Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Is Rybka 4 the best chess program in the world?
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Hi,
Sorry to be asking this because I'm not really into chess. However, this is my dad's passion and since Father's day is coming up, I want to buy him the best chess software there is.
In this regard, can you help me out. I've been doing some research in google and some say that the best is Deep Sjeng, some say its HIARCS, Shredder, Fritz12 while others say it's Rybka. I don't know who to believe anymore.
Can you guys please point me to the right direction. How can one know if this is the best chess program? Is there any official tournament between chess programs or a website that ranks them? I want to print the website
that shows the program as the #1 chess program in the world and attach it to the DVD chess program i'm going to give my dad on Father's day.
Thanks in advance.
-joms
Sorry to be asking this because I'm not really into chess. However, this is my dad's passion and since Father's day is coming up, I want to buy him the best chess software there is.
In this regard, can you help me out. I've been doing some research in google and some say that the best is Deep Sjeng, some say its HIARCS, Shredder, Fritz12 while others say it's Rybka. I don't know who to believe anymore.
Can you guys please point me to the right direction. How can one know if this is the best chess program? Is there any official tournament between chess programs or a website that ranks them? I want to print the website
that shows the program as the #1 chess program in the world and attach it to the DVD chess program i'm going to give my dad on Father's day.
Thanks in advance.
-joms
The short answer is: Yes, pretty much.
Here is a website where you can print the list:
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_mp/rangliste.html
Here is a website where you can print the list:
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_mp/rangliste.html
CCRL Rating List
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/
CEGT
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20All%20Versions/rangliste.html
SSDF
http://ssdf.bosjo.net/list.htm (hasn't been updated with Rybka 4 yet, but as you can see, Rybka 3 is at the top)
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/
CEGT
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20All%20Versions/rangliste.html
SSDF
http://ssdf.bosjo.net/list.htm (hasn't been updated with Rybka 4 yet, but as you can see, Rybka 3 is at the top)
Yes Rybka 4 is the best chess program in the world.
I can imagine if you are new to the world of computer chess it would be quite confusing as to which program is the strongest :)
it confuses me sometimes in reference to time control and hardware :)
it confuses me sometimes in reference to time control and hardware :)
Some 12 year old computer chess whiz is going to find the absolute parameters against five of the toughest chess engines out there and get entrepreneurial.
What about the features? Is your daddy a strong amateur, if so, how strong? Are you looking for a complete chess package, that is, GUI + engine? How about chess tutorials with it?
IMHO Chessmaster would be the best program for an amateur because of the features it offers, a strong engine with different levels and chess video tutorials to help an amateur to improve the game. Now, if you are a serious chess amateur with aspiration of becoming a very strong chess master, then Rybka would be one of the choices among other chess engines. Please note that there are free non commercial chess engines which are very close to Rybka chess strength, such as Stockfish 1.7.1. Therefore, you probably would do best to spend your money with a good chess tutorial program for your father and get the free non commercial chess engine.
IMHO Chessmaster would be the best program for an amateur because of the features it offers, a strong engine with different levels and chess video tutorials to help an amateur to improve the game. Now, if you are a serious chess amateur with aspiration of becoming a very strong chess master, then Rybka would be one of the choices among other chess engines. Please note that there are free non commercial chess engines which are very close to Rybka chess strength, such as Stockfish 1.7.1. Therefore, you probably would do best to spend your money with a good chess tutorial program for your father and get the free non commercial chess engine.
I think the replies by now will have convicned you that Rybka is the strongest chess playing software in the world.
Just a word of warning if you are about to buy Rybka for him. If you buy it from the Rybka site in the UCI version he will not be able to run it without some extra software as the UCI version just does the chess "thinking" stuff without any user interface or for that matter opening book.
You can get freeware for the user interface but as it is a present I would suggest you buy a version that comes with a user interface (assuming it fits your budget).
The main options are Rybka+Aquarium from http://chessok.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_1
and Rybka+Fritz style interface from http://www.chessbase.com/shop/productlist.asp?product=cp&subd=&user=&coin=
Note also that there are:
- normal single processor versions which will only ever run one processor core,
- and "Deep" versions that will run on single core PCs but will take advantage of multiple processors if you have a dual or quad core PC.
Its just a cost difference and obviously the Deep versions play better if you have an appropriate PC.
Just a word of warning if you are about to buy Rybka for him. If you buy it from the Rybka site in the UCI version he will not be able to run it without some extra software as the UCI version just does the chess "thinking" stuff without any user interface or for that matter opening book.
You can get freeware for the user interface but as it is a present I would suggest you buy a version that comes with a user interface (assuming it fits your budget).
The main options are Rybka+Aquarium from http://chessok.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_1
and Rybka+Fritz style interface from http://www.chessbase.com/shop/productlist.asp?product=cp&subd=&user=&coin=
Note also that there are:
- normal single processor versions which will only ever run one processor core,
- and "Deep" versions that will run on single core PCs but will take advantage of multiple processors if you have a dual or quad core PC.
Its just a cost difference and obviously the Deep versions play better if you have an appropriate PC.
Rybka is the indubitable, archetypical model of the greatest single achievement witnessed in computer chess programming - the keystone.
Ka-pow!
Atypical rating lists:
http://www.tomteipel.de/info-1.html - #1 (Deep Rybka 4 x64 2981)
http://www.inwoba.de/bayeselo.html - #1 (Deep Rybka 4 2949)
http://www.compchess.de/html/elostat.html - #1 (Rybka 4.0 x64 1CPU 2980)
http://sedatchess.110mb.com/index.php?p=1_58 - #1 (Deep Rybka 4 x64 3273)
No need to mention CCRL or CEGT - their prominence as testers is self-evident.
Need I say more?
Ka-pow!
Atypical rating lists:
http://www.tomteipel.de/info-1.html - #1 (Deep Rybka 4 x64 2981)
http://www.inwoba.de/bayeselo.html - #1 (Deep Rybka 4 2949)
http://www.compchess.de/html/elostat.html - #1 (Rybka 4.0 x64 1CPU 2980)
http://sedatchess.110mb.com/index.php?p=1_58 - #1 (Deep Rybka 4 x64 3273)
No need to mention CCRL or CEGT - their prominence as testers is self-evident.
Need I say more?
>> No need to mention CCRL or CEGT - there prominence as testers is self-evident.
Can you elaborate?
they are the biggest and most professional rating lists?
Felix,
Is there any meaningful distinction between Deep Rybka SSE42 x-64, Deep Rybka 4 x-64 and Rybka 4 x-64?
Is there any meaningful distinction between Deep Rybka SSE42 x-64, Deep Rybka 4 x-64 and Rybka 4 x-64?
Rybka 4 x-64 is hardcoded to use one core.
Thanks. How about the distinction between Deep Rybka SSE42 x-64, and Deep Rybka 4 x-64? I have a quad core 64 bit.
SSE42 takes advantage of the CPU that supports it (gives 5% speed up).
Yes, their* notability makes them known throughout the chess community, e.g., website hits.
I still find odd you excluded them from your list. Being the best should make you be included at the top of the references, not excluded from them.
I guess the "no need to mention" comment comes from the fact that those lists were mentioned above. It's kind of an idiom. That's how I understand it at least :)
Okay, I just hope to never become prominent enough that people don't mention me :)
It's not an idiom. It's literal.
The two gentlemen before me, as you stated, did the honors.
Thus, there is no need for redundancy. Indeed so, there's no need to shame the names that brought you guys the fame to your claims.
The two gentlemen before me, as you stated, did the honors.
Thus, there is no need for redundancy. Indeed so, there's no need to shame the names that brought you guys the fame to your claims.
Depending on your budget, the best thing might simply be to get the Chessbase version as it would give him online access to play against other chess players. It is hard to believe but many still don't realize that they can get online and play other people of varying strength on the internet. I guess you could also check out ICC or FICS of which the latter is free, but really the Playchess server IMHO is the most robust and prettiest interface which also works seemlessly with the CB version of the engine. The Yahoo chess site is infested with computer cheaters so he will simply get frustrated there. If he is into chess he will be able to not only play online but also watch chess matches by top GM's that are taking place all over the world. You really don't need the very top of the line Deep Rybka 4 to analyze a human's moves and you can download for free on this website Rybka 2.3.2a, an engine that would probably crush Kasparov quite handily. But if you must have the very latest then of course DR 4 is #1. The only problem then is that you have to expect that free time of your dad is going to be cut dramatically .... but then come to think of it that might not be such a bad thing :)
yes rybka 4 is the no1 but without the clones, also stockfish 1.7.1 has the most interesting style and its free
so if u want style rather than hardcore elo mania,i rpefer stockfish 1.7.1 and komodo 1.2
so if u want style rather than hardcore elo mania,i rpefer stockfish 1.7.1 and komodo 1.2
For style I still like Komodo 1.0 better than 1.1 and 1.2.
what do you mean by 'chess program'? as someone said, do you have any idea how strong your dad is or what he would use the chess software for?
rybka 4 is the strongest chess -engine-, but if you dad is not serious about analyzing positions & games, it's very much a luxury & not a necessity. if he just wants to play it for kicks to say he got whupped by the strongest chess program, that's fine (though junior is more likely to make his head spin while he goes down in flames). and keep there are probably at least a half dozen free engines that would demolish any human & most of them provide pretty good to top notch analysis as well. if he's more into training or playing with the idea of competitive games, there may be better options.
rybka 4 is the strongest chess -engine-, but if you dad is not serious about analyzing positions & games, it's very much a luxury & not a necessity. if he just wants to play it for kicks to say he got whupped by the strongest chess program, that's fine (though junior is more likely to make his head spin while he goes down in flames). and keep there are probably at least a half dozen free engines that would demolish any human & most of them provide pretty good to top notch analysis as well. if he's more into training or playing with the idea of competitive games, there may be better options.
hello,
for a gift to your father, for a chess software, you can not consider only the chess engine ( like schredder, fritz, rybka, hiarcs, etc etc ) , but you need also to consider the GUI ( graphic interface) , like aquarium, chessbase, schredder...
every interface need some pratice, to master all the functions...
for the moment if your father has no chessprogram, you can choose GUI chessbase or aquarium on DVD very nice... schredder is only for download.
you can only consider chessmaster , the engine " the king" is not the best , but only GMI can win against it ... and the gui chessmaster is very nice for the beginner's chessplayer.
cordialement
thierry
for a gift to your father, for a chess software, you can not consider only the chess engine ( like schredder, fritz, rybka, hiarcs, etc etc ) , but you need also to consider the GUI ( graphic interface) , like aquarium, chessbase, schredder...
every interface need some pratice, to master all the functions...
for the moment if your father has no chessprogram, you can choose GUI chessbase or aquarium on DVD very nice... schredder is only for download.
you can only consider chessmaster , the engine " the king" is not the best , but only GMI can win against it ... and the gui chessmaster is very nice for the beginner's chessplayer.
cordialement
thierry
With the last settings recommended for blitz, I run a match between Rybka 3 and Rybka 4 on a powerfull 6 cores hardware.
after 261 games played, Rybka 4 is only 5 ELO stronger than Rybka 3 !
So for me the purchase is worthless !!!
regards
after 261 games played, Rybka 4 is only 5 ELO stronger than Rybka 3 !
So for me the purchase is worthless !!!
regards
With this result something must be clearly wrong with your setup.
what time control & what settings?
Well, I am somehow tired to always write that as what ever it was as long as it is still in " reasonnable" time controls, it should perform better than that.
It was 3min blitz games with ponder off and no Large pages.
It was 3min blitz games with ponder off and no Large pages.
i mean, what time control settings for rybka 4?
Sorry, but something is definitely wrong there. You should be getting at least +60 ELO with your hardware. Are you testing with neutral books truncated at say 8 moves? If you are using your Playchess book and you are leaving it at many moves, then you are not really testing the engine but testing the book. There is not question that R4 is much stronger than R3 on ANY hardware and any TC.
Sorry to say but both, CEGT and CCRL says else.
In all testings I did, It was between 5 and 28 ELO stronger than Rybka 3.
In all testings I did, It was between 5 and 28 ELO stronger than Rybka 3.
OK then 5 ELO it is.
I am using R3D on the CB server and that 5 Elo is really kicking my ass there! I don't know what the testers are doing, but R4 certainly seems MUCH stronger than R3 and comes up with a lot of game changing moves.
This seems to be very dependend on hardware used.
Also it only seems that R4 is performing better when using 8 cores or maybe more....
Also it only seems that R4 is performing better when using 8 cores or maybe more....
Many of the beta testers are big hardware guys, so I would expect big hardware to do well, but the ratings lists seem to tell a different story. Anyway, I've been impressed with R4's play, and I'm surprised it hasn't scored better on the ratings lists.
I am also using a "big" hardware as it is an i7 980x clocked at 4 GHz.
Despite that, I had more similar results to the independent testers like CEGT and CCRL than the Rybka beta testers.
So why do we have this difference, is unknown.
But it is there.
PS: what should be the current conclusion ? No or few bugs but unstable results ?
To summarize my fustration which may have been written too much here :
Rybka 1 to 3 are Rolls Royce/Meteorites within computer chess
Rybka 4 is very disappointing as strengh is supposed to be the main focus of Vas.
That said, I will keep my eyes open to what happens on the market as others are now closing the gap.
Despite that, I had more similar results to the independent testers like CEGT and CCRL than the Rybka beta testers.
So why do we have this difference, is unknown.
But it is there.
PS: what should be the current conclusion ? No or few bugs but unstable results ?
To summarize my fustration which may have been written too much here :
Rybka 1 to 3 are Rolls Royce/Meteorites within computer chess
Rybka 4 is very disappointing as strengh is supposed to be the main focus of Vas.
That said, I will keep my eyes open to what happens on the market as others are now closing the gap.
I made many of my tests on 12 core computers - but with ponder on. So Rybka 4 got "only" 6 cores. And all of my results were good. So you should also get good results with 6 cores.
Hi Lukas,
Thanks for your answer and clarification.
OK, so what ever is wrong on my computer and CEGT/CCRL, this is not related to Rybka scoring better on 8 cores or more.
But it is still TBD.
regards
Thanks for your answer and clarification.
OK, so what ever is wrong on my computer and CEGT/CCRL, this is not related to Rybka scoring better on 8 cores or more.
But it is still TBD.
regards
There is nothing special about using a number of cores which is a power of 2, the performance curve should be smooth.
Vas
Vas
Vas,
This is now understood after Lukas comment.
What is now to explain is why does beta Rybka testers have different results than official organizations testing engines and also many other customers.
regards
This is now understood after Lukas comment.
What is now to explain is why does beta Rybka testers have different results than official organizations testing engines and also many other customers.
regards
The standard timings we chose for repeated time controls were not optimal. Sorry for that. With adjusted time control Rybka is much better:
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/404.live/
Also they don't use all new features of Rybka like large pages and SSE4.2. In my tests I also use a set of 117 GB tablebases. Rybka can take advantage of that, Stockfish can't.
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/404.live/
Also they don't use all new features of Rybka like large pages and SSE4.2. In my tests I also use a set of 117 GB tablebases. Rybka can take advantage of that, Stockfish can't.
There are two issues.
One is that the default time management settings aren't best for "movestogo" time controls. This was the results of a bias in our testing.
The second is that we dropped contempt by default. This was a necessary step which will give us a one-time ding on the rating lists.
Vas
One is that the default time management settings aren't best for "movestogo" time controls. This was the results of a bias in our testing.
The second is that we dropped contempt by default. This was a necessary step which will give us a one-time ding on the rating lists.
Vas
i tested rybka 4 on a 12 core machine; it's performance was what you would expect. as vas says it is not 'better' on 8 cores (any more than you would expect), though it may be better than some or even all of its opponents on 8 cores, due to superior scaling. however because scaling deficiency remains rybka on one core given 8x as much time should perform a bit better than rybka on 8 cores. anyone can test this (or use 4 core vs 8 core to make the games much shorter) if they have the hardware; unfortunately i don't have access & am now saving for cloud rybka.
the only possible thing i can think of is rybka 4 really takes advantage of breadth with 8+ cores, maybe due to some discovery w/ cluster code, which is said to have a very broad search. but again, in my tests with 12 cores this wasn't the case. moves were found @ similar depth across h/w spectrums.
the only possible thing i can think of is rybka 4 really takes advantage of breadth with 8+ cores, maybe due to some discovery w/ cluster code, which is said to have a very broad search. but again, in my tests with 12 cores this wasn't the case. moves were found @ similar depth across h/w spectrums.
> the only possible thing i can think of is rybka 4 really takes advantage of breadth with 8+ cores, maybe due to some discovery w/ cluster code, which is said to have a very broad search. but again, in my tests with 12 cores this wasn't the case. moves were found @ similar depth across h/w spectrums.
Rybka 4's search is slightly "broader" when more cores are used. More cores will win in fixed-depth tests, for example. It's a small difference, though.
Vas
Rybka 4's time management was specially designed with Ponder on in mind, AFAIK.
That's what counts most when playing on Playchess ;)
That's how I did all of my own testing.
The problem is that ponder-on with self-play is not the best way to test time management, due to the huge ponderhit rates.
Vas
The problem is that ponder-on with self-play is not the best way to test time management, due to the huge ponderhit rates.
Vas
Right now Rybka is best chess entity in the universe. How do I know? Just check rating of engines and you will always see Rybka on the top.
Computer chess fans should always tell you this. It is strange that someone says Hiarcs is best - even Hiarcs fans should be a little critical to realise that their positions is not on the top.
Computer chess fans should always tell you this. It is strange that someone says Hiarcs is best - even Hiarcs fans should be a little critical to realise that their positions is not on the top.
Considering that there are no any playing chess aliens for which we do not know :))))))))
Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Is Rybka 4 the best chess program in the world?
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