Poll
Rybka vs Aquarium (Closed)
| Is this predominately Rybka Forum? | 13 | 27% | |
| Is this predominately Aquarium Forum? | 4 | 8% | |
| Is this a shared Rybka/Aquarium Form on equal terms? | 16 | 33% | |
| Predominately Rybka Forum/ Aquarium as a side venture. | 16 | 33% |
Is Aquarium as popular as Rybka?
![[us]](/mwf/v12/flags/us.png "United States")
I wasn't trying to fire you up or anything. Believe me I know Rybka's importance, I've read the debates and peoples complains. I hate the bugs as much as you or anyone else does. It would be nice to hear form the big wigs more often. There are some of us that don't speak up as much as others on the issues.
I'm not making a movement to have the name of the forum or anything. You know if Dadi Jonsson decide to vote for "Is this predominately Rybka Forum" I wouldn't have a problem with that. And that would mean something because he is the one of the leading people that helps with Aquarium.
Thats not forgot there are other reasons why people have left the forum. I'm sure I could post a few threads on here for examples.
I'm not making a movement to have the name of the forum or anything. You know if Dadi Jonsson decide to vote for "Is this predominately Rybka Forum" I wouldn't have a problem with that. And that would mean something because he is the one of the leading people that helps with Aquarium.
Thats not forgot there are other reasons why people have left the forum. I'm sure I could post a few threads on here for examples.
> Is Aquarium as popular as Rybka?
Certainly not, but Aquarium is much more important to me in the overall scheme of things. Engines come and go, UI's much less so. From my perspective as a correspondence player, the strategy and philosophy that guides the Aquarium development team (advanced feature-set, focus on innovation etc.) is more important than any engine because it will yield benefits for years and years to come, no matter which engine sits atop the ratings lists.
> (advanced feature-set, focus on innovation etc.) is more important than any engine because it will yield benefits for years and years to come, no matter which engine sits atop the ratings lists.
I like this perspective-
Rybka still over shadows Aquarium. So what is missing? Perhaps an Aquarium sub-forum that cultivates an active relationship in practice with correspondence gamers- move evals and/or evaluations of engine performance et al? I don't know of any forum that has initiated that kind of unique relationship with a GUI and its members. May be it is time to move away from the Rybka mystique and cultivate a different perspective.
> May be it is time to move away from the Rybka mystique and cultivate a different perspective.
If anyone were to tell me that I would be promoting this point of view 3 years ago, I would have told them that they were crazy. My vision back in 2007 was for Rybka to have its own GUI first and foremost for engine matches and tournaments. The focus instead went into, specifically, game analysis- and the arduous task set out by Convekta to make it unique and unequalled in that regard-which was a good thing.
However, that kept the GUI on the side lines for years and left Chessbase's Fritz the dominant GUI, alongside the Shredder GUI and Arena. However, I still would like to see Aquarium become all that it can beyond the above referenced limits of a unique analysis tool ( which is a great analysis tool in the guise of a GUI ).
To say that Aquarium shares this forum equally with Rybka is ridiculous - especially considering the road Rybka is travelling down.
Aquarium needs to rise above its current reclusive status and its self imposed limitations as a singular tool for analysis in correspondence chess
You have been on this forum far longer than I have. I can probably fit you under the category of being a "rybka purist". I do respect your opinion on a lot of things for rykba and otherwise. I really didn't want to start a heated debate with you. As I would probably come off looking like a troll. I had waiting for you to state your opinion and I am in 100% agreement with you on it. It was kind of the point I was so thinking of. Because at first when I read your first statement. It came off to me as if you thought Aquarium was garbage. And I can see now that is not the case.
I've tried to to gain the respect of some of the people here (I know thats not easy to do). Believe me if I was anything like the troll the old Brandon was. There would have been no way in hell. I could have gotten a lot of the respected players to want to play in my tournament.
I've tried to to gain the respect of some of the people here (I know thats not easy to do). Believe me if I was anything like the troll the old Brandon was. There would have been no way in hell. I could have gotten a lot of the respected players to want to play in my tournament.
> I really didn't want to start a heated debate with you
You didn't! And I never thought you were trolling.
> Aquarium needs to rise above its current reclusive status and its self imposed limitations as a singular tool for analysis in correspondence chess
I don't pretend to understand the business of chess software but I think one of Aquarium's strongest selling points is that it's really the only chess UI specifically designed for analysis. Fritz and Arena have analysis features but the primary focus has always been on playing chess in some form (sparring, practice, training, engine vs engine, etc). In some ways, Fritz is more akin to Chessmaster with it's pretty 3d boards, coaches and various training aids designed to help players improve their OTB skills. That's why Chessbase can get away with including the same old analysis features in Fritz year in and year out - analysis just isn't what the program is all about. Someone, somewhere, really digs those sizzle meters!
Viewed in that light, maybe it's not such a bad idea for Aquarium to specialize in analysis since it's an area that's been largely ignored by the big boys.
Moz,
Who is arguing what here?
I am not concerned about meters or other bells and whistles- but functionality that affords the user an inclusive data base of information in running match/tournament games in conjunction with a great analysis tool. This lacking ( at least until the next generation of Aquarium is published ) remains and has always remained absent in the GUI. This was not supposed to be the case.
Let's take a look at a communication I received in 2007 regarding what could be expected in the development of this GUI!
.................................................................................................................................................................
I requested from Convekta a sense of what we can look forward to with regard to the Rybka up and coming GUI and release date:
[Quote:" >Will it have comprehensive analysis tools
Yes, it is being developed right now.
Yes.
May be some limited support in earlier versions. We are going to develop
comprehensive set of these tools a bit later.
Yes, we hope so.
Just to "get you excited" I'll mention several features of the upcoming
GUI:
- Opening books: creating and editing
- Engine-engine matches, tournaments, engine validation and testing
- A completely new user interface
In general, we're going to release the all-way-round capable GUI which
eventually will become an adequate Fritz competitor.
Best regards,
Aleksander Zhuravliov,
Convekta Ltd.
Support Team
http://www.chessassistant.com]
If over the years this plan had come into fruition Rybka and Aquarium would most certainly have been equally prominent on this forum.
Who is arguing what here?
I am not concerned about meters or other bells and whistles- but functionality that affords the user an inclusive data base of information in running match/tournament games in conjunction with a great analysis tool. This lacking ( at least until the next generation of Aquarium is published ) remains and has always remained absent in the GUI. This was not supposed to be the case.
Let's take a look at a communication I received in 2007 regarding what could be expected in the development of this GUI!
.................................................................................................................................................................
I requested from Convekta a sense of what we can look forward to with regard to the Rybka up and coming GUI and release date:
[Quote:" >Will it have comprehensive analysis tools
Yes, it is being developed right now.
>a tool or users current elo
Yes.
>chess coach
May be some limited support in earlier versions. We are going to develop
comprehensive set of these tools a bit later.
>Do you have any ideas as to whether this will be ready by summer?
Yes, we hope so.
Just to "get you excited" I'll mention several features of the upcoming
GUI:
- Opening books: creating and editing
- Engine-engine matches, tournaments, engine validation and testing
- A completely new user interface
In general, we're going to release the all-way-round capable GUI which
eventually will become an adequate Fritz competitor.
Best regards,
Aleksander Zhuravliov,
Convekta Ltd.
Support Team
http://www.chessassistant.com]
If over the years this plan had come into fruition Rybka and Aquarium would most certainly have been equally prominent on this forum.
> Who is arguing what here?
I'm not arguing about anything and if it came across that way it was purely unintentional (I blame the medium!)
In a round about way, I guess I was trying to say that I like where Aquarium is going and fear that expanding the scope of the application will exacerbate the 'feature creep' problem that plagued Chess Assistant (resulting in an application that was overly complex and downright hostile to new users)
I've heard some people say that Aquarium can be a tough customer to. When it comes to learning the system. But after watching the videos for CA. I tend to believe you on that one.
> I've heard some people say that Aquarium can be a tough customer to. When it comes to learning the system. But after watching the videos for CA. I tend to believe you on that one.
It is my understanding that the issue of providing understandable tutorials is being addressed with renewed energy and with finesse.
I know everyone has a different issue with it. For me I understand the basics of it. But find it hard sometimes to use it to its full abilities.
The next poll will be to determine a more appropriate name for this forum.
Clearly- RYBKA CHESS COMMUNITY FORUM- no longer cuts it.
Here is my suggestion-
AQUARIUM FORUM OF ADVANCED COMPUTER CHESS ANALYSIS
P.S
This should also be open to all chess engines used in analysis! (wink wink nudge nudge know what i mean! Say_ no_ more! )
Clearly- RYBKA CHESS COMMUNITY FORUM- no longer cuts it.
Here is my suggestion-
AQUARIUM FORUM OF ADVANCED COMPUTER CHESS ANALYSIS
P.S
This should also be open to all chess engines used in analysis! (wink wink nudge nudge know what i mean! Say_ no_ more! )
Apropo of changing the appellation of this forum and in accordance with the ensuing rapprochement with all chess engine, I think it would be appropriate to change the sub forum headings.
The most obvious are those that use Rybka as the basis for discussion. The most obvious inclusion would be that of "IDeA Discussion" (this should not be confused with a sub forum for bug reports!) . I'm sure another sub forum could be "The Sandbox."
Damn it to hell- there had better be a sub forum regarding "Engine Comp and Analysis" ! Or all bets are off!\
P.S
Martin Thoresen and his deviltry could then be moved from out of the cellar into the light of day and presented in the - YES! ENGINE COMP AND ANALYSIS sub forum.
The most obvious are those that use Rybka as the basis for discussion. The most obvious inclusion would be that of "IDeA Discussion" (this should not be confused with a sub forum for bug reports!
) . I'm sure another sub forum could be "The Sandbox." Damn it to hell- there had better be a sub forum regarding "Engine Comp and Analysis" ! Or all bets are off!\
P.S
Martin Thoresen and his deviltry could then be moved from out of the cellar into the light of day and presented in the - YES! ENGINE COMP AND ANALYSIS sub forum.
We should have a contest to rename the forum:
Remember Rybka? Chess Community Forum
Remember Rybka? Chess Community Forum
+1
Remember Rybka?
Oh! You mean the chess engine that got that one update three years ago! Or was it four years ago?
Remember Rybka?
Oh! You mean the chess engine that got that one update three years ago! Or was it four years ago?
I would even suggest that one is greeted with opening music when they log in !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT22BZ5gGbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT22BZ5gGbU
Here is my proposal to Felix- (clearly about a third of the forum sees Aquarium as having a strong presence.
My suggestion would be this-
Should Aquarium 4.0.6 be released before Rybka 4+ - then Rybka should be restricted to her "Aquarium fish bowl" and the bowl should get equal billing.
However, if Rybka 4+ is released before Aquarium 4.0.6 - then nothing changes and Rybka remains predominantly- a free ranging fish.
My suggestion would be this-
Should Aquarium 4.0.6 be released before Rybka 4+ - then Rybka should be restricted to her "Aquarium fish bowl" and the bowl should get equal billing.
However, if Rybka 4+ is released before Aquarium 4.0.6 - then nothing changes and Rybka remains predominantly- a free ranging fish.
I feel you there. I just have a feeling Aquarium 4 update will be out before Rybka 4 update.
> I feel you there. I just have a feeling Aquarium 4 update will be out before Rybka 4 update.
Actually, I think this one might be a toss up. One is over loaded in complexity and having troubles. While the other tries to maintain integrity with having less assets.
You have to wonder about both-
Then we should suggest the forum heading read something along the lines of what Alan was suggesting.
THE RYBKA-AQUARIUM MEMORIAL FORUM
Well I guess we at least have beta testing for Aquarium 4.06. I guess that doesn't mean much, because I've been hearing that for over a month and a half.
The more complex that they make it-the more problems bubble up. Probably, right now there is more analysis going into it than there is coming out of it.
I got a good question for you. How did people get chosen to be beta testers!? I've never seen a person post about this. But I'm sure leaving this someone will dig up some dirt for me to look at.
Here is a post that I think answers your question from back in May of 2007-an email communication from Convekta posted on the forum. I was allowed access given my initial roll in getting this thing off the ground. It wasn't easy going. Initially, there was a great deal of resistance to my idea of having a GUI for Rybka-people were saying that there were enough GUI's out there to accommodate Rybka and another one wasn't necessary.
received this e-mail from Convekta-I am posting this e-mail because of the opportunity it engenders. I, personally, am a little daunted to undertake the endeavor to be a beta tester. However, I think there are some very qualified persons that participate in this forum that would fit the mold.
Since this is Vas's forum I am hoping he will make some determinations on how this may be handled.
However, this could turn into a real nightmare for both this forum and Convectka. This is a unique opportunity.
[Hi Robert,
Now we are going to form team of Rybka GUI beta testers. The status of
GUI is the following:
1) Main architecture is defined
2) Drafts of modes are ready
3) Documentation and help: very poor
4) We need to know first reaction to GUI from technically prepared
users and to know what seems most interesting (and not good) to them.
5) We are open for any discussions
6) We are ready to do major changes in any mode if most testers will
vote for this.
7) We are going to finish development of GUI in two months. (It doesn't
mean that it will be released just after this.)
If you are interested to participate let me know. Some details about your
interests in chess software would be interesting.
Victor Zakharov,
Rybka GUI team]
p.S.
Without Dagh Nielsen's (Alkelele) support and creative input from the outset-and the on going efforts of Dadi Jonsson-I don't think this project would have been as special as it is today. That is my personal feeling.
received this e-mail from Convekta-I am posting this e-mail because of the opportunity it engenders. I, personally, am a little daunted to undertake the endeavor to be a beta tester. However, I think there are some very qualified persons that participate in this forum that would fit the mold.
Since this is Vas's forum I am hoping he will make some determinations on how this may be handled.
However, this could turn into a real nightmare for both this forum and Convectka. This is a unique opportunity.
[Hi Robert,
Now we are going to form team of Rybka GUI beta testers. The status of
GUI is the following:
1) Main architecture is defined
2) Drafts of modes are ready
3) Documentation and help: very poor
4) We need to know first reaction to GUI from technically prepared
users and to know what seems most interesting (and not good) to them.
5) We are open for any discussions
6) We are ready to do major changes in any mode if most testers will
vote for this.
7) We are going to finish development of GUI in two months. (It doesn't
mean that it will be released just after this.)
If you are interested to participate let me know. Some details about your
interests in chess software would be interesting.
Victor Zakharov,
Rybka GUI team]
p.S.
Without Dagh Nielsen's (Alkelele) support and creative input from the outset-and the on going efforts of Dadi Jonsson-I don't think this project would have been as special as it is today. That is my personal feeling.
> I've heard some people say that Aquarium can be a tough customer to
If I put myself in the shoes of a new Aquarium user, I'm sympathetic to that argument. My first experience with CA was version 9 and arriving late to the party (so to speak) made it very difficult to get acclimated. When you start using software at the very beginning of it's life cycle, it's much easier to adjust to incremental changes. I think developers often forget about that - they're used to the software, so they tend not to notice complexity creeping into the application. A little feature here, a little feature there - it comes easy to experienced users. But for new users, the cumulative impact can be quite overwhelming.
When the beta testers are all ultra experienced users, these kinds of problems go unnoticed and tend to get much worse over time. Including new/inexperienced users in beta tests can help to mitigate the problem of ever-increasing complexity. Unfortunately, that's not always practical for small companies since these users require a lot more attention and hand holding.
Excellent analysis. Aquarium would probably be selling a lot more copies if it were easier for newbies to use, even if this meant experienced users had to type a few more keystrokes. It is a fine product for those users willing to climb a steep learning curve and make use of it for tens of hours every week, but this leaves out the majority of potential customers.
> resulting in an application that was overly complex and downright hostile to new users)
I don't see this as having any real bearing on any implemented changes that I consider important-concomitant to IDeA (which I would consider more relevant to your concerns.).
> changes that I consider important
Can you elaborate on this? I saw that you highlighted engine tournaments in a previous post (an area that's much improved in 4.06) but what else did you have in mind?
> I saw that you highlighted engine tournaments in a previous post (an area that's much improved in 4.06) but what else did you have in mind?
Needless to say that I am aware of the improvements- and I will leave it at that..
To delineate importance is purely subjective speculation when comparing apples and oranges. Both, the chess engine and the GUI have their individual place of importance. Which is more prominent or popular -is another story.
addendum:
I am hopeful that with the added changes- Aquarium will be seen as the all around answer to the chess enthusiasts needs. That versatility, I would hope will also make it a more prominent feature of this forum.
Until that happens -it is just not there!
I don't hear anyone delimiting the value of IDeA-
But, God all mighty! This sacred cow is not a standalone tool-but, one important aspect of the whole functioning GUI. Whether a certain number of people what to believe it or not, it should not be exclusively developed at the cost of the other parts of the interface and that is what has happened. When this is rectified then I think we will see more people using the GUI for its other functions as well.
Amen to that, and hallelujah
But, God all mighty! This sacred cow is not a standalone tool-but, one important aspect of the whole functioning GUI. Whether a certain number of people what to believe it or not, it should not be exclusively developed at the cost of the other parts of the interface and that is what has happened. When this is rectified then I think we will see more people using the GUI for its other functions as well.
Amen to that, and hallelujah
Using IA and IDeA together, interactively is far better than either alone. That said; Aquarium does have some problems but, it is a far better tool for analysis than anything else. It still has a ways to go in engine matchs, etc.
> Someone, somewhere, really digs those sizzle meters!
![[ar]](/mwf/v12/flags/ar.png "Argentina")
I am agree 100 %.
![[nl]](/mwf/v12/flags/nl.png "Netherlands")
+1
Now that Aquarium 4.0.6 has been liberated from adumbration to substantial materiality, and Rybka 4.1 continues to remain a ghostly, if not, dreamy chimera (A deep-sea fish..)- I wonder if Aquarium's presence has strengthened a more influential hold on the forum.
I was waiting for some of the votes to come in. To me this seem easy enough to answer. They are both important to this forum. There are people who like Rybka and there are a lot of people who use Aquarium
![[gb]](/mwf/v12/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
i have been thinking about getting aquarium for a while now but i still need some convincing. at the moment i use fritz and very rarely arena gui's. i also play a lot of corres' chess on iccf. so what would be the advantages in gettign aquarium for somebody like me, that is a user more interested in corres' chess than in computer chess, the type that use the playchess engine room? i have all the leadign engines and when a new one comes out it isn't too long before i have that as well, but engines will only provide so much interest even to the die hard computer chess enthusiast. i am always on the look out for good chess software but i know next to nothing about aquarium. it doesn't seem to be marketed/advertised anywhere near as forcefully as chessbase products are. therefore i know nothing about it. i have heard mention of a IDEA feature (i am almost sure i have typed that wrong), or something along those lines, but i have no idea what that is. so that do i get with aquarium that i don't already get with fritz, and in a very attractive way? fritz, it must be said does look the best and i have no problems with it, so it would take something fairly important to make me buy aquarium. what is the market share between these two anyway, that would be interesting to know. even including chess asst in that.
Aquarium would fit the bill for your needs!
Everything was fine-the next move seemed clearly presented! Then suddenly all went blank!
Addendum:
There goes that correspondence game!
Addendum:
There goes that correspondence game!
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