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Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-10-12 12:52
Yes, endgame improvement is actually on the list for action starting this week! I already made one general change that would have avoided the 3 pawns up draw in Mexico, but I'm talking about specific endgames. In general, it's easy to fix bad-looking moves, but hard to do so in ways that don't hurt test results. This still puzzles me.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (****) [za] Date 2007-10-12 13:32
"I already made one general change that would have avoided the 3 pawns up draw in Mexico"

Thanks Larry. That draw made me sad, it not a good way to draw when you are heavey material up. In general, do you think the change will avoid draws when it's a Bishops of opposite colours game? That would be very nice.

Overall, thanks for the change of the Mexico draw. Who knows the similar position might appear again in another match? :)
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-10-12 14:16
It will reduce the incentive to make trades like the rook trade that led to this drawn endgame. But we will make more explicit changes soon to help such endgames.
Parent - By rivaldo (***) [de] Date 2007-10-12 14:39
my opinion is, that it will be very hard to improve engines in the endgame so much, that they play them equally good as the middlegame (compared to humans). in the endgame you can't rely on search too much, because the themes like kingwalks and getting a specific piece coordination to start action and so on are very often too deep. but you also can't rely on general principles (which you might be able to teach by evaluation matters), because there are too many exceptions in endings as a rule. to me the only big jump in endgame strength could theoretically be achieved by inventing more abstract terms. such abstraction would be closer to a human way of solving endgame problems. the only good thing about this dificult task is, that it should be easier to do this abstraction in the endgame than in the middlegame as material is limited and ideas ar more concrete and easier to formulate.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-10-13 09:58
What I've learned now is that working on MP search is very interesting in general and gives you insights for use with SP search. In computer chess, you very rarely work on one thing in complete isolation from everything else.

Vas
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2007-11-17 22:41
Vas has stated that in the past sales were 5:1 in favor of single-processor Rybka.  I would, however, concur 100% with LK that MP performance is the key now both for chess enthusiasts and even mainstream. The 5:1 sales ratio is from the rear-view mirror.

  Virtually everyone interested in using a computer for chess is going to at least dual-core. And the leading edge is definitely going quad-core.
This brings me to my 2 cents worth of advice: the great importance of scalability (MP performance) in Rybka 3.0.

Over the last 3 years, I have gone from single- to dual- to quad-core with very long analysis times. Even with time frames of 3-4 hours/move (longer than that on average is impractical in high-level correspondence competition), I have typically gone from about 18 ply to 27 ply in the average position. This includes a move to 64-bit.

The improvement in Kn/s is less than expected from the increase in CPU speed. Also, one of Zappa Mexico's commercial selling points was its putative better scaling to MP (whether that was true or not, I don't know.)
  Conclusion: scaling to quad-core is very, very important for Rybka 3.0.
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-11-17 22:56 Edited 2007-11-17 22:58
I doubt that the majority of mainstream chess enthusiasts goes for top (fastest) performance for their chess engines. Also, I think that even among computer chess fans, there are many who are not willing to buy the latest fastest hardware (not even the latest fastest off-the-shelf hardware). For example, I am a computer chess freak since 20+ years, a chess player (hobby player) but I will not buy a quad soon. I also don't even have a Core Duo, only a D945. I also didn't buy MP Rybka but single Rybka and I am very satisfied with it.

I want to repeat a list of examples for using an engine in single core mode:

1. Kibitz 3 or 4 games simultanously from a GM tournament, online. Assign one kibitz engine each, on a quad.
2. Interactive analysis of a game, but user doesn't want to rely on just one engine. So he runs 2 or even 3, parallel.
3. Engine match with ponder=on on a dual core cpu. One core per engine, each.
4. Long analysis of a correspondence position in the background with one core, while the user can do other things on the same computer, without performance impact of one task on the other.

I think the relation of freestyle competition (and maybe, top level correspondence chess analysis and the like) to mainstream chess is like the relation of champ car, or formula one racing to normal car traffic. That's interesting and exiting, but it doesn't mean that anybody will buy a racing car and normal cars will disappear. :-)

Also, for occasional analyses, I can replace an additional investment of $ 1,000 ore more, by just letting calculate twice or three times as long. If I only need that analysis quality once in a while and not 24/7, than it is a simple way to save money. For the everyday analysis of my own patzer games, or for easy tactical analysis etc. single core is sufficient and economical.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-11-17 23:00
     The version that played the final four games in Mexico already was much better in terms of scalability, and any further improvements in this category would probably only be worth a few Elo points on a quadcore, though perhaps on a 16 core machine there is still a decent amount left to gain. Anyway, if Vas can further improve scalab
ility without neglecting other important stuff I expect he will do so, but I don't think it's top priority anymore.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-11-22 01:04
Right, this is exactly correct. We're done with the MP support for Rybka 3 now, there is just some tweaking of parameters left.

It will become an issue again later, once we start seeing machines with 32 or more cores.

Vas
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-11-17 23:49
You have to notice that software is much more important than hardware (and OS)! Single core Shredder 11 is better than 4 core Shredder 10, single core Fritz 11 will be better than 4 core Deep Fritz 10. I demand, that Rybka 3.0 single is better than 4 core Rybka 2.3.2a. So if you are now in hurry, you can buy about 80-100 Elo by hardware (4 or 8 cores).
MP scaling is very impotant for offical tournaments like WCCC and freestyle, because here every Elo point counts. But for the normal customer of chess engines only the the playing strength and style of the single core engine counts. You have more than 1 core? Fine! But this isn´t really important for analysis of chess games.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2007-11-18 01:12
These are interesting points. However, competitors do not have days and days to analyze a position. John Timm, either in this forum or another one (ICCF, I think),  estimated that in high level ICCF chess, the player would have on average only 48 hours to analyze the typical position (he is playing 16 players simultaneously.)  So multi-core is very important for analysis of chess game.
It's a mistake to either generalize based on a sample of one or to compare apples and oranges, e.g., Shredder 11 vs. Shredder 10. The correct comparison is Shredder 11 (10) on single core vs. Shredder 11 (10) on quad-core.
Parent - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-11-18 01:57
Yes, but how many % of users or customers are in high level ICCF chess or participate in Freestyle tournaments? You may tend to overestimate their share... and I may underestimate it, by assuming it's less than 1%.

I don't think that the 4:1 ratio will change much
(that was the number given in http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=30488;hl=#pid30488 ). Also, I think it is good that these two alternative versions exist, with lower/higher price to choose from.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-11-18 02:11
So multi-core is very important for analysis of chess game.
I agree, that time is important in analysis. So multi-core is good. But not in the sense, that I reserve all my cores for one mp-engine. There are many scenarios. On a 4 core processor, I can start 4 sp engines in MV-mode for six hours and then I have a look on them for one hour. The skill of the human is important. He has to know what to do. Which position, which engines, how many variants and so on. Today, this is a real task. In the near future, when we will have 32 cores and more, it´s not so dramatic because of descending marginal utility of each mp-engine with more cores.
But what we need very much: Engines with different playing styles! Otherwise selecting of engines for the position is boring.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-11-18 03:21
I agree on the more playing styles, which is why Zappa Mexico is nice to have around.  It sounds like Naum 3 will be very strong, but on second thought, it may be worthless to buy this engine because it is simply going to be around the level of Rybka 1.2f, and with a very similar playing style--but we've had this engine for 18 months now, so from the sound of it, Naum 3 wouldn't be a very good investment unless it has perfect endgame play--I won't even talk about openings, since Naum is worse at playing the openings than many engines rated 100 points lower.
Parent - By cma6 (****) Date 2007-11-18 15:06
Excellent points from PB and RR. Not being familiar with MV-mode, I didn't think of that option.
Parent - - By richbell (**) [in] Date 2007-10-10 11:33 Edited 2007-10-10 11:39
Thanks LK. Any idea what could be the targeted ELO for single proc. before the release? I guess as per your calculation, its 25+ let's say 2 Elos per week till mid Jan 10 X 2 =20 ==> 45.

So i guess roughly we can expect 50 ELOs better in 3.0 ? (Single proc ofcourse)
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (****) [za] Date 2007-10-10 12:25
My UNLEARNED guess says that it is going to be around 50 ELOs. I just don't like the 0 KN/s thing, I hope it is not going to be there in the next release. It seems as if Rybka stops when it gets to that 0 KN/s. I hope the Bishops of opposite colours will be taken care of as well. I hated that draw against Zappa when Rybka was a couple of pawns up, but a draw because of opposite colour Bishops.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-10 12:51
Unless I'm thinking of something quite different, there is no "0 kn/s thing".  If Rybka is calling up previous moves from hash entries, there is no need to spend more time giving the user a false impression of how many kn/s were calculated during the time that it instantly called up the hash entries.  0 kn/s is the correct way to report this, and the only reason it appears to "stop thinking" is that it's analyzing the next ply, which can take awhile--often almost as long (and sometimes longer!) than the entire previous move took.
Parent - - By InspectorGadget (****) [za] Date 2007-10-10 13:52
Well, I see your explanation, but whenever it (0 KN/s) appears in my machine, it seems as if the engine just stopped. It takes a while before it makes a move. When I run an engine match or tournament it is very, very seldom. But once I play against the engine, when it appears it shows that weird behaviour of stopping for some time.

If you say it appears when it is calling up previous moves from the hash entries, what can I say?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-10-10 23:06
Right click your taskbar and then select "Task Manager". Then double click "CPU". You should see Rybka using 99%ish of it when she's thinking.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-10-11 12:15
Yes, this is correct. The good news is that the next Rybka won't do this any more - there are no more iterations, and the output is updated regularly based on a timer.

Vas
Parent - By dareapa (**) [us] Date 2007-11-18 03:26
Hi Vas, I read that you said that "2.3.2a is one -dimensional",can you elaborate what u mean by this. And does this mean that 3.0 will have many different "fish faces"(multi-dimensional)?  Is it asking to much for you to explain the new facets of rybka 3.0.  more tactical?? or will the engine have random personalities to throw opponents off?? If u can elaborate maybe u can start a new thread with ur answer.

dareapa
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-10-10 12:34
That's a reasonable guess. But we may try out some fairly radical ideas. If they don't work out, we lose a few weeks work and the gain will be less, maybe only 35. If they do work out, we may have a pleasant surprise, with no way to predict what gains are possible.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2007-10-10 13:55
Posts like this certainly keep the excitement level high!
Parent - - By richbell (**) [in] Date 2007-10-10 18:20
Cool LK. This is a pessimistic bare minimum estimation of 35-50 ELOs. I bet Vas is hungry enough to show and set the standards of 3.0 far far higher than this. Actually we don't mind waiting for even few more weeks for the release. I would appreciate if importance (i guess most of us would agree to this point) goes to higher ELOs rather than releasing by deadline.

But i wish anywhere from 100 - 150 ELOs would be awesome and do justice to Rybka's major version update. If at all some one can do it, i feel Rybka team is IT. So let's hope for the best!!!   
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-10-11 12:15
We're definitely not going to be schedule-driven for this next release. Rybka 3 will be unleashed when she's ready.

Vas
Parent - - By dareapa (**) [us] Date 2007-10-12 23:03
Will there be the frequent updates that the Rybka customer is use to? Or will 3.0 be followed by 4.0.?
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-10-13 09:59
I'm not sure yet, but any updates will be less frequent than before.

Vas
Parent - By wem511 (**) [us] Date 2007-11-19 20:19
ya would be sweet to hit a "pot of gold" like five times in one update lol.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Rybka's improvement so far from 2.3.2a!
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