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- - By Milton (***) [us] Date 2010-09-03 02:41
For what it's worth, I really miss the old days when Vas and Larry posted more often, and gave updates about the progress of Rybka.  I really enjoyed those posts.  As it is today, I am only motivated to visit the forum about once a week to see if Rybka 4.1 has been released.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-03 03:12
yes, at least Vas should post baby pictures or something :) instead: nothing...
Parent - - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2010-09-03 05:46
I also feel the 'users' of this forum should be given an opportunity to state how they would like the forum to be moderated, i.e., a form of charter for users and moderators to follow.  There clearly is something in existence but do the majority of users know what this look like and indeed more importantly, agree with the rules laid down.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-04 17:44

> There clearly is something in existence


This is the only thing in existence:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=14541
Parent - - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2010-09-05 07:14
Thanks for pointing the link out - are you a moderator?  Assuming you are then just for starters could you consider the following:
- make the link to these rules obvious from the main page
- remove generic statements like 'piracy websites' - provide a list of websites that one shouldn't link to
- remove generic statements like 'clone talk' - provide a list of engine names/authors that are banned from discussion on this forum.
Parent - - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2010-09-05 11:23

> remove generic statements like 'piracy websites' - provide a list of websites that one shouldn't link to


Well, this wouldn't exactly work as intended...  :wink:
Parent - - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2010-09-05 13:02
It wouldn't remove piracy websites no; but then nothing we do on this forum would.  I guess the same is true for people who want to cheat and take copies of other programmes, rename them and call them their own.  Nonetheless, it would make it clear though wouldn't it!  Currently the vagueness in the statements {and if it wasn't for Vytron, I wouldn't have found these details} it feels like walking on broken glass, not knowing where to place your feet through fear of cutting yourself.
Parent - By Mark (****) [us] Date 2010-09-05 13:33
I do agree with you.  I just thought it was kind of humorous suggesting that the moderators list the piracy websites...
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2010-09-05 15:01
so links to all the known pirate websites should be provided as a Sticky in the rules?!
The same goes for a list of pirate engines?! Why should the forum moderators help people find them.

It would be far easier to provide a list of sites and engines that are allowed but this is not practical either. If you have any doubts ask a moderator.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-05 15:04
I think my "rules" post had a good solution - look at ccrl and cegt, look at the program's website and use your brain :)

Recognizing clones is not that difficult.

Always asking a moderator is also a bit unpractical :)
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2010-09-05 15:07
Razor is just annoyed as he got booted from Playchess yesterday for using a clone :-) Presuming of course he is the same guy with the Playchess nick R a z o r
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-05 15:43
Playchess has really gone downhill over the last five years. I think you did him a favor!
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2010-09-05 15:44
I try :)
Parent - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2010-09-05 17:24
Not me - must be a clone - please read this quickly as I have used a word I don't think I should have used - hard to know these days unless you have a brain.
Parent - - By nebulus (****) [no] Date 2010-09-05 15:28

> Recognizing clones is not that difficult.


With all due respect, it's far more difficult than you think. First, you have to establish a consensus on what the terms actually mean. Then you have to collect and evaluate the evidences that would show the engine in question does in fact fall under the given category. This is not an easy task.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-05 15:49
That's why I recommend the easy way - look at cegt and ccrl.
Parent - - By nebulus (****) [no] Date 2010-09-05 16:09
Fair enough, but these lists do not necessary include all the engines that can be classified as okay. All I'm trying to say is there's no easy way.

Let's take a look at Crab. Is it a clone or a derivative? The first version had only 1 line change from Stockfish and could easily be considered as a clone. Now, even if it can be called a clone, is it okay to discuss it? All the credits were given, the engine was released under the GPL as it was required. It is a legal derivative, though the changes were minimal, nevertheless is okay engine. Complicated, don't you think?
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-05 17:09
Well, in this case there's no reason to discuss that engine and the "wrong" assumption that it's a clone that isn't allowed to be discussed here not really doing any damage.

So the simple rule may be wrong in single cases, but after all it's a good way to get a quick answer.
Parent - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2010-09-05 17:30
Absence does not mean clone neither does inclusion mean that the programmer hasn't copied from other engines.

I forgive your clumsy attempt at humour, placing a :) only just {in my view} lets you escape the clutches of the forum first rule - not by much though!
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-05 15:56
Right now clone means "any very strong engine from a non-established author". Just as all new engines five years ago had similarities to fruit, all new engines today will have similarities to the clones and/or to stockfish, and will be banned by the elites. Established engines will also become more similar to the leading open source engines, just as they did five years ago. Eventually, the futility of this exercise will become obvious to all, and we will move on.

With respect to Rybka, if Vas decides to compete, his engine will remain at the top. If not, it won't. Seems more likely at this point that he may be close to retirement.

There is really nothing new here...
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-05 17:13
There's a difference, you also know that. Those clones don't hide their origin and make fun out of it, by using ridiculous names for the authors and using fish graphics and so on. Simultaneously they say "oh, btw., it's no clone", what some naive people use as "look, they say it's no clone".

We already had the discussions, so this won't lead to any result as we have seen, but I just wanted to point that out.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-09-05 20:15
In any field, people will reverse engineer the best products and generate derivative works. In this sense, there are no original chess engines, only some engines which have some new features, and some that don't. After fruit came out, all succeeding top engines, including Rybka, used ideas from it. Now that Rybka has been reverse engineered, all succeeding top engines will use its ideas. This will be true regardless of whether the people who put out the engine don't hide their origin and make fun out of it, by using ridiculous names for the authors and using fish graphics and so on. Simultaneously they say "oh, btw., it's no clone", what some naive people use as "look, they say it's no clone".

As with any other product, the only way to combat this is with continuous product improvement. Without this, someone in the community will pick up the reverse engineering work, improve it, and come out with a product that is more useful than the original. In my opinion, this has already happened in the case of Rybka and its use for analysis, where other engines support basic functionality like MPV and constrained branching factors that Rybka lacks.
Parent - By Razor (****) [gb] Date 2010-09-05 20:30
I agree with your very elegantly stated view.
Parent - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2010-09-07 06:49
+1 but haven't we already discussed this over and over again?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-05 19:56

> are you a moderator?


Used to be, hated the policy and resigned my position, kept the powers for a while (and did work current moderation is not willing to do, such as Branch-Moving threads or title renaming at corr chess forum), but eventually my behavior was considered unacceptable (I was behaving like a normal member) and I was kicked out.

I think this board was great to bring together members of similar hobbies and interests, but has no longer that usefulness, I wonder how the forum activity would look like (compared to the good old times) if we ignored the activity of the Corr Chess subforum.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (****) [us] Date 2010-09-05 20:46
Who are the moderators now? Just Felix and Dadi?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-05 21:03
CumnorChessClub, exigentsky, Felix Kling, Henrik Dinesen, SR and Vasik Rajlich.

Dadi is the Administrator, he doesn't do any moderator Job (he creates new subforums, bans members, pays for the rybkaforum.net domain, I think, etc.)
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-05 21:37
Dadi "does" some moderation work, but you are right that most of the things he's doing are done by request.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-05 21:47
I mean that he usually does things that moderators can't do.
Parent - - By Labyrinth (****) [us] Date 2010-09-06 13:15
I strongly suspect that felix does 99.999% of the moderation.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-06 15:31
That's not correct :) But I agree that I do a big part.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-09-06 01:50
btw., why try to keep the moderators work minimal, so I think having not that many moderators is ok. Of course there are some things we don't like to see, but after all everything's fine if you look at the whole picture. Not much to do for the moderation.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-09-06 15:14

> why try to keep the moderators work minimal,


That's very funny considering members complain about the high level of censorship!
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Feedback About The Forum

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