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- - By FWCC (***) [us] Date 2007-10-13 02:14
On the 26th-28th of October the 27th Open Dutch Computer Chess Championship takes place.It is here that I believe that Rybka will redeem herself and show her true might once again to show that She truly is in a class alone.I'm sure the Rybka crew is itching for a victory in this tourney.As I type this Zappa has not entered(Where are you Zappa team?)I predict a Rybka victory of 7.5/9.The short match in Mexico only proves that Zappa scales better on an octal nothing more,Rybka is still the strongest as Vas is working on the scaling problem and we can expect a monster of a release with Rybka 3.0(Vas take your time).I see that Junior will be there playing on an 8 way OR 16way as mentioned.Junior's performance should be carefully watched also as he along with Hiarcs and Spike could be a threat to Rybka,anything can happen as always.But where is Zappa?Larry without telling too much mainly what version of Rybka will be there,something like the version in the last half of the Mexico match?Will lessons learned in Mexico be implemented at Leiden?All of this is good on the approach to Rybka 3.0 coming maybe early next year.Good luck to everyone involved!

Chess is my life but my life is not only chess
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2007-10-13 06:47
I asked Erdo whether or not Zappa will play. Zappa will not play, because Anthony doesn't want it to play - was his reply.

Parent - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-10-13 07:14
Yes it would be nice if Zappa would play ... for sure Erdo would love to be there.  But we have to respect Anthony's reasons for not wanting to join.  It seems that Anthony wants to save it all for a re-match against Rybka.  I really hope that Anthony continues working and improving Zappa.  Even without Zappa it will not be a cakewalk by any means.  There is some strong opposition with new engines and extremely strong hardware that are not yet out ... Hiarcs, Junior, Shredder ... and Spike MP.  All have good chances ... this is even more evident after watching the Zappa vs. Rybka match ...  Proper preparation is extremely important in such short tournaments.  Junior is known to always be well prepared for such events and it seems that they will be ready with hardware and software as well as being booked up to the hilt.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 16:20
Anthony doesn't want it to play; this is interesting--he must have found a way to get rid of many of the bugs that showed up in Mexico.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 16:46
Anthony not wanting to play in Leiden is not at all surprising. The quickest way to dissipate the momentum from his high visibility victory in Mexico would be a loss in a computer tournament. I'm sure he's hoping to get something with a bigger payback.

Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 17:11 Edited 2007-10-13 17:26
Anthony!!! Anthony is the biggest Blow hard this side of chess engine competition. He takes a small win off of an old Rybka version and then melts into the woodwork hoping the world of chess engine competition will call it a World Cup Win. Dream on Anthony. I wish I could say he should stick with his academics but even there things look questionable.

sidserious-I do simply love being "deranged."

P.S. You put yourself out there loverboy-now soak it up. Jack!!!

Oh! Don't worry about Sylvanus-or, Peter Pan-(that's what it should be) I'll calm down after my next dose of meds.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 17:56
Hahaha, forget the meds--I think some people are wondering if you have a crayon in your brain :-)
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 18:46
Is that right! :-)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 21:59

You need to get over this. Everyone here, with the exception of turbo constitute the unwashed, knuckle dragging masses. Somehow, while hanging around in this cesspool, Turbo became enlightened (a major evolutionary step, no doubt). You on the other hand are deranged (along with being a member of the unwashed, knuckle dragging masses) and probably still have a tail as well.

Sometimes the truth hurts! :-)

Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2007-10-13 22:19
thats very stong language alan .
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 22:39
Robert will know that I am just jealous...

Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 23:58
Turbo became enlightened

Cue the lights and chorus :-)

You on the other hand are deranged (along with being a member of the unwashed, knuckle dragging masses) and probably still have a tail as well.

I believe that if Michael Waesch is still reading the posts on this forum, he could have a perfect "character picture" to add here, similar to his legendary character picture of a troll that he added in a reply to Robert that said, "DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!"
Parent - By Kapaun (****) [de] Date 2007-10-15 10:59
Now this issue is much more suiting for getting a little "deranged". It's one thing cleverly using weak spots of the opponent, but it is a completely different matter not to play at all, because.... (well, we all know why, I guess)
That's a behaviour usually shown by... you know, this big chess company...
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-10-14 00:49
I agree! And when Zappa has started in Leiden and won this tournament, all the people here prays the same slogan: "Luck". Zappa has nothing to prove now. Rybka has to win in Leiden! If she don´t win: "Bad Luck(?)". Maybe, but this are not the rules for competitions we have every day. You have to prove, that you are the very best every time. If you failed, you have to wait humble. A new chance will come, but you can´t demand them.
Parent - By stephenNJUKI (**) Date 2007-10-14 09:01
Anthony is unfairly protecting his win but you have to admit it.. the Rybka team blew it. They went into game 10, needing a win, with white pieces and..

Sometimes its not the many statistical games that matter, but rather winning the key matches... what some call the mark of a champion.

Any way with time lets hope Rybka settles the score :)
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 18:54 Edited 2007-10-13 19:03
Hey turbo-

I think you meant to say that he has probably " not " found a way to get rid of the many bugs that showed up in Mexico. Get thoses Grayon out of your brain turbo-that was a first class projection you through at me. :-) You want one of my meds, man?


But, look it! My quibble is not with you. I think Cozzie is being very ingenuous by playing safe-but that is his business. What gets me is his crassness to come on to this forum and stir up trouble. Then to make it a point to not enter into a " recognized tournament. " In the words of one of our most esteemed forum members- this guy is " bullshit!"
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-10-13 18:56
Hi Robert,

You should come and see us in Leiden some of the meds you are on are legal in Holland.

Best Wishes,

Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 19:09
Hi Harvey,

Actually, I kept to the simple-stuff that is purported to have in it 460 chemicals but does the trick just the same. Like Ginsberg, " I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,..."


Parent - - By FWCC (***) [us] Date 2007-10-13 19:23
I guess Anthony wants to soak all of the attention up and stay in the spotlight for as long as he can.Can you blame him but don't tuck tail Anthony and sip taquila's too much.Enjoy while you can!
Parent - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 19:31

Without being in the Leiden comp-he will no longer be in the spot light. That will end it for him. If not just the knowledge that he failed to show.

Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-14 05:17
It figures, LSD-fueled beatnik poetry.  Is this what this forum has come to? 
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 19:53

I read an article earlier this week that said that hallucinogenic mushrooms are no longer legal in the Netherlands.

Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:19
No, I mean to say that I think he HAS found a way to get rid of many of the bugs, but that this hasn't been accomplished yet.  I could be quite wrong, of course.

I believe that you meant to say "crayon", not "Grayon", and that you meant that I "threw" the projection at you, not "through", unless you believe both that it happened and that it went straight through you.  :-P  As for the meds, I think I'll stay away from them--I'm afraid of how they might affect my running.

I'm not sure what you mean by Anthony "stirring up trouble"...
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 20:24
Hey! You got me on semantics turbo!
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:26
Yes, hence the ":-P"
Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 19:29

I don't know to much about Junior but Hiarcs and Spike are cause for concern. Spike has been incognito for the entire year-who the hell knows what they have. Hiarcs is right up there-Junior to my know used to be a contender. I would miss this for anything.

Harvey! will you be carrying this on Playchess?

Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-10-13 19:54 Edited 2007-10-13 19:56
Hi Robert,

I will be operating Hiarcs in Leiden so I doubt I will have time to also relay it on Playchess. But I will try to find a way to get all Hiarcs games shown live.

Best Wishes,

Parent - - By Dr.X (Gold) Date 2007-10-13 20:16
Hi Harvey,

Well, in that event, the very best of luck to you and the Hiarcs Team!


Parent - By FWCC (***) [us] Date 2007-10-14 07:06
Hey by the way Sid,don't let those Rybka haters get away with callin you "deranged" man!Tell em to take a chill pill and get onbaord the Rybka train!Damn Rybka haters yea chill out Anthony!
Parent - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2007-10-14 08:20
Yes, I second that - Hiarcs has been a great engine over the years and it would be a fitting reward to Mark for all the great novelties he has brought in to the world of chess programming.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:22
Since you're operating it, can we make some requests for openings that we want to see? :-D
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-10-13 20:23
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:25
Anything within the ECO codes C30-C39.  If you're able to persuade one of your opponents to play it instead, that will suffice.  :-)
Parent - - By Permanent Brain (*****) Date 2007-10-13 19:47
Appearently, there will be a new The King MP/64 bit version among the participants. A screenshot on the Chessmaster XI web page shows a King 3.50_64 engine exe. I don't know on how many cores King will run in Leiden (in the preliminary participants list, a dual "only"?), anyway, it should not be underestimated.

Maybe The King will have a strong comeback? I would like to see it. We always need good new opponents for our Rybka, to avoid that she will suffer from boredom :-D

Btw. as a background music for the Rybka website, maybe this song could be licensed:

"Lonely at the top" (c) Randy Newman :-)

Ev'rybody knows my name
But it's just a crazy game
Oh, it's lonely at the top
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:00
I think we can be VERY safe in assuming that The King will not be in the top tier in Leiden.  Keep in mind that I'm saying this as the person who preached caution from the very beginning regarding Zappa Mexico.
Parent - - By dareapa (**) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:07
Do u believe that the King has no chance because of the elo jump that the King will have to exhibit inorder to be in the top tier, or is it because the King is no good? just curious.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-13 20:15
I think it's because of the elo jump; I'm sure that on a fast computer, even with only one processor (say, one core of one of those QX 6850's overclocked to 5 GHz), it would still win a match against any player in the world, even Anand, but I just don't see any faint possibility of it having made such an incredible jump as to be in the same league as Hiarcs, Junior, etc., let alone Rybka.  We saw what was most likely a slightly earlier version compete over the summer--it was no match for the second-tier programs (i.e. those below Rybka), all of which I'm sure have improved since that time.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-10-14 03:54
I think that Rybka is proof that such jumps are possible.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-14 04:07
No, neither Rybka nor any other chess program has shown the type of jump necessary to compete at that level.  The level at which these top-tier programs under Rybka will be competing will be around 2950-3000 equated to the CEGT list.  The current level for The King on that list is around 2700; furthermore, we have seen in recent tournaments that The King had shown no noticeable improvement from this.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-10-20 19:41

> No, neither Rybka nor any other chess program has shown the type of jump necessary to compete at that level.

I was talking about the jump from Rybka 1.5.32 to Rybka 1.0 Beta:

Rybka 1.5.32                      2123

RYBKA 1.5.32                      1852
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-20 19:54
These ratings are rubbish.  Fritz 5.32 at 2172, but Comet B68 at 2303, and Fritz 8 at 2619?!  The actual rating difference between Fritz 8 and Fritz 5.32 is not more than 200 points.  Ktulu 5.1 at 2171, but List 5.12 at 2299 and List 5.04 (which was of roughly the same strength as List 5.12) at 2521?! 

These ratings have no correlation between number and strength of chess engine.  The distribution is entirely random.
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2007-10-20 20:08

Zappa 1.0 (CEGT 2574) was released about a year after that, so Rybka must have been pretty strong already in 2004.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-20 20:54
That's a good link--it shows that Anthony wasn't very confident that Zappa's strength at the time was high enough to give good games for Rybka, so one could figure that he thought Rybka's rating was at least 100 points higher than Zappa, probably more, in 2004.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2007-10-20 20:36
These were the only lists that I could find about a Pre-Rybka-Beta Rybka, I still am interested in knowing the real jump in strength between those versions.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-10-27 05:33 Edited 2007-10-27 05:42
These rating may be rubbish but it is a fact that rybka made a big jump from that rybka to rybka beta.

Results of engines were no rubbish and rybka was only an amateur engine at that time and lost against many amateur programs.
People who think that it is impossible to make a big jump talk nonsense.

link to results of rybka at that time
Rybka got place 23

You can see that rybka lost against

Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-27 15:06
This rating list is also rubbish (though not as much as the other ones)--first, was that even the same Rybka as developed by Vas?  Also, the 2200 compared with other programs for Naum 1.0 is not realistic--Naum didn't become half-decent, I think, until around 1.4 or 1.5--it certainly wasn't on top of the pack.  And Chess System Tal being below Alarm?  No....

Nonetheless, I don't dispute that Rybka made a big jump to go to Rybka beta--but those sorts of jumps tend to happen when doing from an alpha engine to a beta engine--but not as much afterward, and Rybka has the biggest ones per unit time.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [us] Date 2007-10-29 02:35
The first Rybka (which was private of course) was around 1800. In the first year or two, you make massive jumps just implementing known computer chess things and fixing bugs. After that, progress is slower but still fairly steady.

Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-10-29 03:50
Okay, thank you for clarifying that for us.  Of course, in the original argument a bit farther up in the thread, I was referring to a program that has already been in development for awhile.  1800 does seem like a low start for someone of your stature--were you not really serious in the concept of a chess engine for awhile?

In spite of this, I still think that all of the rating lists we've seen so far that include that version of Rybka have a decent percentage of the engines seriously misrated relative to each other.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [us] Date 2007-11-01 16:38
Ok, the 1800 Rybka took about a week to put together. That's really quite easy.

Anyway, like everything else, computer chess takes time.

Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-11-01 21:43
... computer chess takes time.
I´m interested in the follwing scenario: All your data about Rybka are lost (source code, documentation, etc.) :-( and you have to rewrite Rybka with your experience about Rybka. Which time you would need to put her on the last playing level (Rybka 2.3.2a)? Three months or six months or one year or even more? In this scenario, Larry hasn´t lost his data (eval table) and has time for testing.
Last question: Will there be something quite different you will do on purpose?
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