|Is this predominately Rybka Forum?||13||27%|
|Is this predominately Aquarium Forum?||4||8%|
|Is this a shared Rybka/Aquarium Form on equal terms?||16||33%|
|Predominately Rybka Forum/ Aquarium as a side venture.||16||33%|
I'm not making a movement to have the name of the forum or anything. You know if Dadi Jonsson decide to vote for "Is this predominately Rybka Forum" I wouldn't have a problem with that. And that would mean something because he is the one of the leading people that helps with Aquarium.
Thats not forgot there are other reasons why people have left the forum. I'm sure I could post a few threads on here for examples.
> Is Aquarium as popular as Rybka?
Certainly not, but Aquarium is much more important to me in the overall scheme of things. Engines come and go, UI's much less so. From my perspective as a correspondence player, the strategy and philosophy that guides the Aquarium development team (advanced feature-set, focus on innovation etc.) is more important than any engine because it will yield benefits for years and years to come, no matter which engine sits atop the ratings lists.
> (advanced feature-set, focus on innovation etc.) is more important than any engine because it will yield benefits for years and years to come, no matter which engine sits atop the ratings lists.
I like this perspective-
Rybka still over shadows Aquarium. So what is missing? Perhaps an Aquarium sub-forum that cultivates an active relationship in practice with correspondence gamers- move evals and/or evaluations of engine performance et al? I don't know of any forum that has initiated that kind of unique relationship with a GUI and its members. May be it is time to move away from the Rybka mystique and cultivate a different perspective.
> May be it is time to move away from the Rybka mystique and cultivate a different perspective.
If anyone were to tell me that I would be promoting this point of view 3 years ago, I would have told them that they were crazy. My vision back in 2007 was for Rybka to have its own GUI first and foremost for engine matches and tournaments. The focus instead went into, specifically, game analysis- and the arduous task set out by Convekta to make it unique and unequalled in that regard-which was a good thing.
However, that kept the GUI on the side lines for years and left Chessbase's Fritz the dominant GUI, alongside the Shredder GUI and Arena. However, I still would like to see Aquarium become all that it can beyond the above referenced limits of a unique analysis tool ( which is a great analysis tool in the guise of a GUI ).
To say that Aquarium shares this forum equally with Rybka is ridiculous - especially considering the road Rybka is travelling down.
Aquarium needs to rise above its current reclusive status and its self imposed limitations as a singular tool for analysis in correspondence chess
I've tried to to gain the respect of some of the people here (I know thats not easy to do). Believe me if I was anything like the troll the old Brandon was. There would have been no way in hell. I could have gotten a lot of the respected players to want to play in my tournament.
> I really didn't want to start a heated debate with you
You didn't! And I never thought you were trolling.
> Aquarium needs to rise above its current reclusive status and its self imposed limitations as a singular tool for analysis in correspondence chess
I don't pretend to understand the business of chess software but I think one of Aquarium's strongest selling points is that it's really the only chess UI specifically designed for analysis. Fritz and Arena have analysis features but the primary focus has always been on playing chess in some form (sparring, practice, training, engine vs engine, etc). In some ways, Fritz is more akin to Chessmaster with it's pretty 3d boards, coaches and various training aids designed to help players improve their OTB skills. That's why Chessbase can get away with including the same old analysis features in Fritz year in and year out - analysis just isn't what the program is all about. Someone, somewhere, really digs those sizzle meters!
Viewed in that light, maybe it's not such a bad idea for Aquarium to specialize in analysis since it's an area that's been largely ignored by the big boys.
Who is arguing what here?
I am not concerned about meters or other bells and whistles- but functionality that affords the user an inclusive data base of information in running match/tournament games in conjunction with a great analysis tool. This lacking ( at least until the next generation of Aquarium is published ) remains and has always remained absent in the GUI. This was not supposed to be the case.
Let's take a look at a communication I received in 2007 regarding what could be expected in the development of this GUI!
I requested from Convekta a sense of what we can look forward to with regard to the Rybka up and coming GUI and release date:
[Quote:" >Will it have comprehensive analysis tools
Yes, it is being developed right now.
>a tool or users current elo
May be some limited support in earlier versions. We are going to develop
comprehensive set of these tools a bit later.
>Do you have any ideas as to whether this will be ready by summer?
Yes, we hope so.
Just to "get you excited" I'll mention several features of the upcoming
- Opening books: creating and editing
- Engine-engine matches, tournaments, engine validation and testing
- A completely new user interface
In general, we're going to release the all-way-round capable GUI which
eventually will become an adequate Fritz competitor.
If over the years this plan had come into fruition Rybka and Aquarium would most certainly have been equally prominent on this forum.
> Who is arguing what here?
I'm not arguing about anything and if it came across that way it was purely unintentional (I blame the medium!)
In a round about way, I guess I was trying to say that I like where Aquarium is going and fear that expanding the scope of the application will exacerbate the 'feature creep' problem that plagued Chess Assistant (resulting in an application that was overly complex and downright hostile to new users)
> I've heard some people say that Aquarium can be a tough customer to. When it comes to learning the system. But after watching the videos for CA. I tend to believe you on that one.
It is my understanding that the issue of providing understandable tutorials is being addressed with renewed energy and with finesse.
Clearly- RYBKA CHESS COMMUNITY FORUM- no longer cuts it.
Here is my suggestion-
AQUARIUM FORUM OF ADVANCED COMPUTER CHESS ANALYSIS
This should also be open to all chess engines used in analysis! (wink wink nudge nudge know what i mean! Say_ no_ more! )
The most obvious are those that use Rybka as the basis for discussion. The most obvious inclusion would be that of "IDeA Discussion" (this should not be confused with a sub forum for bug reports! ) . I'm sure another sub forum could be "The Sandbox."
Damn it to hell- there had better be a sub forum regarding "Engine Comp and Analysis" ! Or all bets are off!\
Martin Thoresen and his deviltry could then be moved from out of the cellar into the light of day and presented in the - YES! ENGINE COMP AND ANALYSIS sub forum.
Remember Rybka? Chess Community Forum
Oh! You mean the chess engine that got that one update three years ago! Or was it four years ago?
My suggestion would be this-
Should Aquarium 4.0.6 be released before Rybka 4+ - then Rybka should be restricted to her "Aquarium fish bowl" and the bowl should get equal billing.
However, if Rybka 4+ is released before Aquarium 4.0.6 - then nothing changes and Rybka remains predominantly- a free ranging fish.
> I feel you there. I just have a feeling Aquarium 4 update will be out before Rybka 4 update.
Actually, I think this one might be a toss up. One is over loaded in complexity and having troubles. While the other tries to maintain integrity with having less assets.
You have to wonder about both-
Then we should suggest the forum heading read something along the lines of what Alan was suggesting.
THE RYBKA-AQUARIUM MEMORIAL FORUM
received this e-mail from Convekta-I am posting this e-mail because of the opportunity it engenders. I, personally, am a little daunted to undertake the endeavor to be a beta tester. However, I think there are some very qualified persons that participate in this forum that would fit the mold.
Since this is Vas's forum I am hoping he will make some determinations on how this may be handled.
However, this could turn into a real nightmare for both this forum and Convectka. This is a unique opportunity.
Now we are going to form team of Rybka GUI beta testers. The status of
GUI is the following:
1) Main architecture is defined
2) Drafts of modes are ready
3) Documentation and help: very poor
4) We need to know first reaction to GUI from technically prepared
users and to know what seems most interesting (and not good) to them.
5) We are open for any discussions
6) We are ready to do major changes in any mode if most testers will
vote for this.
7) We are going to finish development of GUI in two months. (It doesn't
mean that it will be released just after this.)
If you are interested to participate let me know. Some details about your
interests in chess software would be interesting.
Rybka GUI team]
Without Dagh Nielsen's (Alkelele) support and creative input from the outset-and the on going efforts of Dadi Jonsson-I don't think this project would have been as special as it is today. That is my personal feeling.
> I've heard some people say that Aquarium can be a tough customer to
If I put myself in the shoes of a new Aquarium user, I'm sympathetic to that argument. My first experience with CA was version 9 and arriving late to the party (so to speak) made it very difficult to get acclimated. When you start using software at the very beginning of it's life cycle, it's much easier to adjust to incremental changes. I think developers often forget about that - they're used to the software, so they tend not to notice complexity creeping into the application. A little feature here, a little feature there - it comes easy to experienced users. But for new users, the cumulative impact can be quite overwhelming.
When the beta testers are all ultra experienced users, these kinds of problems go unnoticed and tend to get much worse over time. Including new/inexperienced users in beta tests can help to mitigate the problem of ever-increasing complexity. Unfortunately, that's not always practical for small companies since these users require a lot more attention and hand holding.
> resulting in an application that was overly complex and downright hostile to new users)
I don't see this as having any real bearing on any implemented changes that I consider important-concomitant to IDeA (which I would consider more relevant to your concerns.).
> changes that I consider important
Can you elaborate on this? I saw that you highlighted engine tournaments in a previous post (an area that's much improved in 4.06) but what else did you have in mind?
> I saw that you highlighted engine tournaments in a previous post (an area that's much improved in 4.06) but what else did you have in mind?
Needless to say that I am aware of the improvements- and I will leave it at that..
To delineate importance is purely subjective speculation when comparing apples and oranges. Both, the chess engine and the GUI have their individual place of importance. Which is more prominent or popular -is another story.
I am hopeful that with the added changes- Aquarium will be seen as the all around answer to the chess enthusiasts needs. That versatility, I would hope will also make it a more prominent feature of this forum.
Until that happens -it is just not there!
But, God all mighty! This sacred cow is not a standalone tool-but, one important aspect of the whole functioning GUI. Whether a certain number of people what to believe it or not, it should not be exclusively developed at the cost of the other parts of the interface and that is what has happened. When this is rectified then I think we will see more people using the GUI for its other functions as well.
Amen to that, and hallelujah
> Someone, somewhere, really digs those sizzle meters!
There goes that correspondence game!
Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill