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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Support / Large Pages in Rybka 4
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Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-05-31 14:10
Large pages work very well on XP x64 - at least for me.
Did you follow the instructions about gpedit.msc ?
Does your computer have enough RAM?
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-05-31 15:42
Hi Kullberg:
   I have 4 gig of RAM and give 2048 to Rybka for hash.
   The instruction are easy till the last step: "In Select Users or Groups dialog, add an account with privileges to run slqservr.exe".
  I have no idea what that means. What did you do?
                     Thanks, CMA
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-05-31 15:50
You won't be  able to use 2 GB hash with large pages when you've only got 4 GB of RAM.
Did you follow the instructions in the pdf attached to the first post? Please do so - but try "Everyone" in the policy setting for "Lock pages in memory".
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-05-31 15:59 Edited 2010-05-31 16:04
Kullberg:
I got up to the part where it said log on and log off. Would reboot accomplish the same thing?
Anyway, I guess the issue is moot since you say the 4 gig total RAM is too little to use for Large Pages?
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-05-31 16:32
A reboot may help.
Maybe you try 1024 MB hash. This with large pages should be better than 2 GB without.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-31 16:38
I have printed an example up above where a 2GB hash of large pages is used with 4 GB of RAM under XP64. This does require:

1) Not having all kinds of crap services running,
2) Not having other programs initiating at startup,
3) Creating a personality with large pages checked, and
4) Grabbing the huge pages right after booting up.

This does not require locking pages in memory (which MS says is unnecessary with 64-bit systems). Unfortunately, resolving items 1 & 2 might not be possible for many users, either because they want all that crap running in the background, or because they are not computer literate enough to get rid of it.
Parent - - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-05-31 17:16
That's great news :)

>1) Not having all kinds of crap services running


:lol: That's always a very good idea
Do you remember the times when computer magazines started attaching CDs with free software stating that stuff is worth $500 or more?
It was then I learned you should never try such stuff else you'd have to do a format c: and OS installation after each of these CDs.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-05-31 21:13
I am very suspicious about any software that I am not familiar with or don't feel I really need. But I still have some problems relating to having applications that facilitate my engineering work on machines also used for chess. For example, I put in an HP wireless printer a few years ago and was amazed at all the ancillary trash that came along with it. This included a bunch of services to nag me when it felt I needed to buy more printer drums from HP, along with several programs that initiated at startup doing God-knows what (one of them wanted to organize all of my picture files). After fighting a losing battle trying to get rid of all this while keeping my printing capability, I finally traded this in for a Canon printer which is much less obtrusive. Adobe acrobat is another prime offender with all kinds of services and startup routines (and the services even put stuff back in the startup list after you take it out!).

I suspect your machines are all dedicated, which makes life a lot easier, but I've noticed that many users that are less anal retentive about these things than I am frequently have all kinds of issues that they are, at best, vaguely aware of.
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) [hr] Date 2010-05-31 23:22

> For example, I put in an HP wireless printer a few years ago and was amazed at all the ancillary trash that came along with it. This included a bunch of services to nag me when it felt I needed to buy more printer drums from HP, along with several programs that initiated at startup doing God-knows what (one of them wanted to organize all of my picture files). After fighting a losing battle trying to get rid of all this while keeping my printing capability, I finally traded this in for a Canon printer which is much less obtrusive.


http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers
LOL
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-05-31 23:52
Now I'm really confused about the necessity of locking memory in Windows XP Pro x-64. A couple of you experts say it must be done, while BigBen and Banned for Life say that locking pages in memory is unnecessary.
   I think I understand #s 1)-3) but what does "Grabbing the huge pages right after booting up" mean?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-01 00:13

> but what does "Grabbing the huge pages right after booting up" mean?


The computer boots up. The first thing that you do is loading the GUI that has already loaded the Rybka 4 personality with large pages ON (e.g. if you open a browser first, or something, it would not work).
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-01 00:32
Vytron, thanks. In other words, "Go directly to Aquariuam/Rybka"; do not do anything else. My Deep Rbyka 64 engine was given 2048 MB hash size.
Based on my log file, does this look like Large Pages is working (or perhaps using only 32 MB of RAM, which would be a failure)?
My log file has this:
setoption name Use Large Pages value true
                Use large pages enabled.
                  -- shared synchronization file: RybkaSync12160
                  -- shared exchange file: RybkaEx22160
           Using large pages, size = 33554432
                Using large pages, size = 33554432
                  starting child
                  -- hash size: 32
                  -- shared file number: 2
                  -- number of processes: 4
                  -- parent id: 2160
                  -- overridden parent id: 2160
                  -- child number: 3
                  -- full command line: "C:\Aquar4\Engines\Rybka\Multi-cpu\x64\Deep Rybka 4 x64.exe" 2160 4 32 2 4 3 2160
                  starting child
                  -- hash size: 32
                  -- shared file number: 2
                  -- number of processes: 4
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-01 01:19
Try with 64MB hash size.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-01 02:37
Perhaps I have been misreading the log. No matter what hash size I set in the engine personality, the log first shows hash size of 32. Lower down the log shows the hash size I set, e.g., with hash size set at 2048, the relevant part of the log follows below. The question: am I using 32 MB of RAM for the hash or 2048 MB of RAM for the hash. I note that as I moved the hash size up from 32 to 2048, kn/s moved up on the same position.

setoption name Use Large Pages value true
                Use large pages enabled.
                  -- shared synchronization file: RybkaSync12128
                  -- shared exchange file: RybkaEx22128
           Using large pages, size = 33554432
                Using large pages, size = 33554432
                  starting child
                  -- hash size: 32
                  -- shared file number: 2
                  -- number of processes: 4
                  -- parent id: 2128
                  -- overridden parent id: 2128
                  -- child number: 3
                  -- full command line: "C:\Aquar4\Engines\Rybka\Multi-cpu\x64\Deep Rybka 4 x64.exe" 2128 4 32 2 4 3 2128
                  starting child
                  -- hash size: 32
                  -- shared file number: 2
                  -- number of processes: 4
                  -- parent id: 2128
                  -- overridden parent id: 2128
                  -- child number: 2
                  -- full command line: "C:\Aquar4\Engines\Rybka\Multi-cpu\x64\Deep Rybka 4 x64.exe" 2128 4 32 2 4 2 2128
                  starting child
                  -- hash size: 32
                  -- shared file number: 2
                  -- number of processes: 4
                  -- parent id: 2128
                  -- overridden parent id: 2128
                  -- child number: 1
                  -- full command line: "C:\Aquar4\Engines\Rybka\Multi-cpu\x64\Deep Rybka 4 x64.exe" 2128 4 32 2 4 1 2128
                Children restarted.
      -->> setoption name Always Score Main Move value true
                Always score main move enabled.
      -->> setoption name Display Upperbounds value true
                Display upperbounds enabled.
      -->> setoption name Preserve Analysis value false
                Preserve analysis disabled.
      -->> setoption name Hash File value <empty>
                Hash file set to <empty>
      -->> setoption name Ponder value false
      -->> setoption name MultiPV_cp value 10000
                Displaying variations up to 10000 cp.
      -->> setoption name TC Buffer value 3
                TC Buffer set to 3 seconds
      -->> setoption name TC Normal Move Time value 80
                TC Normal Move Time set to 80
      -->> setoption name TC Max Move Time value 100
                TC Max Move Time set to 100
      -->> setoption name White Pawn cp value 0
                White pawn adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Black Pawn cp value 0
                Black pawn adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name White Knight cp value 0
                White knight adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Black Knight cp value 0
                Black knight adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name White King Bishop cp value 0
                White king bishop adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Black King Bishop cp value 0
                Black king bishop adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name White Queen Bishop cp value 0
                White queen bishop adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Black Queen Bishop cp value 0
                Black queen bishop adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name White Rook cp value 0
                White rook adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Black Rook cp value 0
                Black rook adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name White Queen cp value 0
                White queen adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Black Queen cp value 0
                Black queen adjustment value set to 0 cp
      -->> setoption name Rook Endgame Scaling value 100
                Rook endgame scaling set to 100 percent.
      -->> setoption name UCI_EngineAbout value www.rybkachess.com
      -->> setoption name Hash value 2048
                  -- shared synchronization file: RybkaSync12128
                  -- shared exchange file: RybkaEx32128
   2       Using large pages, size = 2147483648
                Using large pages, size = 2147483648
   3              starting child
                  -- hash size: 2048
                  -- shared file number: 3
                  -- number of processes: 4
                  -- parent id: 2128
                  -- overridden parent id: 2128
                  -- child number: 3
Parent - By keoki010 (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-06-01 19:12
Looks like you are using large pages and your hash is set to 2048
Parent - By hal9000 (**) [no] Date 2010-05-31 12:12
She reports the same thing whether large pages are being used or not. This doesn't seem to be a reliable way to detect whether LP is being used, at least not in Windows 7.
Parent - By mocha1961 (***) [us] Date 2010-05-31 12:59
is the LP under the task manager.exe in windows task manager?
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [pl] Date 2010-06-04 13:48

> Do you know if there's any significant performance hit when using the log during blitz games? The log can be very useful for verifying that large pages is being used, but if it reduces performance I don't want to use it for blitz.


The performance hit is negligible.

Vas
Parent - - By FWCC (***) [us] Date 2010-06-01 22:56
How do I adjust the amount of Ram for Large Pages use.I have 9 GIGs of Ram.i7 920 W7
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-02 05:24
Just like you adjust ram when Large pages is off.
Parent - - By ernest (****) [fr] Date 2010-06-02 01:43
Hi Lukas,

I have a Core2 Duo with XP Pro x64, but only 2 GB memory (which leaves 1.7 GB to be used for applications).

Should I forget about Large Pages, or can I still do something?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-02 05:27

> Should I forget about Large Pages, or can I still do something?


I have 1GB and use large pages just fine, just make it the first thing that loads after booting up, and try low RAM values until it works.
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-06-02 06:56
I've got no 64 bit computer with less than 6 GB RAM, so I can't tell you. But basically it should work - like Vytron says.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-06 23:46
Hi Kullberg:
For the new Intel 6-core chip, would you recommend 12 GB?
                             CMA6
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-06-07 04:54
Yes
- - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-01 18:55 Edited 2010-06-01 19:08
With large pages operational thanks to experts Vytron and Vempele, I notice anecdotally that I get higher Kn/s from Deep Rybka 4 x64 and naturally higher temperatures. Does that make sense?
Parent - By Vempele (Silver) [fi] Date 2010-06-01 19:00
Yes.
- - By irakianchess Date 2010-06-02 19:09 Edited 2010-06-02 19:15
Subject: Re: Deep Rybka 4 Engine And Some Notes   Fri May 28, 2010 12:13 am    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi guys!

Could someone explain me better how to see if Rybka 4 is using the Large Pages in Windows Professional XP x64? I did the following (under Fritz 11 GUI):

1. Engine --> Change Main Engine --> Engine Parameters and a window pops-up.

2. I checked Log and Use Large Pages, and then Save. Another window pops-up and I am asked if wanna save DeepRybka4x64 in Engine Parameter folder. I clicked on Save.

Is it ok so far?

If it is, what's next? Vas said "load the Rybka engine and look in the log". How can I perform these two steps? I searched for the log file and nothing found.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-03 08:39
You activate the Log box on parameters.
- - By irakianchess Date 2010-06-03 09:34 Edited 2010-06-03 09:38
"2. I checked Log..."

I said before that I did this.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-03 09:59
Load the engine that you saved (the one that has large pages on and log on).
- - By irakianchess Date 2010-06-03 14:46 Edited 2010-06-03 14:51
If "Load the engine that you saved" means to start a new game after saving the engine parameters, then I did it, too. But still not find the log. Where is it?

And why after closing and looking again to the engine parameters' window the "Use Large Pages" box is unchecked?
Parent - By Ray (****) Date 2010-06-03 18:28
The log is in the same folder as the engine.
- By irakianchess Date 2010-06-03 21:52 Edited 2010-06-03 21:57
Unfortunately, not in my case. :( Could be something wrong with my Fritz 11?
- - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-05 17:05
I will be having built a new i7-980X six-core machine for Rybka in July. What size RAM would the experts recommend to best use Large Pages?
  (I have been very happy with the Large Pages implementation on my Q66 machine with only 4 gig. of RAM.)
                                  Thanks, CMA
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-06 00:54

> What size RAM would the experts recommend to best use Large Pages?


The biggest one you could give while it still works (i.e. when you go over this then Large pages will not work at all).
- - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-06 15:33
Vytron, give me a hint: 12 gig., 16 gig., 24 gig.? How big is too big?
   There is also the issue that even on a 64-bit system, Rybka still seems limited to only 3 gig. of hash size. Does this have nothing to do with the amount of RAM used by Large Pages?
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-07 06:13
Large pages require more RAM to work than normal usage. It's funny, after clean reboot I have 600MB of RAM free, after loading Rybka with 128MB and LP on, I'll end with 750MB free, as if it freed RAM instead of using it. I'm not from the people that live at the edge of speed, best moves are found faster with right evaluation than with faster search.

Anyway, try your total RAM divided by 4, if that doesn't work, try it divided by 8.
Parent - - By cma6 (****) Date 2010-06-07 23:53 Edited 2010-06-07 23:57
Vytron:
  The significance of total RAM/4 or RAM/8: is that for Rybka hash size?  (In which case, what about the limit of only 3 gig. usuable hash size no matter what?).
   My question was meant to be more inclusive (in which case, Kullberg may have already answered it): Taking into consideration both maximum usable Rybka hash size and optimal implementation of Large Pages, what is the suggested RAM for a new system built around Intel 6-core CPU?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-06-08 00:16
It should be the same no matter the system, what matters is your total RAM (and how much the system uses after booting up.)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-06-08 15:56
With successful use of huge pages, the more hash the better. A potential problem with small pages is that some pages will get swapped out, causing a huge drop in performance. Huge pages can't be swapped out, so if you are successful in starting Rybka with huge pages, you will get all the advantages of the larger hash, with none of the disadvantages.
Parent - - By Ray (****) Date 2010-06-08 17:08
Yes. But the question is:  is large pages of any benefit for small hash sizes, say 128MB, 256MB ? Or would you simply not bother ?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-06-08 17:14
Small pages are 4KB in size. 128MB / 4KB = 32K. Your machine does not have 32K entries in its TLB so you will be thrashing and using close to two memory accesses for each hash access. This is bad. Large pages will reduce this number to 1 memory access per hash access and give you a noticeable improvement in speed.
Parent - - By Ray (****) Date 2010-06-08 18:56
Thanks, so it is beneficial even for very small hash sizes.
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) [de] Date 2010-06-09 10:16
Yes. But there's no good reason except limited RAM to use small hash sizes when large pages are working.
- - By BOARDSCRATCHER (*) [gb] Date 2010-06-18 16:41
Am I right in saying once you start Rybka as administrator you go into Deep Rybka 4, Engine Parameters, then tick use large pages and press OK.

Is there no way to save the parameters with use large pages already ticked?
Parent - - By keoki010 (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-06-18 21:46
Depends what gui you are using!
Parent - - By BOARDSCRATCHER (*) [gb] Date 2010-06-18 22:03
Hello Keoki010,

Rybka 3 - Chessbase.
Parent - Date 2010-06-19 02:58
[topic branch moved]
Parent - - By keoki010 (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-06-19 14:48
Sorry I don't use Chessbase.  Someone on here will help you though.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Support / Large Pages in Rybka 4
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