Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / What is the best free chess engine to download?
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![[gb]](/mwf/v12/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
I managed to download Rybka 2.3.2 but I want something stonger. Unfortunately I don't have enough money to purchase Rybka 4 so I was wondering if anyone knew of a chess program I could download for free that is as strong as Rybka 3 or 4? If you had an url for it then that would be great. Thanks
![[us]](/mwf/v12/flags/us.png "United States")
The strongest free chess program that is not controversial in any way is Stockfish 1.9.1. It is roughly as strong as Rybka 3. You can look up its strength on the various rating lists. As for where to download it, Google and you shall find.
![[mx]](/mwf/v12/flags/mx.png "Mexico")
Second best (non-controversial) free choice is Critter 8.0.
Without wishing to incur the wrath of the forum Admins, can I just ask why some of the derivative UCI engines get so much stick & cause so much controversy?
Also, was Rybka initially developed "in a bubble" (100% from the ground up) or by looking at other engines & then creating a new engine by borrowing and/or making improvements in code?
Also, was Rybka initially developed "in a bubble" (100% from the ground up) or by looking at other engines & then creating a new engine by borrowing and/or making improvements in code?
Well a lot of it has to do with the fact that the clones water down the product so to speak (I say this with lack of a better term) Its taboo for people to do that. Of course I'm sure others can comment and give other reasons and better meanings.
No I can say Rybka is 100% the same as it was when it was made. I believe Rybka was made before the "clone wars" started. I know Fruit was one of the first to get hit. Maybe others can give some history. I hope I kept this low key enough. I didn't know how else to explain it. I guess I'll find out shortly if this post gets deleted
No I can say Rybka is 100% the same as it was when it was made. I believe Rybka was made before the "clone wars" started. I know Fruit was one of the first to get hit. Maybe others can give some history. I hope I kept this low key enough. I didn't know how else to explain it. I guess I'll find out shortly if this post gets deleted
>Without wishing to incur the wrath of the forum Admins, can I just ask why some of the derivative UCI engines get so much stick & cause so much controversy?
They use code from a closed-source, commercial program, obtained by decompiling, and this is illegal and unethical.
>Also, was Rybka initially developed "in a bubble" (100% from the ground up) or by looking at other engines & then creating the new engine by borrowing and/or making improvements in code?
Of course I cannot say for certain, but I find it unlikely that Vas used code from any closed source, commercial programs.
Undoubtedly some code "ideas" must have been taken from manuals and tutorials, and these ideas were probably standard things such as bitboards, UCI interface, elementary move generation etc. You can actually create a decent engine if you have some programming background and use the chess programming wiki.
In regards to open source software, some of it has a clause that says the code cannot be used in commercial software, but I think it is often ignored. As to whether or not he used code from open-source engines for what later became a commercial product, I can't say. I was under the impression that he used code from fruit when it was open source, I think he said so on the forums before, but he had already authored rybka 1.0 afaik. I'm not sure if Fruit had such a clause at the time.
Anyways, this dichotomy of 100% in a bubble vs. looking at other engines is oversimplifying a complex issue. You have to draw the line in a more specific place at least.
In regards to the clones, we have like a 99% positive case that their code originated from decompiled Rybka 3, and the cloners have done nothing to assuage this suspicion. So, in a way it is pirated software, and that's why it gets censored on the forum here.
> They use code from a closed-source, commercial program, obtained by decompiling, and this is illegal and unethical.
It's still censorship, though. And a mystery to me. What's the logic? "People have no idea that piracy exists, so they don't know about pirate Rybka, if they want to have Rybka, they have to buy it, knowing about [Deleted] makes them go for it instead of buying Rybka", doesn't seem realistic.
![[no]](/mwf/v12/flags/no.png "Norway")
> In regards to open source software, some of it has a clause that says the code cannot be used in commercial software, but I think it is often ignored. As to whether or not he used code from open-source engines for what later became a commercial product, I can't say. I was under the impression that he used code from fruit when it was open source, I think he said so on the forums before, but he had already authored rybka 1.0 afaik. I'm not sure if Fruit had such a clause at the time.
Fruit was released under the GPL. GPL does not prohibit you to use the code in the commercial software. However, it does require you to release your code under the GPL. Thus, you cannot use the GPL'ed code in the closed source program. If you do you violate the terms of the license that was given to you and the license becomes void. And since you no longer have a valid license you are committing the act of copyright infringement, which is in some countries a criminal offense.
If Rybka had/has Fruit code it should be released under the same terms as Fruit, i.e. GPL. Otherwise the author is committing the act of copyright infringement.
I'm not sure all of his versions were under the GPL though. There was quite a few.
Fruit 1.0 (first stable release, 2004/03/17) and later were all GPL'ed. You can take a look for yourself.
EDIT: I should probably have added that it stayed GPL'ed until version 2.2 when it became closed sourced.
EDIT: I should probably have added that it stayed GPL'ed until version 2.2 when it became closed sourced.
Of course it must be considered that actual code was not taken, but the ideas behind them.
Vas is a skilled programmer with extensive experience, this is not disputed by either side. He would not need the exact implementations.
Vas is a skilled programmer with extensive experience, this is not disputed by either side. He would not need the exact implementations.
Well, skilled programmers are not lawyers and this stuff is definitely their cup of tea. It's easy to make a mistake, but in the end you have to pay and it can cost you.
Why should your post get deleted...? sounds reasonable enough.
I see yours got edited, and I don't think that was you. I think you get the point.
No I didn't edit my post. Seems a bit petty, but then there's always the response 'if you don't like it, there's the door' I suppose.
![[ar]](/mwf/v12/flags/ar.png "Argentina")
The Friend ask "What is the best free chess engine to download?"....
zzzzzzzzzz
It's their site, and they can make the rules. If they don't want something mentioned, then they can't be mentioned.
I can understand the reasoning of not wanting a ripped clone of their product mentioned.
I can understand the reasoning of not wanting a ripped clone of their product mentioned.
With a name such as yours, Mr. Barrister, you ought to know there are legal, ethical and practical complications.
A computer chess program is a particular assemblage of programming techniques and ideas that form a whole.
Who is to say which techniques, ideas, lines of code, belong to particular programmers? Who decides who owns particular bits of intellectual property and for how long? Who decides what is in public domain and what isn't?
If you take Mozart's 40th Symphony and strip out one or two bars out of the second movement for use in another piece of work, when do you cross the line into plagiarism? When have you violated Mozart's rights?
It is all very murky and vague. The word "clone" can mean anything along a continuum of public and private, borrowed and stolen ideas. What does a "ripped clone" mean, after all? A 100% line-for-line duplicate program? At what level of rip-off are we talking "clone"? There is no answer, really, and if you think about the complicating factor of the passage of time, it gets even more cloudy. Will Vas still be banning any discussion of "Clone Program X" on his website six or seven years from now? How silly would that be?
Bottom line, intellectual property rights are rarely secure and crystal-clear. I wish they were, but they are not.
A computer chess program is a particular assemblage of programming techniques and ideas that form a whole.
Who is to say which techniques, ideas, lines of code, belong to particular programmers? Who decides who owns particular bits of intellectual property and for how long? Who decides what is in public domain and what isn't?
If you take Mozart's 40th Symphony and strip out one or two bars out of the second movement for use in another piece of work, when do you cross the line into plagiarism? When have you violated Mozart's rights?
It is all very murky and vague. The word "clone" can mean anything along a continuum of public and private, borrowed and stolen ideas. What does a "ripped clone" mean, after all? A 100% line-for-line duplicate program? At what level of rip-off are we talking "clone"? There is no answer, really, and if you think about the complicating factor of the passage of time, it gets even more cloudy. Will Vas still be banning any discussion of "Clone Program X" on his website six or seven years from now? How silly would that be?
Bottom line, intellectual property rights are rarely secure and crystal-clear. I wish they were, but they are not.
That's all well and good, but what does it have to do with my post?
I don't understand why the censoring is such a big problem for some.
Vytron was complaining that his posts were deleted, which would frustrate me greatly, but if the names are censored is that still a problem?
Please help me to understand where the frustration lies.
Is this because you want proof that said engines are clones? How could this be done without Vas providing code that is his for comparison? Do you really believe that Vas is lying about these engines being clones because there is a commercial interest?
Vytron was complaining that his posts were deleted, which would frustrate me greatly, but if the names are censored is that still a problem?
Please help me to understand where the frustration lies.
Is this because you want proof that said engines are clones? How could this be done without Vas providing code that is his for comparison? Do you really believe that Vas is lying about these engines being clones because there is a commercial interest?
What is a clone?
> Vytron was complaining that his posts were deleted, which would frustrate me greatly, but if the names are censored is that still a problem?
Just censoring the names was acceptable, at least you didn't see members quiting when I monitored the board changing them to [Deleted]!, they started quitting when entire threads were deleted without a good reason.
Like, the thread is going just fine, just like the current one, then someone posts the name of a clone in his post, and the entire thread disappears! That's ridiculous when just a word could be changed, it seems just like lazy moderation (clicking "Delete > Ok" is less effort).
That's ridiculous and unacceptable.
Lazy moderation? More like moronic incompetent idiotic boneheaded-ignoramus moderation.
Lazy moderation? More like moronic incompetent idiotic boneheaded-ignoramus moderation.
I think I posted a similar message about the forum policy before quiting moderation.
> Is this because you want proof that said engines are clones? How could this be done without Vas providing code that is his for comparison?
By taking appropriate legal actions.
A takedown notice in RIAA/MPAA style would go a long way, unless of course you're afraid of being challenged or the cloners just borrowed ideas as Vas did with Fruit and co., then it's another story.
> By taking appropriate legal actions.
>
> A takedown notice in RIAA/MPAA style would go a long way, unless of course you're afraid of being challenged or the cloners just borrowed ideas as Vas did with Fruit and co., then it's another story.
Yes, but they have perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars in record company worldwide revenues to try to protect, so the legal costs make sense. For Vas, the legal costs may well exceed his revenue from Rybka, so his hands are tied.
First there was an excuse that the Rybka team didn't know who they are. First of all, you don't have to know who they are in order to sue them. Secondly, the names of the programmers of the so-called "clones of the clones" are known. Go after them.
Then, as you said it, there is an excuse that it would costs a lot. The legal costs are there of course, but only if it goes that far. Now, do you seriously believe that the cloners would challenge the takedown notice if they'd received one, I mean knowing that your code is infringing on others copyright? And besides, the cloners also would need to pay their legal costs. So, no, I don't buy this argument. No one in their right mind would allow this to go to the court of law knowing you can't win.
So, the lack of actions from the Rybka's side is rather puzzling and makes you wonder whether they a) can't prove it, b) can, but there's no infringement as only the ideas were "copied" and since Rybka's team doesn't own any patents they can't do anything about it or c) it can backfire on themselves as there's something fishy, or should I say fruity, with their own code. These are of course just speculations and nothing more, an illustration showing that the lack of actions could be as damaging or even more.
Then, as you said it, there is an excuse that it would costs a lot. The legal costs are there of course, but only if it goes that far. Now, do you seriously believe that the cloners would challenge the takedown notice if they'd received one, I mean knowing that your code is infringing on others copyright? And besides, the cloners also would need to pay their legal costs. So, no, I don't buy this argument. No one in their right mind would allow this to go to the court of law knowing you can't win.
So, the lack of actions from the Rybka's side is rather puzzling and makes you wonder whether they a) can't prove it, b) can, but there's no infringement as only the ideas were "copied" and since Rybka's team doesn't own any patents they can't do anything about it or c) it can backfire on themselves as there's something fishy, or should I say fruity, with their own code. These are of course just speculations and nothing more, an illustration showing that the lack of actions could be as damaging or even more.
![[de]](/mwf/v12/flags/de.png "Germany")
you always need to pay your lawyer yourself, even if you win the case. you need to be sure that it's worth the time before you can do anything.
Yes, but it also applies to cloners. So, my point is that it won't go that far if you have a case. So, lawyer costs would be kept to minimal.
Your concept on how this would proceed is rather nebulous...
Remember, the alleged copyright infringement occurred in Russia. Russia has no real protection against copyright infringement, so the people working there are safe as long as they stay there.
As you point out, there are others who have allegedly used code or concepts revealed from the alleged Russian reverse engineering project. If they used the code itself, a copyright infringement action could be taken in the US (and I presume in the EU as well). But if they used the concepts, but not the code, this is specifically not covered by US copyright law (these concepts would need to be patented).
Finally, if there were someone to go after in a civilized country, and they did copy the code rather than the concept behind the code, there is still the matter of collecting from this person. If this person doesn't have any money (maybe difficult for a Norwegian to conceive), there is no point in pursuing it.
All this leads me to believe that Vas really has no legal recourse and is smart not to pursue this in the US (and I suspect in the EU as well).
Remember, the alleged copyright infringement occurred in Russia. Russia has no real protection against copyright infringement, so the people working there are safe as long as they stay there.
As you point out, there are others who have allegedly used code or concepts revealed from the alleged Russian reverse engineering project. If they used the code itself, a copyright infringement action could be taken in the US (and I presume in the EU as well). But if they used the concepts, but not the code, this is specifically not covered by US copyright law (these concepts would need to be patented).
Finally, if there were someone to go after in a civilized country, and they did copy the code rather than the concept behind the code, there is still the matter of collecting from this person. If this person doesn't have any money (maybe difficult for a Norwegian to conceive), there is no point in pursuing it.
All this leads me to believe that Vas really has no legal recourse and is smart not to pursue this in the US (and I suspect in the EU as well).
> Remember, the alleged copyright infringement occurred in Russia. Russia has no real protection against copyright infringement, so the people working there are safe as long as they stay there.
What makes you so sure? And besides their website is in the US. It's run by a San Francisco based company. Even if you were right and you couldn't get to them, you can still easily take their website down. Plus the other two project are in the EU.
> But if they used the concepts, but not the code, this is specifically not covered by US copyright law (these concepts would need to be patented).
Then these engines are not illegal.
> Finally, if there were someone to go after in a civilized country, and they did copy the code rather than the concept behind the code, there is still the matter of collecting from this person. If this person doesn't have any money (maybe difficult for a Norwegian to conceive), there is no point in pursuing it.
The point is it's damaging the community. And as I already said it, it won't go that far if Rybka team really has a case. The cloners would also need to pay their lawyers, there's no way it would go to court.
PS: We pay more in taxes and things cost far more than elsewhere, you know. To put it this way, if Obama is a socialist then you can call us a god damned commies
(Some of the Republicans called him that and it really made me laugh
)
What makes you so sure?
There are a lot of Russian based piracy sites that nobody can do anything about. This is different than say, Sweden, where it is difficult, but not impossible, to shut down pirate sites.
And besides their website is in the US. It's run by a San Francisco based company. Even if you were right and you couldn't get to them, you can still easily take their website down.
They were forced to take their stuff down from wikisoft. Then it showed up somewhere else. This is a losing battle.
Plus the other two project are in the EU.
It's hard enough for me to keep up to date on US laws!
Then these engines are not illegal.
There are plenty of experts who don't see the engines as illegal. If chess engines were a real business, and there were real legal battles over copyright, you'd have to think twice about taking on recognized industry heavyweights like Dr. Hyatt.
The point is it's damaging the community.
No more so than reverse engineering in any other business. I've seen cases in my business where a piece of equipment was taken apart and the boards were pulled apart during a reverse engineering effort. After the effort was completed, the parts were all thrown in a box and returned for warranty service...
And as I already said it, it won't go that far if Rybka team really has a case. The cloners would also need to pay their lawyers, there's no way it would go to court.
You gotta go to court, even to get a default judgment, Since Vas' adversaries wouldn't show up, Vas could most likely get a default judgment. Would that change anything? I doubt it.
We pay more in taxes and things cost far more than elsewhere, you know.
Yes, I've seen this firsthand.
To put it this way, if Obama is a socialist
Margaret Thatcher once said something to the effect of; Socialism works great until you run out of other people's money. Norway has lots of oil and not many people, hence no worries about running out of money anytime soon. The US on the other hand is heading toward bankruptcy if we don't stop spending or have a major economic improvement. Put another way, Norway can afford socialism, the US can't.
There are a lot of Russian based piracy sites that nobody can do anything about. This is different than say, Sweden, where it is difficult, but not impossible, to shut down pirate sites.
And besides their website is in the US. It's run by a San Francisco based company. Even if you were right and you couldn't get to them, you can still easily take their website down.
They were forced to take their stuff down from wikisoft. Then it showed up somewhere else. This is a losing battle.
Plus the other two project are in the EU.
It's hard enough for me to keep up to date on US laws!
Then these engines are not illegal.
There are plenty of experts who don't see the engines as illegal. If chess engines were a real business, and there were real legal battles over copyright, you'd have to think twice about taking on recognized industry heavyweights like Dr. Hyatt.
The point is it's damaging the community.
No more so than reverse engineering in any other business. I've seen cases in my business where a piece of equipment was taken apart and the boards were pulled apart during a reverse engineering effort. After the effort was completed, the parts were all thrown in a box and returned for warranty service...
And as I already said it, it won't go that far if Rybka team really has a case. The cloners would also need to pay their lawyers, there's no way it would go to court.
You gotta go to court, even to get a default judgment, Since Vas' adversaries wouldn't show up, Vas could most likely get a default judgment. Would that change anything? I doubt it.
We pay more in taxes and things cost far more than elsewhere, you know.
Yes, I've seen this firsthand.
To put it this way, if Obama is a socialist
Margaret Thatcher once said something to the effect of; Socialism works great until you run out of other people's money. Norway has lots of oil and not many people, hence no worries about running out of money anytime soon. The US on the other hand is heading toward bankruptcy if we don't stop spending or have a major economic improvement. Put another way, Norway can afford socialism, the US can't.
> There are a lot of Russian based piracy sites that nobody can do anything about. This is different than say, Sweden, where it is difficult, but not impossible, to shut down pirate sites.
I meant what made you so sure that in this case the alleged copyright infringement occurred in Russia?
> They were forced to take their stuff down from wikisoft. Then it showed up somewhere else. This is a losing battle.
Do you mean Wikipedia? Never heard of wikisoft, but there're so many of them. Anyway, cloners' site is up and running for at least a year now and didn't change its location.
> Margaret Thatcher once said something to the effect of; Socialism works great until you run out of other people's money. Norway has lots of oil and not many people, hence no worries about running out of money anytime soon. The US on the other hand is heading toward bankruptcy if we don't stop spending or have a major economic improvement. Put another way, Norway can afford socialism, the US can't.
I don't know about that. And what about France? They have an even greater heath care system. There're others too. And why can't the US afford it? And by it I don't mean hard-core communist type of socialism, but more of a social democracy oriented type. How much are you spending on the Iraq war?
I meant what made you so sure that in this case the alleged copyright infringement occurred in Russia?
Just an assumption. Maybe it's wrong. If so, it doesn't change anything. There's nobody identifiable worth going after in a copyright infringement action over here.
And what about France?
What about France? Their deficit is a larger percentage of GDP than ours, and they are having to cut back on their social programs, e.g. by delaying retirement. More cuts will be needed as their population ages, especially given their inability to breed at something resembling a replacement rate. I would certainly not point to France as a country to emulate in 2010. Germany would be a much better choice for a proponent of market socialism.
And why can't the US afford it?
As far as health care costs go, the US spends a far higher percentage of GDP on health care than any other country (~18% right now). Why is that? Well, we have more high tech gizmos in use here than anywhere else, the best paid doctors, heavily subsidized pharmaceuticals, and well paid trial lawyers.
And by it I don't mean hard-core communist type of socialism, but more of a social democracy oriented type.
Some Americans want more social services and some want less, but they all agree on one thing; Nobody wants to pay more taxes. If people don't want to pay the taxes, they need to settle for a smaller government. At least that's my philosophy...
How much are you spending on the Iraq war?
Afghanistan, Iraq, and military personnel consume 2.7% of our GDP. Another 3.6% of our GDP goes for defense procurement and R&D. The total is about four times the average EU percentage expenditure. Defense spending is less pernicious than entitlements though, because they don't develop their own constituencies. As an example, I read an article earlier today that some people in the US who have been on unemployment for 99 weeks and are losing their benefits are banding together to lobby for extending unemployment for even longer time periods. This doesn't happen with a war. Nobody is arguing that we should stay in Iraq because some company is making money on the war effort. When the argument to stay doesn't carry the day, we'll leave. But our entitlement programs will keep expanding at a rate exponentially greater than the growth rate of our economy.
Just an assumption. Maybe it's wrong. If so, it doesn't change anything. There's nobody identifiable worth going after in a copyright infringement action over here.
And what about France?
What about France? Their deficit is a larger percentage of GDP than ours, and they are having to cut back on their social programs, e.g. by delaying retirement. More cuts will be needed as their population ages, especially given their inability to breed at something resembling a replacement rate. I would certainly not point to France as a country to emulate in 2010. Germany would be a much better choice for a proponent of market socialism.
And why can't the US afford it?
As far as health care costs go, the US spends a far higher percentage of GDP on health care than any other country (~18% right now). Why is that? Well, we have more high tech gizmos in use here than anywhere else, the best paid doctors, heavily subsidized pharmaceuticals, and well paid trial lawyers.
And by it I don't mean hard-core communist type of socialism, but more of a social democracy oriented type.
Some Americans want more social services and some want less, but they all agree on one thing; Nobody wants to pay more taxes. If people don't want to pay the taxes, they need to settle for a smaller government. At least that's my philosophy...
How much are you spending on the Iraq war?
Afghanistan, Iraq, and military personnel consume 2.7% of our GDP. Another 3.6% of our GDP goes for defense procurement and R&D. The total is about four times the average EU percentage expenditure. Defense spending is less pernicious than entitlements though, because they don't develop their own constituencies. As an example, I read an article earlier today that some people in the US who have been on unemployment for 99 weeks and are losing their benefits are banding together to lobby for extending unemployment for even longer time periods. This doesn't happen with a war. Nobody is arguing that we should stay in Iraq because some company is making money on the war effort. When the argument to stay doesn't carry the day, we'll leave. But our entitlement programs will keep expanding at a rate exponentially greater than the growth rate of our economy.
> Afghanistan, Iraq, and military personnel consume 2.7% of our GDP. Another 3.6% of our GDP goes for defense procurement and R&D. The total is about four times the average EU percentage expenditure. Defense spending is less pernicious than entitlements though, because they don't develop their own constituencies. As an example, I read an article earlier today that some people in the US who have been on unemployment for 99 weeks and are losing their benefits are banding together to lobby for extending unemployment for even longer time periods. This doesn't happen with a war. Nobody is arguing that we should stay in Iraq because some company is making money on the war effort. When the argument to stay doesn't carry the day, we'll leave. But our entitlement programs will keep expanding at a rate exponentially greater than the growth rate of our economy.
I'm not sure I can agree with this assessment-
States are feeling the burden of entitlements like Medicaid. I know NY is finally taking this program out of the hands of the counties, and thankfully so.
I think entitlement programs are going to be slowly trimmed, and who knows what eventually implemented as a temporary band-aid to cover whatever is left. I don't think this will happen over night-but it is already in the air.
Putting a new meaning on the "ship of fools" here-
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/latest/lat_700601.shtml
I'm not sure why you think the state will do any better with Medicaid than the counties. I'm sure you are aware that the federal government was picking up more of the costs for this program than they otherwise would have over the last few years, but this will return to normal over the next two years, leaving New York, and most other states in an even deeper hole, especially since Medicare picks up many new unfunded mandates under Obamacare.
Of course entitlement programs will eventually be trimmed. The question is whether this will happen before or after we reach the situation that Greece and Ireland are in.
Of course entitlement programs will eventually be trimmed. The question is whether this will happen before or after we reach the situation that Greece and Ireland are in.
![[fr]](/mwf/v12/flags/fr.png "France")
> And what about France?
Speak about France as much as you like, but dont' tell rubbish like:
> by delaying retirement.
No country in the world can avoid that, if the trend is to live 100 years...
> given their inability to breed at something resembling a replacement rate.
France is pretty near that, and highest in Europe (with Ireland...
)...
Speak about France as much as you like, but dont' tell rubbish like:
> by delaying retirement.
No country in the world can avoid that, if the trend is to live 100 years...
I completely agree with your statement, because it reflects the fact that social programs cannot be independent of reality (i.e. people can't retire at 60 if they are going to live to 100). Note that the US retirement age is 5 years later, and we can't afford our retirement system (actually it is break even now, but demographics are very unfavorable).
> given their inability to breed at something resembling a replacement rate.
France is pretty near that, and highest in Europe (with Ireland...)...
You're right. France is only slightly below replacement rate. For some reason I thought France was close to Germany and Italy which are at crisis fertility rates. The US has replacement fertility rates, but only because of the large recent influx of Hispanics with higher fertility rates.
> by delaying retirement.
No country in the world can avoid that, if the trend is to live 100 years...
I completely agree with your statement, because it reflects the fact that social programs cannot be independent of reality (i.e. people can't retire at 60 if they are going to live to 100). Note that the US retirement age is 5 years later, and we can't afford our retirement system (actually it is break even now, but demographics are very unfavorable).
> given their inability to breed at something resembling a replacement rate.
France is pretty near that, and highest in Europe (with Ireland...
)... You're right. France is only slightly below replacement rate. For some reason I thought France was close to Germany and Italy which are at crisis fertility rates. The US has replacement fertility rates, but only because of the large recent influx of Hispanics with higher fertility rates.
Felix, let me compliment you for letting this thread go on. It has been a stimulating and civilized exchange of ideas on a contentious topic. Alas I doubt we'll get anywhere with it, but it serves to clarify things I think.
Me too!
An interesting discussion & I think I've learned a fair amount.
An interesting discussion & I think I've learned a fair amount.
> How could this be done without Vas providing code that is his for comparison?
It can't be done in a court of law without such proof, true, but this is beside the point.
> Do you really believe that Vas is lying about these engines being clones because there is a commercial interest?
The problem is that the word "clone" is a very broad brush when the factual details are undoubtedly much more complicated. It's like calling everyone at a left-wing rally a communist. Maybe some of them are communists. But when you get down to cases, everyone is an individual and many have ideological nuances and heresies.
Of course. Clone is just a term that everyone knows and uses, and is shorter than "Stolen code from decompiled abortion of R3 with mixed in bits from Kaissa and left over ostrich meat".
There are plenty of complexities, but it is clear to me that there was wrongdoing here, even if nothing can be done about it "officially".
..and I have yet to hear anyone stand up and say that Vas is lying. Maybe they suspect that those engines actually do use stolen code?
There are plenty of complexities, but it is clear to me that there was wrongdoing here, even if nothing can be done about it "officially".
..and I have yet to hear anyone stand up and say that Vas is lying. Maybe they suspect that those engines actually do use stolen code?
I think it is obvious that Vas's code was hacked and that some undefined number of ideas and methods were stolen. That cannot be denied and I don't think anyone has denied it. The evidence is in all these "clones" (using the word loosely) emerging from nowhere with ELO strength superior to commerical programs that have been in development for years, put forward by authors who won't give real names or explain themselves for fear of legal prosecution.
The problem is that Rybka's position right now is that nobody can come along and develop a strong new (private) program without people suggesting it borrowed ideas from Vas. That's an unsustainable position in the long run.
The problem is that Rybka's position right now is that nobody can come along and develop a strong new (private) program without people suggesting it borrowed ideas from Vas. That's an unsustainable position in the long run.
The problem is that Rybka's position right now is that nobody can come along and develop a strong new (private) program without people suggesting it borrowed ideas from Vas. That's an unsustainable position in the long run.
It's not only unsustainable, it's flat out wrong. Ideas and concepts are not protected by copyright, they are protected by patent. If you don't patent something, you try to keep it secret. Keeping it secret is better if you can get away with it. But if someone reverse engineers your product and discovers your secrets, you're screwed. Vas is screwed...
It's not only unsustainable, it's flat out wrong. Ideas and concepts are not protected by copyright, they are protected by patent. If you don't patent something, you try to keep it secret. Keeping it secret is better if you can get away with it. But if someone reverse engineers your product and discovers your secrets, you're screwed. Vas is screwed...
The patented Sassler "signature move". A rhetorical body-slam! Leaves the other person sprawled out, senseless.
>The problem is that Rybka's position right now is that nobody can come along and develop a strong new (private) program without people suggesting it borrowed ideas from Vas. That's an unsustainable position in the long run.
I believe they can!
Dear friend,
I have a very precise answer for you mozart's example. In the french law, plagiat is for at least 7 mesures (tempi) takes in the music.
Best regards
PS : it's the same for any other musical artist
I have a very precise answer for you mozart's example. In the french law, plagiat is for at least 7 mesures (tempi) takes in the music.
Best regards
PS : it's the same for any other musical artist
Thank you for the clarification. How wonderful that French law is so specific in this case! I assume you mean seven consecutive measures. Now, suppose the villain takes 6 measures here, and 6 measures there, and changes the key and the tempo from 3/4 waltz to 6/8 tarantella?
Are these "clone" programs not all tarantellas?
Are these "clone" programs not all tarantellas?
Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / What is the best free chess engine to download?
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