![[gb]](/mwf/v12/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Has anyone else noticed how well C0.8 plays the early part of the game yet does less well during the middle part? I have only looked at a few openings {mainly classical, e.g., Scotch} nonetheless this is how it seems to me - anyone else have any experiences similar to this?
> Has anyone else noticed how well C0.8 plays the early part of the game
I've noticed. I don't think it's as good as Komodo in the opening stages but it's still better than a lot of commercial engines. Komodo really shines early, so much so that it outperforms it's 40/4 and 40/40 rating when running ultra-fast games (e.g. 10 seconds + 100ms per move)
![[il]](/mwf/v12/flags/il.png "Israel")
I do not understand why do you think that being better in the opening help in ultra fast games.
I think that it is the opposite and the opening is relatively unimportant in very fast games and tactics is more important in ultra fast games and if you miss simple tactics getting a better position in the opening is not going to help you.
I think that it is the opposite and the opening is relatively unimportant in very fast games and tactics is more important in ultra fast games and if you miss simple tactics getting a better position in the opening is not going to help you.
![[jo]](/mwf/v12/flags/jo.png "Jordan")
totally agreed here 
Dr.D
Dr.D
> I do not understand why do you think that being better in the opening help in ultra fast games.
> I think that it is the opposite and the opening is relatively unimportant in very fast games and tactics is more important in ultra fast games and if you miss simple tactics getting a better position in the opening is not going to help you.
I don't know if it's important or not, I only know that Komodo outperformed expectations in ultra-fast games. To be honest, I don't have enough experience with ultra-fast games to even have an informed opinion. I can't really explain why some engines outperform and others underperform but I definitely don't really think of Komodo as a tactical engine so I was assuming it was the opening strength that was helping Komodo do well in ultra-fast conditions. Maybe it's something else entirely -- maybe some engines just don't do well at that speed, period. I'd definitely like to hear more from you and the Dr. about why that is since I'm guessing you both have far more experience than I do and can probably shed light on the subject.
Also, if you can provide a list of engines that are good to use with ultra-fast time controls that would be great. It seems like a good stable of engines that are reliable in that environment is key to getting meaningful results.
I think that a good time management is important for ultra fast time control so maybe komodo simply has better time management for ultra fast time control.
Another possible reason may be that other programs need to spend more time on some initializations before every search that komodo does not need to do when 0.01 second for initialization is not important at long time control but important for ultra fast time control.
Another possible reason may be that other programs need to spend more time on some initializations before every search that komodo does not need to do when 0.01 second for initialization is not important at long time control but important for ultra fast time control.
![[nz]](/mwf/v12/flags/nz.png "New Zealand")
> Has anyone else noticed how well C0.8 plays the early part of the game yet does less well during the middle part? I have only looked at a few openings {mainly classical, e.g., Scotch} nonetheless this is how it seems to me - anyone else have any experiences similar to this?
Critter seems to do okay to me.
Cheers,
Graham.
![[mx]](/mwf/v12/flags/mx.png "Mexico")
If whatever, I'd say Critter plays so good the opening that compared to that it doesn't play the middle game as good. But it doesn't play bad the middle game.
![[us]](/mwf/v12/flags/us.png "United States")
I like its endgame. Middle and opening still need work to get to the highest levels. But it is a new engine, doubtless improvements are coming. I predict good things as most of the engines never reach the high levels because of endgame weakness. Critter already has a nice endgame, I suspect fairy conventional things can be done to improve the middlegame. When they are, it can move up to 2-4 place from 6-8 which is actually a sizable jump.
If Critter plays badly the opening I don't want to see it fixed.
I'll have to have a better look. The things use book so much, I don't see them too much on their own. I have seen some shaky middlegames. And late opening does not always prepare itself for the right ideas. I just let it sit on the start. There are positive signs but 1.Nf3 above 1.d4 looks fishy. It seems to truncate lines fairly short making them hard to use for analysis. Ok, it corrected the 1.d4 but 1.e3 is still above 1.d4. Still lots of engines say this and 1.e3 is probably much better than its reputation. But even its greatest advocate...me...has to confess that 1.d4 is almost certainly better. I have played about 30,000 bullet games with it ;) There are some nice traps if people use their normal 1.e4 reply repertoire.
Saying Depth=24 (completed 23)
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.17): 1.e4 e6
2. = (0.12): 1.e3 Nf6
3. = (0.09): 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 c5 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.0-0 Nc6 10.a3 Be6 11.b4 Bd6 12.Nb5 Ne5 13.Bb2
4. = (0.08): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.d4 d5 4.e3 c5
5. = (-0.03): 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qd3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 Ne4 7.Qd3 0-0 8.Bf4 Nc6 9.e3 f6 10.Nd2 e5 11.Nxe4 exf4 12.Nc5 Re8 13.0-0-0 fxe3 14.fxe3
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
LOL Now 1.e3 is on top:
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.12): 1.e3 Nf6
2. = (0.11): 1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5
3. = (0.09): 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 c5 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.0-0 Nc6 10.a3 Be6 11.b4 Bd6 12.Nb5 Ne5 13.Bb2
4. = (0.08): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.d4 d5 4.e3 c5
5. = (-0.03): 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qd3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 Ne4 7.Qd3 0-0 8.Bf4 Nc6 9.e3 f6 10.Nd2 e5 11.Nxe4 exf4 12.Nc5 Re8 13.0-0-0 fxe3 14.fxe3
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
Things look a little better at Depth=25 (24 complete).
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.16): 1.d4 d5
2. = (0.15): 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4
3. = (0.11): 1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5
4. = (0.11): 1.e3 e6 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 Be7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bd3 d5 6.cxd5 exd5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.Nc3 a6 9.a3 Qd6 10.Qb3 h6 11.h3 Re8
5. = (0.00): 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.Nf3 e6 5.e4 h6 6.Bxf6 Nxf6 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Ne4 f5 9.Ne5 Bb4+ 10.Nd2 0-0 11.h4 Bd6 12.Ndc4 Bb4+
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
Still, 1.g3 should be above 1.Nc3, I think. And 1.e4 is probably better than 1.Nf3 but there is room to quibble. And there is the 1.e3 being equivalent to 1.e4. Almost no engines like 1.c4 but I have not seen it much at the higher levels lately anyway. It is hard to say where it should rank.
Saying Depth=24 (completed 23)
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.17): 1.e4 e6
2. = (0.12): 1.e3 Nf6
3. = (0.09): 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 c5 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.0-0 Nc6 10.a3 Be6 11.b4 Bd6 12.Nb5 Ne5 13.Bb2
4. = (0.08): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.d4 d5 4.e3 c5
5. = (-0.03): 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qd3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 Ne4 7.Qd3 0-0 8.Bf4 Nc6 9.e3 f6 10.Nd2 e5 11.Nxe4 exf4 12.Nc5 Re8 13.0-0-0 fxe3 14.fxe3
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
LOL Now 1.e3 is on top:
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.12): 1.e3 Nf6
2. = (0.11): 1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5
3. = (0.09): 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 c5 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.0-0 Nc6 10.a3 Be6 11.b4 Bd6 12.Nb5 Ne5 13.Bb2
4. = (0.08): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.d4 d5 4.e3 c5
5. = (-0.03): 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qd3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 Ne4 7.Qd3 0-0 8.Bf4 Nc6 9.e3 f6 10.Nd2 e5 11.Nxe4 exf4 12.Nc5 Re8 13.0-0-0 fxe3 14.fxe3
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
Things look a little better at Depth=25 (24 complete).
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.16): 1.d4 d5
2. = (0.15): 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4
3. = (0.11): 1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5
4. = (0.11): 1.e3 e6 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 Be7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bd3 d5 6.cxd5 exd5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.Nc3 a6 9.a3 Qd6 10.Qb3 h6 11.h3 Re8
5. = (0.00): 1.Nc3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.Nf3 e6 5.e4 h6 6.Bxf6 Nxf6 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Ne4 f5 9.Ne5 Bb4+ 10.Nd2 0-0 11.h4 Bd6 12.Ndc4 Bb4+
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
Still, 1.g3 should be above 1.Nc3, I think. And 1.e4 is probably better than 1.Nf3 but there is room to quibble. And there is the 1.e3 being equivalent to 1.e4. Almost no engines like 1.c4 but I have not seen it much at the higher levels lately anyway. It is hard to say where it should rank.
This is what it says after an hour: (first line is Depth 26 the rest 25)
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.17): 1.d4 d5
2. = (0.14): 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3
3. = (0.11): 1.e3 e6 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Bd6 5.Bd3
4. = (0.10): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4
5. = (-0.03): 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
New game - Critter 0.80 64-bit, Blitz:1'
Analysis by Critter 0.80 64-bit:
1. = (0.17): 1.d4 d5
2. = (0.14): 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3
3. = (0.11): 1.e3 e6 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Bd6 5.Bd3
4. = (0.10): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4
5. = (-0.03): 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4
(Octospasmic, 10.10.2010)
Interesting results. I don't recall ever seeing 1.e3 from an engine. I think the first move is primarily a question of style rather than strength. I like to see an emphatic 1.e4.
StockFish usually has it high on the list. You never see the engines play 1.e3 as they usually use book.
It could play 1.f3 on the opening position, I'd be more interested in how it performs on the complex opening positions that matter on correspondence games, where it continuously suggests impressive plans I wouldn't have found otherwise.
I use it interactively and rarely beyond depth 20, but I think its highest value is its originality (and I only wish it stuck with 1.e3 on the opening position, not because it's the best move, but as proof that it thinks very differently than all other engines, even more so than Hiarcs).
I use it interactively and rarely beyond depth 20, but I think its highest value is its originality (and I only wish it stuck with 1.e3 on the opening position, not because it's the best move, but as proof that it thinks very differently than all other engines, even more so than Hiarcs).
I'm not holding my breath waiting for an engine that opens 1.b3.
I'll give you one
So here it is, though it's definitively not what you had in mind, I think it's as close as you'll get :
ProDeo 1.6 B3 - Impractical Engine:
by Ed Schröder
5.00 0:00 0.00 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nf3 (4.552) 4552
5.00 0:00 0.00 1.e4 (5.518) 5518
5.00 0:00 +0.29 1.e4 Nf6 2.Bc4 Nxe4 3.Bxf7+ Kxf7 4.Qf3+ Nf6 (6.911) 6911
6.00 0:00 +0.78 1.e4 Nh6 2.Bc4 f6 3.d4 f5 (27.246) 27246
7.00 0:00 +0.50 1.e4 e6 2.Bb5 Bc5 3.Bxd7+ Nxd7 4.f4 Bxg1 5.Rxg1 (64.125) 64125
7.00 0:00 +0.59 1.e3 e6 2.Bb5 Bb4 3.Bxd7+ Nxd7 4.Nc3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 (144.561) 144561
8.00 0:00 +0.59 1.e3 e6 2.Bb5 Bb4 3.Bxd7+ Nxd7 4.Nc3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 (147.809) 147809
9.00 0:00 +0.40 1.e3 e6 2.Bd3 Bc5 3.Bxh7 Rxh7 4.Nf3 Rxh2 5.Nxh2 Bxe3 6.dxe3 (295.100) 295100
10.00 0:01 +0.14 1.e3 e6 2.Bd3 h6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.d4 Bxd4 5.exd4 Qh4 6.Bxh6 Qe4+ 7.Kf1 Nxh6 (2.023.645) 2023
10.09 0:02 +0.16 1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 Nf6 3.e3 Bb4 4.Bc4 Bxd2+ 5.Nxd2 O-O 6.Bxe6 dxe6 (4.628.451) 2314
11.01 0:04 +0.17 1.b3 b6 2.Nf3 Bb7 3.Ng5 a5 4.Bb2 Bxg2 5.Bxg7 Bxh1 6.Bxh8 (7.361.100) 1840
12.01 0:12 +0.19 1.b3 b6 2.e3 Bb7 3.Bb2 (21.107.145) 1758
13.01 0:43 +0.41 1.b3 b6 2.e3 Bb7 3.Bb2 (73.910.380) 1718
14.01 2:26 +0.55 1.b3 d5 2.e3 Bf5 3.Bb5+ (259.188.506) 1775
15.01 7:48 +0.69 1.b3 d5 2.e3 Bf5 3.Bb2 Bxc2 4.Qxc2 g6 5.Nc3 Bh6 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.Qxc7 (842.075.401) 1799
16.01 16:34 +0.33 1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 b6 3.e3 Bb7 4.Nf3 Nf6 (1.822.201.421) 1833
best move: b2-b3 time: 47:12.765 min n/s: 1.833.200 nodes: 1.822.201.421
Making a personality that likes 1.b3 was easy (it took me about 20 minutes) the hard part was making one that would pick b3 from the start (my first successful attempt would take minute and a half, I think 2 seconds and depth 10 is acceptable) and that would not switch back to 1.e3 (which requires precision, a pawn value of 293 or 295 would not work).
I started from the Novice personality that already hates d4, e4, and friends, made it wish to get rid of its Bishops, and to destroy the King's potential shelter, so b3, Bg2, Bxg7 was the original plan, and then I tweaked from there. Which causes the personality to play crappy, to attempt to alleviate it I included it in the opening part of the DrunkenMaster suite I had planned to do since this post, that looked better in my imagination since SCORE DOWN/SCORE UP don't work, and the "opening" lasts too long, jumping from it to the early endgame. But I'll blame Ed for that. DrunkenMaster will still beat unsuspecting players of about my strength (after it wakes up).
I know installing ProDeo personalities is a 7 steps hassle that includes editing text files, so I've attached a DrunkenMaster package ready to install, just unzip it and install the rebeluci.exe file as UCI engine, it'll now play 1.b3, afterwards you can use other personalities by choosing them on the dropdown box of the options.
Anyway, even if no one ends using this I've enjoyed the challenge
:rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq -
ProDeo 1.6 B3 - Impractical Engine:
by Ed Schröder
5.00 0:00 0.00 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nf3 (4.552) 4552
5.00 0:00 0.00 1.e4 (5.518) 5518
5.00 0:00 +0.29 1.e4 Nf6 2.Bc4 Nxe4 3.Bxf7+ Kxf7 4.Qf3+ Nf6 (6.911) 6911
6.00 0:00 +0.78 1.e4 Nh6 2.Bc4 f6 3.d4 f5 (27.246) 27246
7.00 0:00 +0.50 1.e4 e6 2.Bb5 Bc5 3.Bxd7+ Nxd7 4.f4 Bxg1 5.Rxg1 (64.125) 64125
7.00 0:00 +0.59 1.e3 e6 2.Bb5 Bb4 3.Bxd7+ Nxd7 4.Nc3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 (144.561) 144561
8.00 0:00 +0.59 1.e3 e6 2.Bb5 Bb4 3.Bxd7+ Nxd7 4.Nc3 Bxc3 5.dxc3 (147.809) 147809
9.00 0:00 +0.40 1.e3 e6 2.Bd3 Bc5 3.Bxh7 Rxh7 4.Nf3 Rxh2 5.Nxh2 Bxe3 6.dxe3 (295.100) 295100
10.00 0:01 +0.14 1.e3 e6 2.Bd3 h6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.d4 Bxd4 5.exd4 Qh4 6.Bxh6 Qe4+ 7.Kf1 Nxh6 (2.023.645) 2023
10.09 0:02 +0.16 1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 Nf6 3.e3 Bb4 4.Bc4 Bxd2+ 5.Nxd2 O-O 6.Bxe6 dxe6 (4.628.451) 2314
11.01 0:04 +0.17 1.b3 b6 2.Nf3 Bb7 3.Ng5 a5 4.Bb2 Bxg2 5.Bxg7 Bxh1 6.Bxh8 (7.361.100) 1840
12.01 0:12 +0.19 1.b3 b6 2.e3 Bb7 3.Bb2 (21.107.145) 1758
13.01 0:43 +0.41 1.b3 b6 2.e3 Bb7 3.Bb2 (73.910.380) 1718
14.01 2:26 +0.55 1.b3 d5 2.e3 Bf5 3.Bb5+ (259.188.506) 1775
15.01 7:48 +0.69 1.b3 d5 2.e3 Bf5 3.Bb2 Bxc2 4.Qxc2 g6 5.Nc3 Bh6 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.Qxc7 (842.075.401) 1799
16.01 16:34 +0.33 1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 b6 3.e3 Bb7 4.Nf3 Nf6 (1.822.201.421) 1833
best move: b2-b3 time: 47:12.765 min n/s: 1.833.200 nodes: 1.822.201.421
Making a personality that likes 1.b3 was easy (it took me about 20 minutes) the hard part was making one that would pick b3 from the start (my first successful attempt would take minute and a half, I think 2 seconds and depth 10 is acceptable) and that would not switch back to 1.e3 (which requires precision, a pawn value of 293 or 295 would not work).
I started from the Novice personality that already hates d4, e4, and friends, made it wish to get rid of its Bishops, and to destroy the King's potential shelter, so b3, Bg2, Bxg7 was the original plan, and then I tweaked from there. Which causes the personality to play crappy
, to attempt to alleviate it I included it in the opening part of the DrunkenMaster suite I had planned to do since this post, that looked better in my imagination since SCORE DOWN/SCORE UP don't work, and the "opening" lasts too long, jumping from it to the early endgame. But I'll blame Ed for that. DrunkenMaster will still beat unsuspecting players of about my strength (after it wakes up).I know installing ProDeo personalities is a 7 steps hassle that includes editing text files, so I've attached a DrunkenMaster package ready to install, just unzip it and install the rebeluci.exe file as UCI engine, it'll now play 1.b3, afterwards you can use other personalities by choosing them on the dropdown box of the options.
Anyway, even if no one ends using this I've enjoyed the challenge
Attachment: ProDeo16DM.zip (517k)
LOL!!!
I have not played many players that play 1.b3, but I have played several that play 1.b4. Any 1.b4 engines? :)
I do manage to get in trouble against this opening...grumble...grumble. Anyone know a good strategy against the Orangutan? My current strategy is something involving an f6 push to have the bishop biting on granite.
I do manage to get in trouble against this opening...grumble...grumble. Anyone know a good strategy against the Orangutan? My current strategy is something involving an f6 push to have the bishop biting on granite.
> Any 1.b4 engines? :)
I recall making ProDeo play b4 was easier than making it playing b3, but I managed to mock the "Q3 - Tactical engine" in the process, I've got nothing for B4 ;o
However, besides the SAG (warning, potentially offensive link) these don't have any use whatsoever, since it'll probably think that after Bb2 you'd play g6 and let the Bishop capture the Rook at h8, or some other craziness. I'd guess what you'd like is an engine that plays 1.b4 for a good reason.
I found interesting that making a personality play 1.g3 may be impossible, since Pro Deo doesn't have a "Queen Safety" parameter.
Anyway, against the Orangutan I just develop normally with e5 and d5, then following the Bishop capture on e5 with Nc6 or Bxb4 etc., but I face it very rarely.
Thanks...I probably try too hard to refute it.
![[za]](/mwf/v12/flags/za.png "South Africa")
Thanks Vytron. I will try to look for that Personality that you once created for Priyanvada and play against it. I hope I will beat it
The package above includes it
> The package above includes it
Really? Thanks, you saved some time to do a search. I will check it out tonight when I get home
Yup, just, after installing Rebeluci, Go to engine's options and set the personality to "Xtreme", that was the one, later on I made "Cake" for her birthday, a little harder one for when you're tired of beating Xtreme out
If Rebeluci.exe is the engine, then what is Prodeo.exe?
Pro Deo is a Winboard engine, Rebeluci is the UCI adapter, that allows one to do neat tricks like changing the personality in engine options, otherwise you'd need to tell the GUI to send a command like "prodeo.exe w4 ProDeo.eng" (and I don't even know what command to send to turn off the internal book), and some GUIs don't even have a way to send such commands. So just load Rebeluci, it's the simple way.
Thanx
Powered by mwForum 2.27.4 © 1999-2012 Markus Wichitill