news from CEGT:

Fritz 11                     2919   16  16   1120   60.5 %   2837   37.6 %
Fritz 10                     2839   11  11   2948   50.0 %   2839   29.8 %

So we have now the predicted +80 Elo from CB :-).
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-11-19 10:44
Their promise was for the majority of their customers and the majority use single processor.
People who use more than one processor are minority.

They always used the name deep Fritz for more than one processor so it was easy to guess that the 80 elo is relative to Fritz10 and not relative to Deep Fritz10.1

Uri
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) [de] Date 2007-11-19 10:59
I think, the number of cores ist the important fact.
I think, today it might be fact, that most people have a processor with two cores.

If this is factually not true, in a vew months it will become true.

(has someone information about the percentage of PC-users using a multi-core-processor today?)

Quap
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-11-19 18:36
This has been discussed in another thread, referring to the sales figures of single Rybka to mp Rybka of 4:1 (!). Not all users who have computers with x cpu cores, will want to run engines in a way that ONE engine uses all cores, or on more than one. Using them on single core remains useful under many circumstances; see for examples:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=32109;hl=#pid32109

Of course, better for the customer would be being able to buy mp engines for the price of today's single engines, soon... :-D But I guess that will not happen as long as enough people are willing to pay a higher (or double) price for the mp versions, each. That is the crucial point. As long as the existing concept makes sense (in the economical, or revenue sense), why should companies change it?
Parent - By Henrik Dinesen (***) [dk] Date 2007-11-21 21:39

> Using them on single core remains useful under many circumstances; see for examples:


I've also tried to bring those point in front, but have to face the fact that most members in this forum seems to be keen computerchess freaks, foremost ;)
That is, less interest in analysis with (human)chess in mind, preparation etc. Maybe the majority of those who cares for those parts is just being quiet?
I know that Vas has persuad the idea of Rybka being an super engine, and with the perspetive of a later GUI, for long. Then Covekta came in, and we, that the target is there :)
As very sweet "bi-effect" Rybka has proven extremely strong against the exsisting engines, which has caught the attention of those who's main interest is computerchess and those likes both cc and human chess where analysis is a concern. And just lately it seems, there begins to be a breakthrough, a connection, to the chessworld. And that's where ChesBase has dominated for year.

Still, back to cores and "ordinary" people (you've touched the subject yourself more than briefly, if I remember correctly, and so has Uri and others): These people is often playing in clubs or on the net, and seeks ways to improve their chess, they almost give a shit about CC-ratings, they foremost want what the other guy's having. And what that is can change. Regarding the computers, many I know, is cathegorieds in two rough groups: Those who knows they have a dual all by them self, something they aimed at, and those who've discovered they have a dual and need the term explained. In both cathegories, there's some knowledge, and the understanding varies a lot. Naturally.

But those who've aimed for a dual, usually wants to use one processor for chess analysis/game, and the other for "something else". They understand the significance of one vs two processors. In some cases, the thought of using both processes for an overnight analysis appeals, but often you need a special occasion, or being a pro chess player to legitimate that. The rest is most likely not interested, except when they've just bought a new program that yeilds it's "deep" analysis in some way.

Then there's the super-normals: They have dual, and dont care, or they have a typical household comp, maybe a new one (but still one cpu/tread): They don't care if there's a benefit im using 2 treads, even less when they're told how "much" this benefit is in time.

In both groups there's quite some who may buy just just the most expensive of everything, but still they would wonder why  a  program uses "both" cpu's when 1 is enough... I know a guy is buying Deep Fritz.... has done for years...He is an unormal "ordinary", changing harware often. Now he has dual-laptop, and the main problem is that when he uses Deep Fritz, everything is so slow, just like before... He is for many years a the IT-manager for a big company, with a substance of technicallity in his education.

My point is, that many buys computers and computers and software without more prior understanding than they have when buy TV or phones. It's superficial knowledge, and it will probably alwas be that way. No blaim here.
So the aim at any time, when the majority is clear on benefits and caveats in one area, like hardware, is of course to present the most desent product, with all the quallities to the typical user. But where? And who?

My personal guess, is that it will last long before the inital target audience of Rybka has more more than sp's - 3-5 years??
And still we'll like to use sp's because "diffence of oppinion" matters - some of us at least.

I hope the "market" wont milk the cow too much... adjusting to the circumstances woud seem too me, as bieng able to stop benefitting from mp in time. That's about two years from now, when looking at the Europeans, the USA and Asia.
Parent - By h1a8 (***) [us] Date 2007-11-19 18:46
IMO, I think the majority of homechess users use more than one processor.
If the minority of all home computer users is single processor then it is barely minority.
For many have core duo (1st one), athlon x2, pentium D, and core 2 duo machines.
So the users of more than one processor will definitely be majority very soon (if not now).
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) [de] Date 2007-11-19 10:53

> Disappointing. They promised about 80 Elo, but CEGT results show it's only about 40 points stronger than Deep Fritz 10 on a dual.


You are disapointed, because the new singel core engine ist only 40 ELO stronger than the old multi core version?
Why?

This ist not the engine you waited for.
So wait until Depp fritz ist out.
And don't be disapointed because the weaker SP-version couldn't outdistance the old MP-Version.

But it seems the sp-Version has increased her strength significally.
Perhaps the MP will do in a similar way.

You wrote ' They promised about 80 Elo...'
Are you shure that the promised that the new SP-Version has 80 ELO points more than the old MP-Version?

Maybe the SP-Version isn't interesting for you, OK.
I think, you shouldn't be disapointed then.
You should wait.

Quap
Parent - By Werewolf (*****) [gb] Date 2007-11-19 11:33
ok ok - so when is Deep fritz 11 out??
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 13:36 Edited 2007-11-19 13:39

>You wrote ' They promised about 80 Elo...'
>Are you shure that the promised that the new SP-Version has 80 ELO points more than the old MP-Version?


What they promised is undefined. I defined it in the only way that makes any sense to those who aren't particularly interested in buying SP engines. Fritz 11 is a giant backward leap: they had a relatively good parallel implementation with DF10.1, but now it's gone. Deliberately weakening your engine is a marketing strategy I heavily disagree with...

>This ist not the engine you waited for.


It's the same engine, just with an important strength-enhancing feature completely removed. Hence my use of the word 'lobotomized'.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-11-19 14:38
It's the same engine, just with an important strength-enhancing feature completely removed.

I don't know what you mean by this.  You have to buy the strength-enhancing feature, and this feature isn't available until next spring.  The advertising was clear: with Fritz and Deep Fritz being separate engines, developed separately, the "predecessor" of Fritz 11 is Fritz 10.  There is a 75-elo point difference between these two, which is statistically consistent with the advertised estimate of 80 elo increase, which was probably made by the programmers, not by Chessbase, who simply relayed the information.  As much as I tend to deride Chessbase, this particular instance isn't a good opportunity :-).
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 19:09 Edited 2007-11-19 19:14

> I don't know what you mean by this.  You have to buy the strength-enhancing feature, and this feature isn't available until next spring


Alright, alright. They've completely removed the availability of the strength-enhancing feature for marketing reasons! Happy? Makes no difference to anything I care about, though. Especially since they don't even have an upgrade price.

>The advertising was clear: with Fritz and Deep Fritz being separate engines, developed separately


How many times did you roll your eyes while typing that? In the real world (i.e. everywhere but the advertising), they're the exact same engine, the difference being that Deep Fritz is compiled with
#define SMP
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-11-19 19:23
They've completely removed the availability of the strength-enhancing feature for marketing reasons!

No, nothing was removed--unlike Junior, Shredder, Hiarcs, Rybka, etc., Fritz and Deep Fritz actually ARE two basically different engines.  Even in the cases where they've been roughly the same overall strength, such as with Deep Fritz 10, which is the only time when the "Deep" version and the "Shallow" version have been somewhat similar overall, there is quite a noticeable difference in the evaluation of many types of positions.  In the case of Deep Fritz 6, 7, and 8, there has been a noticeable strength increase on single processor from the ordinary to the deep versions--the deep versions always have more endgame knowledge and better play in many other types of situations.  They're two different engines altogether.  There are far, far more similarities between Strelka and Rybka beta, for example, than there are between Fritz engines and their "Deep" versions.  It's much more than simply "#define SMP"--when the author works on a new Fritz version, he goes back to work from the previous version.  When he works on a new Deep Fritz version, he goes back to work from the previous Deep Fritz version.  Not all of the knowledge is compatible, either--it would be a mistake to simply copy the "extra" endgame knowledge from Deep Fritz 11 into Fritz 11 because Fritz 11 is different enough that this could induce some serious weaknesses.

I think the thing on which we agree here is that compared with Rybka, Fritz is poor buy in that you get a far weaker engine for a higher price.  Use that point!  That is worthy enough of mention without having to pull at weak straws.  If the only thing in which one is interested is chess analysis in all different types of positions, then there is no reason why one should do anything more than buy the latest Rybka and download Fruit and Spike, which are free.  If one wanted to make absolutely sure that everything is covered, then buy Zappa Mexico, too, since its style is so different from Rybka.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 20:23

> No, nothing was removed--unlike Junior, Shredder, Hiarcs, Rybka, etc., Fritz and Deep Fritz actually ARE two basically different engines.


Even if that's true, it wouldn't be very difficult to port the parallel search, especially for the guy who developed both.

> There are far, far more similarities between Strelka and Rybka beta, for example, than there are between Fritz engines and their "Deep" versions.


There are more similarities between Loop and Toga than Strelka and Rybka beta according to the data you're referring to. It's just not reliable.

> I think the thing on which we agree here is that compared with Rybka, Fritz is poor buy in that you get a far weaker engine for a higher price.  Use that point!


The problem is that all the extra clutter (GUI,Playchess,database,videos), while nearly useless to me, is generally pretty valuable.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-11-19 20:58
I think your assumption that F11 is just a crippled version of DF11, while reasonable and commonplace (e.g. rybka, shredder, junior), isn't true for Fritz. This can be seen in previous Fritz releases, where the SP version provides significantly different analysis from the MP version operating on a single core. I don't think the Fritz team is using a good programming model at this point in time, but I think this is a much more likely explanation for the 4 month delay to DF11 than that CB is trying to use the delay to get some customers to buy both versions. Losing Xmas sales is just too much of a price to pay for this strategy.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Quapsel (****) [de] Date 2007-11-19 14:57

> Fritz 11 is a giant backward leap: they had a relatively good parallel implementation with DF10.1, but now it's gone...


Only in the same way as you can attack Microsoft, when they come
out with an new Works-Version and you proclaim heatedly, that their
Office now has done a giant backward leap!
:-o

Not fair and not my opinion.
Quap
Parent - - By richbell (**) [in] Date 2007-11-19 16:04
Come what may, i still don't get why they aren't releasing an UCI version. IMO it's like accepting they are not a tough competitor in engine business and  they only rely on the goodwill factor of "Good GUI" which will also sell their engine to the unsuspecting, unexposed, under informed poor chess fans.

The fact is they can't ride this horse for too long. Sooner or later the trend will shift from legacy systems and they either had to prove fritz is the best engine or accept the fact and play equal in modern platform if they want to survive. We are already at the early stages of that shift in knowledge among chess users. It's just a matter time for others to get educated.

Just weight and watch the fun after that. :-)

I have a lot of respect for what they did to chess community for quiet a few years consistently. I got interested in chess computers only because of fritz and it's popularity like so many others. Thanks to their very good marketing team again. I used to have a fidelity designer 2100 when i was a kid and used to wonder how fritz 2 used to beat it left right and center in a modest 386/33Mhz machine :-)

Please don't think i am just here to thrash fritz. I would love to see fritz come back big like any other chess engine, which is always good for the chess world.  

All that said and done, there is only one thing that bothers me, they don't have the stuff they are trying to sell and that makes us look like a fool in their hands. That sounds like a rip off. Moreover i always felt they had total domination over computer chess world at one point with top 5-6 engines as their product. This kind of monopoly is not good for chess industry.

Why?? Like Quapsel said this can be easily understood with MS analogy if you think a bit. (Again don't get me wrong, i respect both Bill and Steve equally). In todays world quality matters over riding a legacy goodwill horse.

I can keep writing more and more with examples to prove my point. But don't want to start a serious war over here between Rybka and Fritz fans. Peace :-)
Parent - By Jouni (**) [fi] Date 2007-11-19 16:33
Look also in CSS Forum: Rybka lost 2(!) matches at once:

BfF-Gauntlet (Aktivschach, C2D)
_
Shredder 11 
Junior 9                      :  20 (+ 12,=  5,-  3), 72.5 %
Fritz 10                      :  20 (+  7,=  6,-  7), 50.0 %
Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit           :  20 (+  5,= 14,-  1), 60.0 % !*
HIARCS 11.2 SP                :  20 (+  9,=  3,-  8), 52.5 %
Fritz 11                      :  20 (+  6,=  4,- 10), 40.0 %
_
Fritz 11
Junior 9                      :  20 (+ 15,=  3,-  2), 82.5 %
Fritz 10                      :  20 (+ 10,=  5,-  5), 62.5 %
Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit           :  20 (+  5,= 11,-  4), 52.5 % *
HIARCS 11.2 SP                :  20 (+ 10,=  8,-  2), 70.0 %
Shredder 11                   :  20 (+ 10,=  4,-  6), 60.0 %

Jouni
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2007-11-19 16:39 Edited 2007-11-19 16:42
I have a totally different beef.  The opening book they're issuing is a joke.  Do they have any idea how quickly a book of that puny size and dubious provenance will be chopped up into little pieces?  Fritz's authors have reached a level of systematic obscurantism that defies description.  This book is a big step backward from their previous, also crappy books!  You'd be way better off using one of Harry Schnapp's books, such as HS Rybka.  Even Sheebar is better.  Tsk, tsk.
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-11-19 18:55
Even without knowing more recent Fritz books, I need to object. A Fritz opening book isn't entirely - or not at all, actually - intended for engine room and Freestyle computer chess competitions. Fritz is one of, or THE main product by ChessBase many "normal" chess players use who IGNORE our freaky extra hobby (nutshell in a nutshell)... By that, I don't mean it wouldn't be suitable for computer chess. It certainly is! But it is not it's only goal to help gaining engine room Elo :-D

IMO, the Fritz 7 book is one of the best opening references at all (of course without the perfect "up-to-date" factor). It was bigger still, then the later Fritz 8 book. It containes a giant number of moves and variations from opening analysis including rare and unusal "off-theory", not just from imported games.

I think it is a masterpiece, not a crappy joke... Also, I do not assume that the recent Fritz book are worse. The book designer Alex Kure is considered to be in the same league with Jeroen Noomen and Sandro Necchi.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2007-11-19 19:16
All right then.  We need the Fritz 11 book put in a head-to-head test against other prominent books.  Sedat Canbaz has been doing a number of these tests lately; he might be a good third party to settle this.

If anyone would like to send me the Fritz 11.ctg book I'd appreciate it; I don't think that would be an egregious case of piracy.  I'd be happy to put it through its paces against my tournament book and offer an objective assessment.  If it does comparably to Harry's at the same settings ("Normal") I'll be happy to eat my words and make a public statement to that effect.

Your comment on our hobby being a sideshow of a sideshow is well taken.  You're right.  But at the same time I think the computer chess community at large--everyone who buys a product like Fritz--would be better served if opening books were as muscular as possible within the constraints of what can be compressed onto a CD (or two). 
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-11-19 21:09
Nelson,

You of all people are well aware that a good engine book is not independent of the engine that will be using it. On the contrary, the lines should be carefully chosen to attain positions the engine in question is relatively good at playing.

Since you clearly do not intend to purchase F11, its not obvious to me how you can evaluate the F11 book as it was intended to be used. I submit that it is only important for this book to work well for F11. How well it works for other engines is really not relevant.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2007-11-19 22:28
Alan, I could not disagree with you more on this one.  "The lines should be carefully chosen to attain positions the engine in question is relatively good at playing."  This is very conventional thinking.  Respectfully, the proposition is buncombe.  A book-exit position is what it is: it contains both an unknowable objective truth and a knowable subjective truth.  Are you telling me that an opening book should be designed to know that it plays Nimzo-Indian (say) relatively better than other openings, when potential Nimzo-Indian book-exit positions could number in the thousands, when potential engine opponents number in the hundreds, when potential time controls and hardware setups are all over the map, and when certain openings are universally recognized as inherently weaker than others (e.g. white Sicilian lines vs. white King's Gambit)?  What bookmaker could exhaustively test and normalize such notions?  He flat-out couldn't.  So, using your approach, he takes a stab at it based on his subjective impressions: "it seems to me that our engine does well in this line."

This is not good enough.  No classically-trained scientist would tolerate such uncertainty and inexactitude.  Systematic progress can only made with rigorous testing and very precise measurements.  (Which, incidentally, is a hallmark of my style of analysis.)

I submit it is only important for a book to work well with ALL engines, and that the measure of success is not in the final game outcome, but the position attained at book exit.  After that the book has passed the baton to the engine; the engine has to perform in accord with the position it was handed and its relative strength against the opposing engine/opposing hardware.

All this said, I am not entirely discrediting other views.  I have always maintained that there are other approaches to bookmaking that work extremely well precisely because they are extreme.  Everyone has to follow an approach that their imagination and resources permit.  The strongest bookmakers are all extremists.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-11-20 01:39
We'll remain in disagreement on this one. As a simple example, many have noticed that Zappa plays closed positions relatively better against Rybka than open positions. In my opinion, the bookmakers from both camps would be foolish not to take this into account. If this is a valid observation, the Zappa camp should be trying to come out of book in closed positions while the Rybka camp should be trying to come out in open positions. It seems pretty clear that the books to accomplish these goals will be very different and that if both camps used the Rybka optimized book, it would result in a higher expectation for Rbyka and vice versa if both camps used the Zappa book.

Your thesis could only be valid if all engines play all position types equally well. This can, and has been, disproven from doing statistical tests on test group results, grouped by ECO. Results of these tests on large numbers of games show that percentage of wins or losses (to normalize for engine strength) of ECOs varies significantly from engine to engine in a manner that is well beyond statistical significance.

Please note that I am NOT claiming that engine developers typically tune the opening books they distribute with their own engines to work well with their own engines. Why not? Beats the hell out of me. Probably for the same reason that so many engine developers show up at tournaments with badly constructed books.

Alan
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-11-20 01:52
Something that Nelson has mentioned in various threads, including this one, is going for the extreme situations, and also that a bookmaker's job is to prove wrong the conventional wisdom.  I think a good example of such an extreme situation involves people who like to take Rybka with white into that famous line of the Poisoned Pawn Sicilian that we were discussing this past summer.  Rybka plays that opening absolutely horribly, and would probably get crushed in a long game on either side of the board by any version of Junior since Junior 7 if both engines were put into the middle of those lines (in the middle--not at the beginning).  However, if the book is complete enough, the opening ends up being transformed into either a mate score or a won endgame for white (or in the exception of some critical lines, a forced draw).  I know this is a little bit different from what you're talking about, and I see and mostly agree with your general point, but this is one of those exceptions to the rule.  People who are convinced that they've found good exceptions should play them, even if their engine stinks in the resulting lines.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2007-11-20 11:32
I think my argument is not properly understood because I am engaging in obscurantism of my own.  To illustrate my points would require divulging way too much about our opening book such as it is today and the conclusions we arrived at en route to building it.  In a sense we are talking two different languages from two different reference points.  No lo puedo arreglar, nada se puede hacer.  Klaatu barada nikto.

I will only say this: generally speaking, opening books in the public domain are inadequate.  With a little effort, they can be better.  With incredible effort, they can be better yet.  One problem with public books, as I see it, is in the realm of philosophy: to what degree should books dominate the action vs. letting the engine strut its stuff.  For instance, if the Fritz book was so strong that it was routinely playing 30 moves out of book, hardly giving the engine anything to do, how would that go down among the people who shelled out 100 euros for the latest iteration of a program?  Pretty soon people would realize they were buying a book as much as an engine (perish the thought).  So it seems to me engine authors tend to throttle back on their public books because they're standing at the precipice of a proverbial slippery slope.  The canny authors put out milquetoast books and play in tournaments with private books on steroids.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-11-22 02:04
First of all, opening theory is a part of chess, there is no way around this. Opening book authors might say that the middlegame is a part of chess and there is no way around that :)

To answer Alan, with any project, you have to have some long-term principles. For example, Rybka targets 64-bit, multi-processor systems. If something helps in 32 bits or on a single-processor machine, it better be really easy or I just won't do it. Maybe this isn't absolutely optimal today, but I'm ready to bet on it long-term.

Opening book authors also have their principles and their long-term strategies. You don't really want to scramble to overhaul your book and the way you work every time the engine you're booking for improves its evaluation.

Vas
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-11-19 23:17

> If anyone would like to send me the Fritz 11.ctg book I'd appreciate it; I don't think that would be an egregious case of piracy.


Why wouldn't it be piracy? I think the value of the book was charged with F11's price, so I don't see why people that didn't buy F11 could be able to own the book for free.

And if you mean that this wouldn't be bad piracy, are you implying that there are cases in where piracy is good?
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-11-19 23:28
For many people, this would be "bad" piracy.  However, you can be certain that Nelson has stuff that is far more comprehensive and better in every respect than any Fritz book--by testing it like this, he would simply be giving, as he says, an objective assessment that would help other people without gaining any benefit himself, and this would be of benefit to others in the community.  Naturally, if there is some miracle and the book turns out to be extremely good and he wants to keep it, then we'd be talking about something different.
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2007-11-19 23:44
whatever anyone says about books i remember mexico match when for the last few games rybka had to change, if rybka had say changed to HS books it would have destroyes mexico as i am proving at testing on a quad at 300 mins all in i will post within 48 hours.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Silver) [us] Date 2007-11-20 11:45
My philanthropy and good intentions have absolutely nothing to do with it.  The real question is whether Fritz's authors consider their book intellectual property that is an integral, inseparable part of the Fritz 11 package.  If that is the case, then sending me the book as a gift would be theft (though I suppose once a product is sold it can be resold, depending on the product use terms).  However, if the authors consider the book an auxiliary part of the package and not what people are spending their money for, then there should be no foul.  As I don't know the authors intentions I can only let others let their conscience (or their legal counsel's advice) be their guide.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-11-22 22:29
This could be said about RybkaII.ctg, and I don't see it being given for free.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-11-22 23:44
No worries Nelson. I will send you a pie with a file baked in, to help you escape from Leavenworth! :-)
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-12-02 14:51
I received my Fritz 11 shipment on Friday.  The Fritz11.ctg book is sometimes good, but sometimes not; RybkaII.ctg is definitely better, though obviously Fritz11.ctg is more recent (of course, anyone who uses a default book of any sort on a chess server, unless it's only 1-2 days old, is begging for a ratings plummet).  It is definitely true that the bookmaker(s) for Fritz 11 have been watching the Freestyle tournaments :-).
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-11-19 18:47
The parallel implementation isn't GONE...?! Up to now, it always was and is normal to release different versions, a single version and a (more expensive) multiprocessor version. Every engine incl. Rybka is sold like that, if there is a mp version at all.

The only unique thing related to Fritz single/mp releases is, that unlike with other engines, there is a delay of some weeks or month between the single release and the mp release. Often - if not always - the mp version contained improvements in addition to the mp capability.

(IIRC there was no Deep Fritz 9 at all, though?!)
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-11-19 20:50
A quad should do.
I don´t believe it! Make a match over 100 games between Fritz 11 vs. Deep Fritz 10.1 4CPU with at least 30 minutes per game and you will see.
Parent - By brianinski [ca] Date 2007-11-23 16:44 Edited 2007-11-24 20:30
So STRONG? Tell us why you have not responded to Rybka's match at odds, for $100,000.00? against Fritz?

Disappointing. They promised about 80 Elo, but CEGT results show it's only about 40 points stronger than Deep Fritz 10 on a dual. What's worse, it's most likely not even an improvement compared to DF10.1 with enough processors.

New, dramatically lobotomized engine. Weaker than the previous version on  the same hardware, provided your hardware is good enough. A quad should do.

And they're still force-feeding the GUI and Playchess with it.

And the database is most likely a subset of what I already have.

And there's no download version.

You should compare single Fritz 11 vs. Single Fritz 10.
We don't know anything about Deep Fritz 11.

Fritz 11                       : 2914   19  19   820    58.0 %   2858   36.7 %
Fritz 10                       : 2839   11  11  2948   50.0 %   2839   29.8 %

So there is a differnce of 75 points.
WITHOUT ADDRESSING THE CHALLENGE OF RYBKA, FRITZ WILL ALWAYS BE WEAK .

BECOMING OF: SPORTSMANSHIP, BE A MAN, STEP UP TO THE PLATE, SHOW US YOUR STUFF, STOP COWERING IN SHAMEFUL FEAR.

brian carson, toronto
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Fritz 11-Rybka in great danger now!!!

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